DP2M In Perspective

Started Jan 23, 2013 | Discussions
jcollier
OP jcollier Forum Member • Posts: 83
Re: DP2M In Perspective

The legendary early photographers accepted the limitations of their equipment and created timeless images through hard work and talent without complaining. The DPXMs are capable of stellar performance under the right conditions in capable hands. Those that can, do. Those that can't, complain.

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jcollier

richard stone Senior Member • Posts: 2,852
Re: DP2M In Perspective

jcollier wrote:

Actually, the point is to understand the limitations of one's equipment and how to maximize its capabilities for the intended purpose. It seems that many people on the forum are consumed by analyzing imperfections of the tools rather than going out and using them to make great images. My Galaxy S2 phone camera takes good pictures. There are many cameras that can make great images if you know how to use them. "Learning" is a work in progress.

Thanks. Yes, exactly.

It's a choice whether to accept the limitations of a camera if you feel you feel you want to use it for a specific use, as compared to some other camera. And clearly learning is part of the process too.

Many people are praising Sigma for having produced the most recent batch of cameras. Even if they are imperfect and limited. And, for those who don't like the the Sigma cameras or think the camera/sensor doesn't really matter, buy and use a different brand of camera, if you think that's best for you.

Richard

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Laurence Matson
Laurence Matson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,969
Re: I think they cared

Roland Karlsson wrote:

DMillier wrote:

Absolutely true. It has long been my opinion that it matters not in the slightest what camera you use.

Hmmm ... I dont know David.

Those old good photographers did carry around large cameras after all. They did that for a reason. You could find much smaller and convenient cameras back then.

So - I assume they cared very much about what camera they used.

They did indeed care. In many ways, they were bigger gearheads than we are today for precisely the reason Roland mentioned. If you set out for a summer in the Sierras, you goldurn made sure that you hand the finest felt-lined, light-tight wooded cases, that you had replaced the springs on the shutters, that the screws on your tripods were in perfect working order. And you also did not even dream of taking just some old lens mounted on some old bellows.

In addition, these guys were reinventing the processes for developing substrates all the time. Later, the focus was on maximizing dynamic range (Minor White and later Ansel); ask Zone8, he knows.

Even today, the people, who hold to this traditional form of large-scale photographers, are very much in tune with their equipment and its quality.

http://www.viewcamera.com/

Alpa mines the same vein in the digital realm.

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MoreorLess Veteran Member • Posts: 4,585
Re: DP2M In Perspective
1

jcollier wrote:

The legendary early photographers accepted the limitations of their equipment and created timeless images through hard work and talent without complaining. The DPXMs are capable of stellar performance under the right conditions in capable hands. Those that can, do. Those that can't, complain.

Again to me the mindset your attributing to them is simpley wrong, they naturally accepted the limations of the equipment as it existed then(what else could they do?) but they clearly were well aware of them and did there best to limate them.

If were talking landscape shooters after high resolution the kind of size tradoffs we saw were more taking the 4x5 camera out into the wild rather than the 8x10 or when they got older 6x6 medium format.

Of course for some people very small cameras really are the only option physically and I wouldnt disagree the DP's are probabley the most bang for your buck resolution wise(on digital anyway) but someone like Ansel Adams would laugh at the idea that something like the D800 was too bulky for an able bodied man to carry all day.

BarrytheB Veteran Member • Posts: 3,512
Re: You got that wrong

mroy wrote:

This has become a jeer, not a gear forum.

Best quote of this young year:)

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SigmaChrome Forum Pro • Posts: 10,380
Re: DP2M In Perspective

Of course for landscape use alone those newer advanatges arent an issue but were someone like Ansel around today in the shape he was in when he used large format I'm guessing he'd either still use it or the best digital alternative he could afford, be that a D800e, medium format DSLR or some kind of scan back, I doubt he'd use the the DP1 or DP2 M's to save what is ultimately a pretty minor amount of weight.

But he absolutely wouldn't use a Sigma SD1M... He would consider the Nikon D800e far superior, of course. I think it's truly uncanny that you know all this about a man who has been dead for over 28 years.

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MoreorLess Veteran Member • Posts: 4,585
Re: DP2M In Perspective

SigmaChrome wrote:

Of course for landscape use alone those newer advanatges arent an issue but were someone like Ansel around today in the shape he was in when he used large format I'm guessing he'd either still use it or the best digital alternative he could afford, be that a D800e, medium format DSLR or some kind of scan back, I doubt he'd use the the DP1 or DP2 M's to save what is ultimately a pretty minor amount of weight.

But he absolutely wouldn't use a Sigma SD1M... He would consider the Nikon D800e far superior, of course. I think it's truly uncanny that you know all this about a man who has been dead for over 28 years.

I don't "know" hence "I'm guessing" which is based on the fact that he used the highest resolution camera equipment that was possible to transport rather than say 35mm film.

aman74 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,002
Re: DP2M In Perspective

DMillier wrote:

That's certainly a strong argument against using zooms.

Scottish landscape photographer/educator Bruce Percy argues that zooms discourage the feet movement necessary to search out the strongest compositions and that you never learn instinctively what a subject will look like at a particular focal length because you have a continuously variable selection to hand.

I think there is something in it.

Is it really? It gives you more options....if you get lazy because of that, it's hardly the gears fault. If you don't have the self-discipline and need a fixed focal length or a tripod to slow you down, that's fine. However, it would be delusional to list these as advantages.

The counterpoint to the OP is that to best utilize one's equipment is always the goal. To deride modern features and performance because some people on a forum don't stress technique is a mistake. Again, the lack of performance isn't a feature.

And yes, I do have a DP2M. I'm just not into fooling myself.

Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,728
Re: More guessing

MoreorLess wrote:

I don't "know" hence "I'm guessing" which is based on the fact that he used the highest resolution camera equipment that was possible to transport rather than say 35mm film.

More guessing:

Medium format is bigger than 35 mm FF.

Scanning backs (e.g. betterlight) are even bigger.

And then we always can do stitching today.

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MoreorLess Veteran Member • Posts: 4,585
Re: More guessing

Roland Karlsson wrote:

MoreorLess wrote:

I don't "know" hence "I'm guessing" which is based on the fact that he used the highest resolution camera equipment that was possible to transport rather than say 35mm film.

More guessing:

Medium format is bigger than 35 mm FF.

Scanning backs (e.g. betterlight) are even bigger.

And then we always can do stitching today.

I'm not sure I understand your point, mine was that we know Ansel was willing to carry bulky 4x5 equipment around until age ment he found 6x6 easier to deal with. The most obvious conclusion to draw from that for me is that he'd likely have been willing to carry digital equipment of the same or lesser bulk thats still alot larger than a DP 1/2 M but provides greater resolution.

I'm not of course saying that everyone has to follow his example, the DP 1/2 M do as I said seem to provide the best low ISO image quality of any cameras there size so are obviously a good choice for people not willing to transport the bulk for whatever reason, if I had the funds I'd definately considered the DP1M as a backup I could take anywhere. Why not be happy with that rather than trying to create the impression there cameras that someone like Ansel would likely have considered?

Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,728
Re: More guessing

MoreorLess wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

MoreorLess wrote:

I don't "know" hence "I'm guessing" which is based on the fact that he used the highest resolution camera equipment that was possible to transport rather than say 35mm film.

More guessing:

Medium format is bigger than 35 mm FF.

Scanning backs (e.g. betterlight) are even bigger.

And then we always can do stitching today.

I'm not sure I understand your point, mine was that we know Ansel was willing to carry bulky 4x5 equipment around until age ment he found 6x6 easier to deal with. The most obvious conclusion to draw from that for me is that he'd likely have been willing to carry digital equipment of the same or lesser bulk thats still alot larger than a DP 1/2 M but provides greater resolution.

My point was more or less the same, with the addition that he might have considered larger cameras than a FF 35 mm.

Or ... maybe we are wrong altogether.

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NancyP Veteran Member • Posts: 5,891
Re: DP2M In Perspective

Using only one lens on an outing is an exercise in getting out of an unconscious or conscious rut. If you know that you are going to have unique opportunities requiring various lenses, then take the whole kit. If you are just kicking around the neighborhood, using just one lens may cause you to look a little harder for subjects and compositions that suit that lens.

The DP2M is a nice landscape/ abstract/ close up (with its close up lens) camera to take along if you aren't making photography the major or only activity. Maybe I would have been better served with one of the medium wide to medium telephoto zoom fixed lens compact cameras, but I do like the Foveon look. If you measure image quality per gram, DPxM cameras must be at or very near the top.

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NancyP Veteran Member • Posts: 5,891
I have always wanted to shoot 8" x 10" camera landscape from the peaks

particularly when it takes a day or so to get into position and another day to get back (carrying camping gear plus food and water on your back).

There are backpacks made for view cameras, f/64 is name of company (after the photographers' group). Who wants to go climbing with me?    No, the burro can't reach the top, not by a long shot.

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 37,303
Re: I think they cared

Roland Karlsson wrote:

DMillier wrote:

Absolutely true. It has long been my opinion that it matters not in the slightest what camera you use.

Hmmm ... I dont know David.

Those old good photographers did carry around large cameras after all. They did that for a reason. You could find much smaller and convenient cameras back then.

So - I assume they cared very much about what camera they used.

the masters I have seen on interviews and read about cared insofar as picking the tool but none of the stupid brand bickering or tool bickering because in the end, it's the photographer who creates the photograph and not the camera.

just look at what Andreas said as a good example:

Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are 
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great 
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s 
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what 
makes a good photograph.'

replace Nikon or Leica with whatever camera

look who he was

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 37,303
No they were not

They were not gear heads. They cared insofar as picking the tool for their need and done. None of that endless brand or tool bickering (I am talking about the real good photographers, not the film equivalents of digital gear heads)

Almost every good photographer I have seen interviewed or the like tends to say the same thing- it's not the camera nut the photographer that matters

Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are 
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great 
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s 
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what 
makes a good photograph.' 
spot on

Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

carlos roncatti
carlos roncatti Senior Member • Posts: 2,668
Re: DP2M In Perspective

jcollier wrote:

Actually, the point is to understand the limitations of one's equipment and how to maximize its capabilities for the intended purpose. It seems that many people on the forum are consumed by analyzing imperfections of the tools rather than going out and using them to make great images. My Galaxy S2 phone camera takes good pictures. There are many cameras that can make great images if you know how to use them. "Learning" is a work in progress.

The biggest limitation is what is behind the camera...and there is no camera that will make someone a better photographer. But even so, dpreview is far from the place to discuss that. One (probably) of the biggest photography websites in the world made its audience on gear reviews and gear forums that became very popular. Photography here, is the least important thing. Photo.net for instance, also very popular, is much more photography related than dpreview...

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DMillier Forum Pro • Posts: 20,595
Re: DP2M In Perspective

I recommend you read Bruce Percy's writings on image design, composition and the constraints of different equipmnet, it's thought provoking,

Another of his points is the importance of aspect ratio and in particular how aspect ratio changes where you stand when shooting an image and therefore the relationships between subject elements in the frame in the final composition. It's very insightful, especially his illustrations of the difficulty imposed by 3:2 ratio.

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Laurence Matson
Laurence Matson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,969
Re: No they were not

A gear head in my mind has less or nothing to do with brand loyalty or squabbles and much more to do with collecting, tinkering with, valuing and improving their gear collection.

Feininger's point you cite goes in that direction. But, he too, very much valued his Leica as did others of his generation. That tool shaped an entire generation of photography, and very few of them even picked up the very fine Zeiss Ikon equivalent for more than a second. I know why, because we had both in our family.

If you really read about how much emphasis and effort these guys and gals put into their gear, you might understand better the distinction I am trying to make. For instance, read River of Shadows. Muybridge worked hard at his craft and on his gear to develop stop-action photography and become one of the first great panorama photographers.

Otherwise, nice other thread.

Raist3d wrote:

They were not gear heads. They cared insofar as picking the tool for their need and done. None of that endless brand or tool bickering (I am talking about the real good photographers, not the film equivalents of digital gear heads)

Almost every good photographer I have seen interviewed or the like tends to say the same thing- it's not the camera nut the photographer that matters

Andreas Feininger (1906-1999) 'Photographers — idiots, of which there are
so many — say, “Oh, if only I had a Nikon or a Leica, I could make great
photographs.” That’s the dumbest thing I ever heard in my life. It’s
nothing but a matter of seeing, and thinking, and interest. That’s what
makes a good photograph.'
spot on

Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

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Laurence
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BobNL Veteran Member • Posts: 5,122
And...

They didn't have a DPReview forum. So we'd never know. Maybe they were complaining like there's no tomorrow to their wives

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jcollier
OP jcollier Forum Member • Posts: 83
Re: And...

LOL...I'm sure they were complaining about a wide range of problems. They went on "photography expeditions" not "photo outings". I have no doubt that they would have loved to have todays equipment. They didn't, but that didn't stop them from creating timeless images.

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jcollier

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