Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

Started Jan 22, 2013 | Discussions
pavi1 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,866
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?
1

pipee wrote:

pavi1 wrote:

Well Duh right back at you. You want a camera that thinks for you, the rest want the camera to do as it is told. Guess they can't make everyone happy.

What are you on about?

It sounds like you are the one who wants a camera that thinks for you. Did you tell the camera to overwrite the minimum iso setting in the Auto ISO menu? No. So why should it do it when it was not 'told to"?

If you still don't understand this, learn to use the camera.

My camera performs just as it was designed to perform. I have learned how it performs and have succesfully captured nearly 100,000 near perfectly exposed and focused pictures. So yes I know how it works and do not spend my time crying over something I can not change. Grow up or sell your Nikon and buy a brand that works like you think it should.

My camera has never done anything I did not tell it to do, right or wrong. If yours is broke get it fixed and quit crying.

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5tve Contributing Member • Posts: 678
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?
1

pipee wrote:

Some of the people in this thread who are defending Nikon boggles my mind.

Setting the minimum ISO to the last used ISO when switching into Auto ISO is a stupid idea.

No its not it  makes perfect sense to me, if I set the ISO to 1600 I don't want the camera overriding my choice.  If you want ISO 100 it only takes a second to set it.

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pipee Forum Member • Posts: 81
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

pavi1 wrote:

pipee wrote:

pavi1 wrote:

Well Duh right back at you. You want a camera that thinks for you, the rest want the camera to do as it is told. Guess they can't make everyone happy.

What are you on about?

It sounds like you are the one who wants a camera that thinks for you. Did you tell the camera to overwrite the minimum iso setting in the Auto ISO menu? No. So why should it do it when it was not 'told to"?

If you still don't understand this, learn to use the camera.

My camera performs just as it was designed to perform. I have learned how it performs and have succesfully captured nearly 100,000 near perfectly exposed and focused pictures. So yes I know how it works and do not spend my time crying over something I can not change. Grow up or sell your Nikon and buy a brand that works like you think it should.

My camera has never done anything I did not tell it to do, right or wrong. If yours is broke get it fixed and quit crying.

The whole point of this thread is this thing that we cannot change. If we can change it, we wouldn't be talking about it.

So why are you here?

pipee Forum Member • Posts: 81
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

5tve wrote:

pipee wrote:

Some of the people in this thread who are defending Nikon boggles my mind.

Setting the minimum ISO to the last used ISO when switching into Auto ISO is a stupid idea.

No its not it makes perfect sense to me, if I set the ISO to 1600 I don't want the camera overriding my choice. If you want ISO 100 it only takes a second to set it.

So you want the camera to pick ISO's above 1600 if the scene is dark, but you don't want it to go below 1600 if the scene is bright?

Pradipta Dutta
Pradipta Dutta Veteran Member • Posts: 9,782
Re: Regardless how hard you say, you are still wrong olyflyer

pavi1 wrote:

When speaking of ISO, there are three minimums. First there is your camera's minimum ISO(200 on my D300S), then there is the minimum you have selected

No, you don't select any minimum. The Auto ISO setting only has Maximum ISO selection. You cannot select any Minimum. It is always set to the native minimum ISO, which is 100 for D800, 200 for D3, etc.

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olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,359
I give up.

Pradipta Dutta wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

"We" don't fool ourselves at all. Only you are fooling yourself, defending the Nikon manual ad infinitum.

No, you did and continue to do so.

You also not seem to understand why it does differently upwards than downwards.

And you seem to not understand logic.

Raising ISO above the maximum ISO would violate the settings, after all it is called Maximum ISO.

The same logic applies to Minimum ISO, which means ISO never goes below that point. And clearly that is 100 for D800, not the base ISO set in the camera as you yourself have seen.

You don't seem to get it, so I give up. You win.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,359
Fine, there is really nothing more to say than...

Pradipta Dutta wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

Pradipta Dutta wrote:

No. ISO varies between 100 and max value set in the camera.

Why did you mutilate my post and twist it into something I have NOT said? Are you doing it just so that you have something to argue about or is it because you did not understand what I have written?

The ISO will be lowered below the base ISO ONLY if the ISO base, shutter speed and aperture will result in overexposure. The variation is NOT between ISO 100 and the maximum ISO, but between the Auto ISO base and the maximum ISO. The camera will keep the ISO as near the Auto ISO base as possible if it needs to go below to avoid overexposure.

I am not mutilation anything. It is you who continues to come up with complex logic and not seem to understand what Minimum means.

Do this simple test -

I have done all the testing I am ready to do in this subject. I know EXACTLY how it is working, so any more test is pointless because it will result in the same as before.

Is it because you immediately prove that the camera really operates between ISO values 100 and the max value set by the user? So, that proves your point wrong.

The camera will keep as high ISO as possible, as near as possible to ISO3200, but in my opinion this is a faulty, wrong setup for a test. The reason to set high base ISO is to be able to keep high shutter speed, and in your proposed test, in bright condition this is not realistic. Set base ISO to ISO1600 and shutter speed to 1/500 and see what happens...

I will not get into the Auto ISO algorithm. Only thing I stressing on is you are wrongly concluding that minimum ISO is the ISO value set in the camera. Instead it is actually 100 for D800.

The camera behaves exactly same as written in the user manual - minimum value of ISO is always 100. For D3, it used to always 200.

The camera will keep as high ISO as possible, as near as possible to the base ISO. In your "test" scenario the camera will most probably go down to ISO100, assuming it is bright enough, and that's exactly what I'd expect it to do. This is NOT described in the manual, so the way I see it, the manual is wrong because it is not explaining what is happening and how it is working.

Just as it goes down to ISO 100, it proves my point. I have already proven it. If you test, you will prove it as well.

Repeat the test with Aperture set to F/22 and Shutter Speed to 1/8000. What you will notice is the ISO maxes out at 6400 even though the images are under exposed. What this whole exercise proves is ISO varies between 100 and max value set in the camera in Auto ISO mode.

This whole exercise is pointless unless you create a useful test scenario. Of course if the conditions are bright enough the camera will go to ISO 100 and of course if the conditions are dark then the camera will go to maximum ISO, so the test scenario you defined is totally pointless because it has only one goal, to create a scenario to proof that the manual is right. This is not the way complex systems are tested and test scenarios are created.

Please stop mutilating my post just so that you can continue this pointless arguments to fit your agenda. If you don't understand what I am saying ask for clarification. My English is not perfect since it is a foreign language for me, so maybe I am not as clear as you wish me to be, but mutilating my posts won't improve clarity, since through your mutilation the message I was giving is twisted to nonsense.

I am not mutilating anything. It is you who acknowledges that camera goes down to ISO 100 but continues to argue that 100 is not the Minimum value. Simply accept that you are wrong.

...what's been said here.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,359
He doesn't understand it, so you should give up as well.

pavi1 wrote:

Pradipta Dutta wrote:

I am not mutilation anything. It is you who continues to come up with complex logic and not seem to understand what Minimum means.


When speaking of ISO, there are three minimums. First there is your camera's minimum ISO(200 on my D300S), then there is the minimum you have selected, and third on my camera there is L1.0. Just saying the word minimum does not identify what you are talking about without more information.

When you set ISO 800 and then turn on auto ISO, ISO will not go below 800 unless you hit a "wall".

A mode the wall is S maxes out and ISO needs to go below the base you have set to prevent overexposure.

S mode the wall is A maxes out and ISO needs to go below the base you have set to prevent overexposure.

M mode, if the S & A you select will result in overexposure, ISO will go below the base you have set to prevent overexposure.

Now I suppose we can start a long argument over the meaning of the work "base".

In my three examples, base means the ISO I set in the camera, not the manufactured base.

He will NEVER admit that you or I are right, just keeps parroting that the manual is right, when the manual only describes the absolute minimum value the Auto ISO can use. It never goes down to ISO50, so in that sense the minimum ISO is 100. He is just twisting words, that's all, that's why he ripped out that sentence from my post. That sentence alone is nonsense, but it fits his agenda of claiming that he is right and I am wrong.

It doesn't matter, this is the Internet...

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,359
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

OutOfFocus student wrote:

olyflyer wrote:

OutOfFocus student wrote:

1. I agree (and know) that it will go below MIN ISO if the shutter speed has hit its ceiling. But that's essentially irrelevant for most shooting conditions.

No, it will NEVER go below Minimum ISO. There is only one minimum ISO and you can not set that. What you can set is ISO sensitivity level, which is the base ISO for Auto ISO. Minimum ISO is fixed to 100 in the camera.

What I refer to as MIN is what is used as minimum ISO (in analogy to MAX iso). I think you refer to it as base ISO (which certainly isn't a good name for it)

The minimum ISO for the sensor is ISO 100. The "base" ISO for Auto ISO is NOT the minimum ISO, it is called "ISO sensitivity level". By using the same word for both you are causing confusion. You are calling the "ISO sensitivity level" value Minimum ISO, and that is wrong. The camera will NEVER go below the "Minimum ISO" in Auto ISO, but will go below the user defined "ISO sensitivity level" value if necessary.

2. You need to set it to ISO 100 before you can turn it off. That's why two wheels are necessary and you want is lost setting is lost.

To turn what off? The Auto ISO? No, you don't need to set to ISO100 before you can turn Auto ISO off.

In A mode just turning autoISO off causes the most recent ISO to be used as MIN ISO. This is the non-sense since in most situations I want ISO 100 to be the minimum.

It is NOT the Minimum ISO, it is the "ISO sensitivity level" value defined by you, the user. The fact that switching off Auto ISO returns the camera to that level is NOT nonsense at all, at least not for me. I would hate it if it would automatically drop to ISO 100. If you want ISO 100 to be the "ISO sensitivity level" value then you can set it to that value to start with. There is no need to use anything else unless conditions demand it.

3. I still have not heard a single good reason to have ISO lower bounded (there are many good reasons to have it otherwise).

The reason to have a base minimum is to make sure you can keep a certain shutter speed and aperture combination. If you for example know that the camera will lower the shutter speed too much for your scenario and if you know that the light is variable there is all the reason one needs to set a higher than ISO100 as base ISO, but no, there is no reason to keep that and create a lot of overexposed images. Technically it is easier to save an underexposed than an overexposed image, so nor raising the maximum ISO but lowering the base ISO is a very good approach.

As explained controlling shutter via ISO is inconvenient and perverse.

So, everything you don't understand or not need "is inconvenient and perverse"... How old are you actually? None of my business of course, but you sound like 17.

That's why we have min shutter settings and S mode.

That's not the same, but never mind.

And anyone who finds this sensible please explain why in M and A modes it behaves differently?

The D800 Auto ISO behaves exactly the same way in A, M and S modes.

Well, I'm talking about D600.

I know that, but what's the difference between the two in this respect? Explain, please.

In A-priority: The aperture is kept constant and the ISO is variable between the "ISO sensitivity level" and Maximum ISO values as long as this will not result in overexposure. If there is a risk for that then the ISO will be lowered, but kept as near as possible to the "ISO sensitivity level" value defined by the user.

In S-priority: The shutter speed is kept constant and the ISO is variable between the "ISO sensitivity level" and Maximum ISO values as long as this will not result in overexposure. If there is a risk for that then the ISO will be lowered, but kept as near as possible to the "ISO sensitivity level" value defined by the user.

In M-mode: Both the shutter speed and the aperture are kept constant and the ISO is variable between the "ISO sensitivity level" and Maximum ISO values as long as this will not result in overexposure. If there is a risk for that then the ISO will be lowered, but kept as near as possible to the "ISO sensitivity level" value defined by the user.

Is the D600 different from this?

This is pure nonsense that (as far as I know) no other manufacturer has. The only good thing about this system is that AutoISO is flexible enough that I almost never need to use manual ISO so I use manual ISO only in M which is implemented in a logical way.

I am open for suggestions... how could the Auto ISO be improved according to you?

The natural way for AutoISO to behave is to always allow going to ISO 100.

There is no such thing as "natural way". It may be YOUR preferred way, but it is not a rule of nature. Anyway, how would that be an improvement according to you? If you want ISO 100 to be the minimum ISO all the time then set the "ISO sensitivity level" value to ISO 100 and your problem is solved. With your logic there is no need for anything else anyway, so why bother changing it at all from the default ISO 100?

This is how it's implemented on all other camera systems I've seen.

Well, that does not mean Nikon is wrong, is it? I mean, every Nikon DSLR I know has this kind of logic and I like it more than any other cameras I used and seen, so for me this is much better and is definitely the preferred way of handling Auto ISO.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,359
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

OutOfFocus student wrote:

pavi1 wrote:

OutOfFocus student wrote:

tly?

The D800 Auto ISO behaves exactly the same way in A, M and S modes.

Well, I'm talking about D600.

They both work the same.

Well in D600 AutoISO behaves differently in A and M modes so if you are right then the behavior is not the same.

I am still waiting for your explanation about the differences.

The natural way for AutoISO to behave is to always allow going to ISO 100. This is how it's implemented on all other camera systems I've seen.

To always allow ISO to go to 100 is easy, set ISO to 100, then turn on auto ISO.

Duh! That's what requires using both scroll wheels and means that most recently used ISO is not preserved. In other words in A mode it's the most cumbersome way to switch between normal AutoISO and manual ISO selection.

So, what is it you actually want the camera to do? EXPLAIN, not just dismiss others.

If you want the camera to return to ISO 100 when you switch off Auto ISO, well then set "ISO sensitivity level" to ISO 100.

If you want the camera to return to the last used fixed ISO then set "ISO sensitivity level" to whatever you want to.

What is it you want the camera to do that is not possible to do today?

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,359
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

pipee wrote:

Some of the people in this thread who are defending Nikon boggles my mind.

Some of the people in this thread does not understand how their camera works nor are they willing (or capable) to understand, and that boggles my mind. Some read and quote the manual as if it was the bible, some just don't understand how the camera works so they claim that the designers are stupid.

Setting the minimum ISO to the last used ISO when switching into Auto ISO is a stupid idea.

Setting the minimum ISO to the last used ISO when switching into Auto ISO is the best idea about Nikon Auto ISO, apart from the fact that it is today even taking the focal length into account. That way I always know where I end up when switching Auto ISO off.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,359
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

pipee wrote:

The whole point of this thread is this thing that we cannot change.

The whole point of this thread is this thing called "Auto ISO" that some people cannot understand the logic behind.

If we can change it, we wouldn't be talking about it.

So the only reason to be here is whining over something you can't understand or change? Is that it? Sell your gear and get a better one, one which fits your needs and fills your demands.

So why are you here?

Right. If you don't like it fine, move on. There is no reason to keep a camera which is not working the way you want it to.

In my opinion the D800 (and the D600 also) has made a huge step forward in terms of Auto ISO. As far as I can see, it is the best implementation available today. It may not be perfect and I can think several ways of improving it as well, but never the less, there is no better implementation I know about on the market today.

However, the more complex newer cameras gets the more people will NOT understand how they are working. The fact that cameras are getting cheaper doesn't exactly help the situation. Too many people with considerably less needs and less technical understanding capacity are buying far too complex cameras today, so the number of pointless whining threads are just increasing. Instead of buying/reading books, reading - AND - understanding the manuals, learning about the technology and of course about photography they just whine about things they can not do anything about or don't understand.

olyflyer
olyflyer Forum Pro • Posts: 24,359
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

pipee wrote:

5tve wrote:

pipee wrote:

Some of the people in this thread who are defending Nikon boggles my mind.

Setting the minimum ISO to the last used ISO when switching into Auto ISO is a stupid idea.

No its not it makes perfect sense to me, if I set the ISO to 1600 I don't want the camera overriding my choice. If you want ISO 100 it only takes a second to set it.

So you want the camera to pick ISO's above 1600 if the scene is dark, but you don't want it to go below 1600 if the scene is bright?

That's not the way I read his words...

MayaTlab0
MayaTlab0 Senior Member • Posts: 2,526
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

olyflyer wrote:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

Or simply add a minimum ISO option in the auto ISO menu ? That way you get the best of both worlds.

No, it would be a pretty bad idea. A fixed minimum ISO would result in overexposure in some situations. I would not mind if they would have two different ISO sensitivity settings, one for the Auto ISO off and one to be used as base ISO for Auto ISO. That would give the best of both, but if there is just one item for this then I prefer the way it is.

Well that's what I intended to mean. Sorry if the use of the word "minimum' confused you. In fact it's basically exactly like the Canon implementation.

But all in all I don't see the point anyway of a minimum (or base) ISO in auto ISO. If the only reason you want to remain above 100 ISO in auto ISO is to get high enough shutter speeds, then that's exactly what the minimum shutter speed option is for. By that token I don't understand why the ISO selected in manual ISO is used as the base ISO in Nikon cameras.

MayaTlab0
MayaTlab0 Senior Member • Posts: 2,526
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

olyflyer wrote:

What is it you want the camera to do that is not possible to do today?

If I understand correctly, what he wants to do is to be able to de-couple manual ISO from the base ISO used in auto ISO.

Illustration :

You're in manual ISO, set to 400. You switch to auto ISO. It will now use ISO 400 as its base ISO, instead of the lowest regular ISO setting (100). If you want to change that, you change the ISO to 100. But then, when switching off auto ISO, you'll be at 100 ISO, not the initial 400 ISO.

With a Canon, you have the option to select a minimum ISO for the auto ISO mode. Example :

You're in manual ISO, set to 400. You switch to auto ISO. It will now use the minimum ISO selected as its base ISO (for example, 100 if you selected 100). If you switch auto ISO off, you're back at 400 ISO.

pipee Forum Member • Posts: 81
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

^^ Yes thanks for that Maya. Saved me typing a reply to those who don't get it.

5tve Contributing Member • Posts: 678
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

pipee wrote:

5tve wrote:

pipee wrote:

Some of the people in this thread who are defending Nikon boggles my mind.

Setting the minimum ISO to the last used ISO when switching into Auto ISO is a stupid idea.

No its not it makes perfect sense to me, if I set the ISO to 1600 I don't want the camera overriding my choice. If you want ISO 100 it only takes a second to set it.

So you want the camera to pick ISO's above 1600 if the scene is dark, but you don't want it to go below 1600 if the scene is bright?

Only when the camera runs of shutter speed I want the ISO dropped below what I've set to avoid overexposure.

The way Auto ISO works now it's pretty foolproof press the ISO button toggle Auto ISO with the front dial & while the ISO button is pressed the value you've set is shown in the viewfinder, the top LCD screen & the rear LCD screen if you have the info screen on, if you want to change it rotate the rear dial.

The only way you can mess up is if you don't know what ISO you set last time & you are too stupid to look at the camera to check the ISO when you press the ISO button.

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5tve Contributing Member • Posts: 678
Re: Anyone understands the point of Nikon's Auto ISO logic on D600?

pipee wrote:

^^ Yes thanks for that Maya. Saved me typing a reply to those who don't get it.

What I don't get is why worry about something so trivial once you know how the camera works why should it be an issue.

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Pradipta Dutta
Pradipta Dutta Veteran Member • Posts: 9,782
Re: He doesn't understand it, so you should give up as well.

olyflyer wrote:

He will NEVER admit that you or I are right

That is because you are wrong. It does not matter how you say. You are not only wrong but you are conflicting with what has been repeated mentioned in Nikon's documentation. You come up with your own explanation and continue to insult others.

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Pradipta Dutta
Pradipta Dutta Veteran Member • Posts: 9,782
Don't give up, but try to learn

olyflyer wrote:

You don't seem to get it, so I give up. You win.

You don't seem to get it actually. Firstly, you don't agree with what has been mentioned in Nikon's guides multiple times. Then, when outlined how to check it out, you come up with your own definition of "Minimum". What you don't seem to understand is the difference between "Starting" value and "Minimum" value. But you continue to inflict insult on others of having not understood.

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