X20

Started Jan 13, 2013 | Discussions
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max metz Senior Member • Posts: 2,644
X20
7

Its hard not to wonder how much extra clarity and low light capability the X-Trans sensor will bring to the new x20. In that vein a little spreadsheet seemed a good idea, based on the difference x-trans brought to the x-pro1 and x-e1 - aps-c to full frame, an effective multiplying of the sensor area by 2.35 (marked in blue).

Doing the same for the x20 X-Trans sensor gives us something ahead of the 1" sensor (x2.12) and behind the 4/3 sensor (x3.87 marked in red).

When considering the low light capability of the X-Trans x20 one is likely to see a similar or better benefit. The excellent lens on the x20, same as the existing x10 is likely to play a significant role in leveling against the current 4/3 cameras - most of which are supplied with f3.5-5.6 lenses.

Using a simple exposure calculator we can see that the x20 lens has an aperture benefit of between 1.5 and 2ev over most supplied 4/3 lenses, the x20 also has a greater focal range than most with its 28-112mm.

The aperture benefit makes a tremendous difference when shooting in lower light. Taking 2 other camera/lens combinations, the Nikon v2 (1" sensor) and the Lumix Gf5 (4/3" sensor) with their standard lenses - using the x20 ev benefit above we can see the difference demanded in terms of iso.

Even though the standard lenses on the V2 and Gf5 have a shorter focal length, the x20 lens still out performs both in low light, long and short ends of the focal range. Add the X-Trans benefit mentioned earlier and the x20 will surely be a clear price performance leader against 1" and 4/3" sensor cameras.

Fujifilm X10 Fujifilm X20 Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm X-Pro1 Nikon 1 V2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF5
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max metz OP Senior Member • Posts: 2,644
Re: X20

As an addendum;

The above figures dont factor in the new x20 "EXR Processor II" which Fujifilm claims to increase the resolution benefit by a factor of around x2 and a iso benefit or around x2.5 as the iso climbs - using the Fuji graphs shown below:

Above we see the EXR Processor II carrying 50% of the improvement, meaning that from the spreadsheet above the x20 is likely to be at least on level terms with a 4/3 sensor and pulling well away from the 1" processors.

In terms of iso performance Fuji expects the EXR Processor II to carry the loins share of achieving the promised improvement, again which when added to the first post expectation of low light performance will see the x20 well ahead of both 1" an 4/3" sensors, even if these other cameras were equipped with a similar f2.0-2.8 lens as that supplied with the x20.

It all looks pretty impressive to me for the price.

xchert Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: X20
1

That's why I've preordered.  

evoprox
evoprox Senior Member • Posts: 1,448
Re: X20
1

Thanks for your efforts Max, much appreciated !

Just one, first remark regarding the second graph in your follow-up post, where both cameras show the same ISO or low-light performance [dB] at ISO1600 and so, only from there on the X20 would exhibit progressively less noise than the X10. Hmmm ? What about ISO100-1600 ? Same, same ? Since the graph shows processed sensor output would that actually refer to RAW noise after noise reduction or what else ?

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Rachotilko Contributing Member • Posts: 539
I don't agree

X-Trans was not designed to improve the low-light capability. It's main purpose is to reduce the Moire patterns arising in case AA filter is absent. The choice to omit the AA filter is done to improve the sensor resolution. Light sensitivity improvement (stemming from elimination of the AA-filter losses) is slight.

So how come the X-Trans brought the FF performance to the world of APS-C sensors ? Well, it did not actually happen: when X-Pro1 was introduced, it was undoubtelly the much ahead of other APS-C sensors on the market and it almost rivalled the FF sensors available at the time (such as D700).

Since then, both APS-C and FF sensors have improved: several APS-C sensors (Pentax K-5II or Sony Nex7) achieve results comparable with those of X-Trans and D800 employs clearly much more superior sensor. Theses sensors even come in versions with the AA filter omitted - Penatx K-5IIs and D800E.

Is X-Trans sensor layout any good ? Sure it is ! Pentax K-5IIs has AA filter omitted, but that gives rise to visible Moire patterns, while output of X-Trans does not exhibit with this phenomenon.

Will X-Trans layout make X20 better than RX100 in terms of in high-ISO noise ? Hardly, but it may make it approach RX100's resolution - although it will have to fight the diffraction.

Luc de Schepper Senior Member • Posts: 1,151
Re: X20

Thanks Max for posting this. I may be an exception since I'm more interested in high quality (low color noise, high detail) base iso performance and lens sharpness. 
--
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CAcreeks
CAcreeks Veteran Member • Posts: 9,378
Re: I don't agree, X-Trans good?
1

Max, why the heck did you start a thread with such a meaningless title? The moderators should take you to the woodshed.

I am not sure X-Trans will be good in a small-sensor camera. It certainly will be interesting to to find out when the X20 comes out this spring. X-Trans seems to have these flaws:

  • chronic underexposure
  • smearing or whatever compared to Bayer
  • lower color saturation than Bayer
  • less precise spatial resolution than Foveon
  • need to raise ISO to improve DR, unlike EXR

Rachotilko wrote:

X-Trans was not designed to improve the low-light capability. It's main purpose is to reduce the Moire patterns arising in case AA filter is absent. The choice to omit the AA filter is done to improve the sensor resolution. Light sensitivity improvement (stemming from elimination of the AA-filter losses) is slight.

So how come the X-Trans brought the FF performance to the world of APS-C sensors ? Well, it did not actually happen: when X-Pro1 was introduced, it was undoubtelly the much ahead of other APS-C sensors on the market and it almost rivalled the FF sensors available at the time (such as D700).

Since then, both APS-C and FF sensors have improved: several APS-C sensors (Pentax K-5II or Sony Nex7) achieve results comparable with those of X-Trans and D800 employs clearly much more superior sensor. Theses sensors even come in versions with the AA filter omitted - Penatx K-5IIs and D800E.

Is X-Trans sensor layout any good ? Sure it is ! Pentax K-5IIs has AA filter omitted, but that gives rise to visible Moire patterns, while output of X-Trans does not exhibit with this phenomenon.

Will X-Trans layout make X20 better than RX100 in terms of in high-ISO noise ? Hardly, but it may make it approach RX100's resolution - although it will have to fight the diffraction.

Combatmedic870 Senior Member • Posts: 1,104
I don't agree with you not agreeing.
1

Rachotilko wrote:

X-Trans was not designed to improve the low-light capability. It's main purpose is to reduce the Moire patterns arising in case AA filter is absent. The choice to omit the AA filter is done to improve the sensor resolution. Light sensitivity improvement (stemming from elimination of the AA-filter losses) is slight.

So how come the X-Trans brought the FF performance to the world of APS-C sensors ? Well, it did not actually happen: when X-Pro1 was introduced, it was undoubtelly the much ahead of other APS-C sensors on the market and it almost rivalled the FF sensors available at the time (such as D700).

Since then, both APS-C and FF sensors have improved: several APS-C sensors (Pentax K-5II or Sony Nex7) achieve results comparable with those of X-Trans and D800 employs clearly much more superior sensor. Theses sensors even come in versions with the AA filter omitted - Penatx K-5IIs and D800E.

Is X-Trans sensor layout any good ? Sure it is ! Pentax K-5IIs has AA filter omitted, but that gives rise to visible Moire patterns, while output of X-Trans does not exhibit with this phenomenon.

Will X-Trans layout make X20 better than RX100 in terms of in high-ISO noise ? Hardly, but it may make it approach RX100's resolution - although it will have to fight the diffraction.

Yes.....but the x20 also has a BSI sensor that does improve upon high iso. Its not going to be a difference like the 1/2.3 sensors had with the change to them. but i think it will give an extra 1/4 of a stop. I think in total with the BSI sesnor and new EXR 2 we will see 2/3-3/4 of a stop in improved high iso performance. Which is a decent amount. If iso 800 was usable, then iso 1600 may be usable. The results are going to have additional sharpness, thus allowing you to apply more NR in theory.

We shall see, maybe this will just be a iso 100-400 monster like the merrels....noone knows.

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Ryan,

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Les Lammers
Les Lammers Veteran Member • Posts: 3,093
Re: I don't agree with you not agreeing.

I'm just going to keep using my X-10 and see what happens. No one can be sure of anything right now.

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PAUL TILL
PAUL TILL Veteran Member • Posts: 9,285
Re: X20

So which Canon is it Max? or APS-C (22.5 x 15mm)

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The 10% Rule:
You Must Be 10% Smarter Than The Equipment You're Operating

jimr Forum Pro • Posts: 11,405
One Poster Assumes The Positive. One Poster Assumes The Negative....Time To Wait And See And Not
2

assume at all.........

This is a new sensor...NEW SENSOR...

Patience.....

Luego
Luego Senior Member • Posts: 1,178
Max I'm disappointed you forgot to mention...

* X20 base ISO 200

* X10 DR400% @ ISO 100 versus X20 DR400% @ ISO 800 = Advantage with X10 when DR400 is required (6Mp M size with lower noise)


Cheers mate

Luego

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jimr Forum Pro • Posts: 11,405
Wrong..I Have The X20 Brochure From CES In Hand....ISO 100 IS Available On The X20

Luego wrote:

* X20 base ISO 200

* X10 DR400% @ ISO 100 versus X20 DR400% @ ISO 800 = Advantage with X10 when DR400 is required (6Mp M size with lower noise)

I do not know if your second assumption is valid... or not valid...............
Cheers mate

Luego

PAUL TILL
PAUL TILL Veteran Member • Posts: 9,285
Re: Wrong..I Have The X20 Brochure From CES In Hand....ISO 100 IS Available On The X20
1

jimr wrote:

Luego wrote:

* X20 base ISO 200

* X10 DR400% @ ISO 100 versus X20 DR400% @ ISO 800 = Advantage with X10 when DR400 is required (6Mp M size with lower noise)

I do not know if your second assumption is valid... or not valid...............
Cheers mate

Luego

From dpreview

From Fuji

Who do we believe?

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Luego
Luego Senior Member • Posts: 1,178
I put my money on DPR...

Please place your bets...:-)

By the way,

* X100S @ base ISO 200

* X-E1    @ base ISO 200

* X-Pro1 @ base ISO 200

I see a trent, do you?

Cheers,

Luego

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jimr Forum Pro • Posts: 11,405
Posting After Posting After Posting...ISO 100.. X20 Brochure ISO 100. Fuji Japan Website ISO 100
1
Steen Bay Veteran Member • Posts: 6,974
X20 base ISO?
1

PAUL TILL wrote:

Who do we believe?

ISO 125 and ISO 160 are missing. Maybe ISO 100 is an extended ISO on the X20, like it is on X-Pro1.

jimr Forum Pro • Posts: 11,405
Re: X20 base ISO?

Steen Bay wrote:

PAUL TILL wrote:

Who do we believe?

ISO 125 and ISO 160 are missing. Maybe ISO 100 is an extended ISO on the X20, like it is on X-Pro1.

No....Not with the X20.

With the X100S it IS and extended ISO....

Joel Stern
Joel Stern Forum Pro • Posts: 10,909
Re: X20
1

Forgive me for breing naive, but I would think one would have to wait for the camera to be released to really know anything.

jimr Forum Pro • Posts: 11,405
Re: X20 I agree 100% Joel....

Joel Stern wrote:

Forgive me for breing naive, but I would think one would have to wait for the camera to be released to really know anything

IQ...sensor..Yes...Wait..

ISO 100...Unless Fuji repeatedly goofed on multiple websites plus the X20 brochure at CES... as well as Imaging-Resource's website....

Yes..I do note an ISO 100  X20 trend :}

DPR stands alone....

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