D5200 Best in Class

Started Jan 18, 2013 | Discussions
Danel Senior Member • Posts: 2,905
Re: I agree wil Reilly Re: D5200 Best in Class

Yup, looks good.  Bodes well for the D7200 or what ever they will call it.  This whole, it does this, or that when I take it into an image editor and push it X number of stops, but only in the RAW file format, etc, etc, means less than nothing to me.  I use a camera to make photos not to play around "testing" what happens when I do weird things to the photos in an image editor.  If a camera produces good images in normal usage (taking photos of subjects that interest me) than I'm happy.

 Danel's gear list:Danel's gear list
Canon PowerShot SD800 IS Canon PowerShot G15 Nikon D7000 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm F1.8G Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II +5 more
Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 5,803
Here's a D5100 image for comparison
1

Pushed 7 stops. At 100% magnification you can only see tiny traces of banding. It becomes more noticeable when the image is "quick" downsampled by viewers. By comparison the D5200's banding is stronger, being noticeable even at 100% magnification. The D90/D5000 have no hint of banding even with a pure-black image pushed to pure noise (10+stops).

100% Crop:

Full 16MP image

mosswings Veteran Member • Posts: 8,201
Re: I agree wil Reilly Re: D5200 Best in Class
2

rhlpetrus wrote:

mosswings wrote:

Yes, Nikon did do its homework:

....

A home run, Reilly? Not in my playbook. A solid 2-base hit, something that had to happen to stay in the game. Taken from the total system perspective, more like a strategic bunt.

I think you are missing it Moss. Doubling the pixel count from D90 to D5200 and getting about same IQ characteristics at full res is big accomplishment. We are actually reaching, step by step, the technological limits of bayer sensor tech. Don't expect much more from that. Likely the next step will fast enough processing to shoot 2 or 3 images within 1/250s or less and blending them. That's about the only way to go over the present limits of 13-14EV of DR. Same for noise and color. So, I concur with Reilly, Nikon and Toshiba have hit a home run from what you know so far. And thinkmabout the strategic POV of Nikon getting rid of the dependence, snfar, on Sony, for the best sensor tech.

-- hide signature --

Renato. http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/ OnExposure member http://www.onexposure.net/ Good shooting and good luck (after Ed Murrow)

Renato, you've stated my point while saying that I've missed the point.  What we've got is an imaging chain that doubles the resolution over the D90 but keeps the noise levels of the D7000.  We should expect this, given that with sufficiently fine-scale photolithography there is little disadvantage to increasing pixel density.  That is exactly what we should expect Nikon would do if they opted for higher resolution. From a technological standpoint, if we extend the baseline for comparison arbitrarily far, new technology looks more and more like unfathomable magic.  The bar moved big time from the D80 to D90.  Huge change in bulk technology, 1.5 to 2 real stops of improvement in noise floor.  The bar moved again from the D90 to the D7000.  Not so much in ultimate DR, but in the evenness of the noise signature that created a lower average noise floor and wiped out very visible patterning flaws.  Now we're at the D5200, and we switched metal layer conductivity to keep sensel sizes as large as possible.  But the basic performance of the sensor didn't change much at all; it may be that the improvements we may see in our rendered images will be more perceptual in nature, or be the result of better smoothing that doesn't kill acuity.  Whatever, we still are dealing with sensors that can capture 4-6 stops more dynamic range than our viewing media.

Just to make sure we're clear, my point is this - what practical  home run has the D5200 hit? Can the user kick up the ISO another stop over the D7000 to hand hold in low light? Does it make it easier for the buyer to tolerate the f4-f5.6 DX zooms that are most of what Nikon offers for DX? After all, most buyers won't go farther than these lenses.  If we are at the upper limit of DX Bayer sensor technology, then the answer is likely no...the D7000/D5100 pretty much took care of that.  Therefore, until Bayer is superseded by something else, the upgrade race needs to be run on a different track - whether it is making it easier for the buyer to get good pictures reliably.  It needs to be focused not so much on single-track technological improvements in the imaging chain but rather on more holistic measures.

I like your suggestion for improved signal processing.  The Series 1 imaging chain demonstrates what can be done with a decent sensor and hellishly fast data rates and processing, plus on-chip AF.  This also makes for significant useability improvements for the buyer (ignoring the shackling of some of that useability in the UI).

From Nikon's standpoint, reducing dependence on Sony is a good thing, but it's an internal good thing. The buyer doesn't care.  The D5200's DXO scores make us techheads salivate, but the new customer that Nikon is chasing with all of its cameras but especially its entry level models hasn't developed that Pavlovian response.  It all depends on who you define as your customer.

 mosswings's gear list:mosswings's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Olympus Stylus 1 Nikon D90 Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR +5 more
Bill Randall
Bill Randall Forum Pro • Posts: 21,969
Mosswings

You stated: "Nevertheless, I will take a good long look at the D5200 before next Fall's big trip." Any chance you are going to see the Northern Lights?

 Bill Randall's gear list:Bill Randall's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix S602 Zoom Nikon D200 Nikon D5200 Nikon D5600
mosswings Veteran Member • Posts: 8,201
Re: Mosswings

Bill Randall wrote:

You stated: "Nevertheless, I will take a good long look at the D5200 before next Fall's big trip." Any chance you are going to see the Northern Lights?

Nope...walking across England but using only Eastbound flights to get home. 3 months' worth.

 mosswings's gear list:mosswings's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Olympus Stylus 1 Nikon D90 Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR +5 more
rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 24,838
D7000 x D5200
1

Look at these two graphs:

DR

Color

In the 3200-6400 range, the D5200 is almost 1 stop better in DR and almost 1/2 stop better in Color Sensitivity. Isn't that some improvement in just one generation of sensor design? And we are gettoing closer and closer to the theoretical limits of APS-C sized tech. Of course, one may find it more proper to reserve superlatives to even larger improvement steps, but given where we are now, I think this is very impressive. At base ISO I think we will not see any improvement before some radical change in technology or some change in processing, like I mentioned in terms of blending multiple shots to produce a RAW. Single shot IQ is about where it's possible in practical terms. For higher ISO values there's possibly room for improvement, but that will mean amplification plus filtering techniques, as is already done.

-- hide signature --

Renato. http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/ OnExposure member http://www.onexposure.net/ Good shooting and good luck (after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Leica D-Lux (Typ 109) Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D +4 more
rhlpetrus Forum Pro • Posts: 24,838
Re: Here's a D5100 image for comparison
1

Thanks for samples, interesting. I'd have guessed that the base wide ISO DR was related to lack of banding, but it is not so. Will keep track of that, certainly will be a point of debate about this new sensor.

-- hide signature --

Renato. http://www.flickr.com/photos/rhlpedrosa/ OnExposure member http://www.onexposure.net/ Good shooting and good luck (after Ed Murrow)

 rhlpetrus's gear list:rhlpetrus's gear list
Leica D-Lux (Typ 109) Nikon D7000 Nikon 1 V1 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF Nikkor 35mm f/2D +4 more
t.c. marino Contributing Member • Posts: 663
Re: Here's a D5100 image for comparison

great news indeed for the new toshiba sensor,added the little plastic d3200 to my d700/300 and d600..bought the d3200 from a friend for a real good price...OUTSTANDING IMAGE QUALITY WITH PRIME LENSES SHOT AT ISO 100-400,d5200 will ramp up the iq even more..maybe d400 will use this sensor at 8fps?

-- hide signature --

nikonshooter

Bill Randall
Bill Randall Forum Pro • Posts: 21,969
Re: Mosswings

mosswings wrote:

Bill Randall wrote:

You stated: "Nevertheless, I will take a good long look at the D5200 before next Fall's big trip." Any chance you are going to see the Northern Lights?

Nope...walking across England but using only Eastbound flights to get home. 3 months' worth.

Thanks for responding. You should see many photo opportunities. Good luck.

 Bill Randall's gear list:Bill Randall's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix S602 Zoom Nikon D200 Nikon D5200 Nikon D5600
JimPearce
JimPearce Veteran Member • Posts: 9,153
I think these results look very promising...

At ISO 1600 the D5200 has nearly 2/3 of a stop of DR over the D7000. In fact, the D5200 meets or beats the D3 in DR everywhere except at ISO 800. Now, if only Nikon will put it in a real camera!

-- hide signature --

Jim

 JimPearce's gear list:JimPearce's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon D500
t.c. marino Contributing Member • Posts: 663
Re: D5200 Best in Class

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

A home run, Reilly? Not in my playbook. A solid 2-base hit, something that had to happen to stay in the game. Taken from the total system perspective, more like a strategic bunt.

Wow, you are hard to please. A camera that can produce a picture that few would be able to tell from a D800e, having equal DR, at least on paper, and outstanding color. For $899, destined to be a lot less? Are you kidding me? Nobody even dreamed of this kind of picture quality at that price a few short years ago. I would consider that a home run in anyone's book.

For my purposes on a 1080p monitor, 24MP is about as low as I want to look at critically for landscape or other scenario including lots of fine detail. With 4K monitors this year and in the future, this little unit will provide enough pixels to avoid being leapfrogged by viewing technology, as has happened repeatedly in the past, to say nothing of the huge prints that could be cranked out.

This D5200 should be able to produce results similar to a Canon 5DII at $3000, only with much better dynamic range and little to no banding. You can complain about missing features all you want, but you're not paying for them, you'll just have to ante up for the D7200. If you put this thing on a tripod or in a steady grip with the kit lens, you're three quarters of the way to a technically great shot, to say nothing of the 40G, 35 1.8 or the 16-85VR.

I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm already geared up, but I'm excited for all DXers to see what can be done with this affordable tech.

i"ll go one step further,my main cameras are the d700/d300s..just picked up d600..stellar image quality, LOVE IT....but it cant match my main cameras for speed,af,build quality,frame rate and responsiveness, d600 is my 'studio camera"recently bought a d3200 from a friend with less than 1,000 clicks at a "give away" price...LOVE that little plastic d3200 and its fantastic image quality using my sharp nikkor primes at iso's 100-400..seems sharper than my d600 at iso'100-400?..d5200 from what i see so far is even better..for controlled shooting where speed is not an issue and low iso shooting..little d3200/d5200 are hard to beat.i really hope this sensor finds its way into d400..at 8fps

-- hide signature --

nikonshooter

mosswings Veteran Member • Posts: 8,201
Re: D7000 x D5200

rhlpetrus wrote:

Look at these two graphs:

In the 3200-6400 range, the D5200 is almost 1 stop better in DR and almost 1/2 stop better in Color Sensitivity. Isn't that some improvement in just one generation of sensor design? And we are gettoing closer and closer to the theoretical limits of APS-C sized tech. Of course, one may find it more proper to reserve superlatives to even larger improvement steps, but given where we are now, I think this is very impressive. At base ISO I think we will not see any improvement before some radical change in technology or some change in processing, like I mentioned in terms of blending multiple shots to produce a RAW. Single shot IQ is about where it's possible in practical terms. For higher ISO values there's possibly room for improvement, but that will mean amplification plus filtering techniques, as is already done.

Yup, we're flinging the same graphs at each other. I started off my comments with both screen and print graphs.  The D5200 is less impressive at 100% (screen)...but downrezzed to 8MP (print) you're getting significant improvements at high ISOs. This is the perceptual improvement I alluded to that I couldn't quite see in the tangle.  At 100%, the D5200 is not as good at base ISO and only at most a 1/2 stop better at ISOs above 1000.

So I will eat a modicum of crow here.  Yes, there has been improvement. The D5200 is as free from pattern noise as the D7000 is, then there does appear to give a very desirable extra stop of ISO at 10EV DR as long as you print - which is what we're doing anyway when we view onscreen. Things don't change that much at base ISO. If you're going for the highest quality, you're right, we're going to have to do something radical to improve base ISO as much.

Thank you for pointing this out.  Now, can we get Nikon to include AF fine tuning?  Leave multi-point fine tuning to the big-body boys.

 mosswings's gear list:mosswings's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Olympus Stylus 1 Nikon D90 Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR +5 more
JimPearce
JimPearce Veteran Member • Posts: 9,153
I agree on the autofocus fine tuning mosswings...

Even on the D3200. It defies common sense to offer this much resolution in a DX camera - where focusing is more critical than FX - without some form of fine tuning.

-- hide signature --

Jim

 JimPearce's gear list:JimPearce's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon D500
Tom May Senior Member • Posts: 1,676
Re: D5200 Best in Class

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

A home run, Reilly? Not in my playbook. A solid 2-base hit, something that had to happen to stay in the game. Taken from the total system perspective, more like a strategic bunt.

Wow, you are hard to please. A camera that can produce a picture that few would be able to tell from a D800e, having equal DR, at least on paper, and outstanding color. For $899, destined to be a lot less? Are you kidding me? Nobody even dreamed of this kind of picture quality at that price a few short years ago. I would consider that a home run in anyone's book.

For my purposes on a 1080p monitor, 24MP is about as low as I want to look at critically for landscape or other scenario including lots of fine detail. With 4K monitors this year and in the future, this little unit will provide enough pixels to avoid being leapfrogged by viewing technology, as has happened repeatedly in the past, to say nothing of the huge prints that could be cranked out.

This D5200 should be able to produce results similar to a Canon 5DII at $3000, only with much better dynamic range and little to no banding. You can complain about missing features all you want, but you're not paying for them, you'll just have to ante up for the D7200. If you put this thing on a tripod or in a steady grip with the kit lens, you're three quarters of the way to a technically great shot, to say nothing of the 40G, 35 1.8 or the 16-85VR.

I've got no dog in this fight, as I'm already geared up, but I'm excited for all DXers to see what can be done with this affordable tech.

Reilly,

I bought one of the first D3200's and I agree mostly with your comments.

What's interesting to me, and I'm assuming yet again a boost in IQ for the imager in the D7000 replacement, is that whereas the arguments against the D3200 on IQ were pretty severe, what I am seeing now is a few grudging acknowledgements that "maybe" the DR of the D5200 is equal to the D7000, but why couldn't Nikon have stuck with 16 MP and given us even more DR?

Will the next argument be "yeah, sure, the D7200 has better IQ than the D7000, but why couldn't Nikon have stuck with 16MP and given us even more DR"? I haven't an answer to that last question, but it does bring into question whether Nikon should bifurcate the D7200 into a two different models, separated only by resolution/DR.

Please note (if it isn't obvious) that I'm using the D7200 only as a placeholder for the D7000 replacement.

mosswings Veteran Member • Posts: 8,201
Re: I agree on the autofocus fine tuning mosswings...

JimPearce wrote:

Even on the D3200. It defies common sense to offer this much resolution in a DX camera - where focusing is more critical than FX - without some form of fine tuning.

-- hide signature --

Jim

It was suggested on another thread that the way Nikon will address this is by introducing mirrorless replacements, possibly with the next generation, for the D3200 and D5200 (empty mirror chamber or adaptered), eliminating the need for neophytes to have to deal with AF fine tuning in the first place.  Serious enthusiasts and pros will want their OVFs and super low EV PDAF for some time to come, and theoretically have the skill and understanding to use this feature properly.  I have to say I would not relish the idea of having to execute even a camera-guided AF fine tuning test; imagine the burden this would place on a beginner.

Whatever, I don't quite see the D5200 as an "entry-level" camera so much; rather, it's just a smaller-body DSLR that's appropriate for use by a seasoned photog for many purposes that would not be well-served by a big body. Wish Nikon saw it more that way...

 mosswings's gear list:mosswings's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Olympus Stylus 1 Nikon D90 Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR +5 more
JimPearce
JimPearce Veteran Member • Posts: 9,153
Well Tom...

The D7200 or whatever will doubtless be 24MP, 39 point autofocus and 6 fps. Many of us would love to see a 16MP D400 with 51 point autofocus and 10 fps. Nikon could easily do it, but the marketing gods frown on a new 16MP camera.

-- hide signature --

Jim

 JimPearce's gear list:JimPearce's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon D500
Reilly Diefenbach
OP Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,657
Re: D7000 x D5200
1

My guess on this sensor business is that Nikon took a look at the NEX7 and decided the Sony sensor in it wasn't good enough for the D7200 at high ISO (it isn't.)  Their own D3200 is better, but not terribly color accurate and a slight step down in DR.  So they shopped around and came up with the Toshiba item.  Well done.  These guys don't like to lose, that much you can tell.

I see the banding at plus two exposure on the Fred Miranda raw, (an extreme case of total pitch blackness) so that may be a limitation, or they may update firmware when the inevitable internet uproar reaches a certain pitch.  Banding critics, start your engines!

jonrobertp Forum Pro • Posts: 12,856
Re: I think these results look very promising...

Did you also compare the DR and low light iso with the D4 and the D3s ?   The D600  outperforms the higher cost bodies ?  Then go check the 6400 and 12800 iso samples at IR and also dpr.  Rather interesting .   It's rather difficult to have a lot of credibility in these numbers after more research.

 jonrobertp's gear list:jonrobertp's gear list
Canon PowerShot G7 X Canon G3 X Panasonic ZS100 Canon EOS 70D
JimPearce
JimPearce Veteran Member • Posts: 9,153
I'll pass...

ISO 6400 and above is of no photographic relevance.

-- hide signature --

Jim

 JimPearce's gear list:JimPearce's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon D500
Reilly Diefenbach
OP Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,657
Re: I'll pass...

Reilly like good 6400 on hand if needed. Relevant in the NW.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51747496@N08/7661438812/sizes/o/in/set-72157630696943482/



Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads