New Sensor technology coming out in the next 18 months?

Started Dec 31, 2012 | Discussions
Ronj2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,195
New Sensor technology coming out in the next 18 months?

the Luminous Landscape's best and worst of 2012 mentions the following.

"Also, as Sigma undoubtedly knows, within the next 18 months one of the major sensor and camera makers is going to release an advanced multi-layer sensor which bypasses the Foveon patents"

Could it be Canon or Nikon or Sony coming out with their own version of something simular to the Foveon sensor? Michael seems to know something about this. Any more info on the subject?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/best_and_worst_of_2012.shtml

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Sincerely
Ron J

Alpha Jack Senior Member • Posts: 1,524
Re: New Sensor technology coming out in the next 18 months?

Rumor sites have shown a patent from Sony for a Foveon-like sensor.  I only read rumor sites for fun, but the patent is real.
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rjjr Forum Pro • Posts: 13,373
Re: New Sensor technology coming out in the next 18 months?

Alpha Jack wrote:

Rumor sites have shown a patent from Sony for a Foveon-like sensor. I only read rumor sites for fun, but the patent is real.

Canon supposedly has one too.

Darrell Spreen Forum Pro • Posts: 10,455
Re: New Sensor technology coming out in the next 18 months?

rjjr wrote:

Alpha Jack wrote:

Rumor sites have shown a patent from Sony for a Foveon-like sensor. I only read rumor sites for fun, but the patent is real.

Canon supposedly has one too.

I copied this from the Canon Rumors site -- it was posted back in late September.

"A bit more information
I’m told that the coming big megapixel camera is a very new sensor design/overhaul. The emphasis is in the dynamic range of the sensor. Performance is said to be on the level of medium format..."

"overhaul" doesn't sound quite as promising as "new sensor design".  We'll see.

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Darrell

rjjr Forum Pro • Posts: 13,373
Here's a link...

Darrell Spreen wrote:

rjjr wrote:

Alpha Jack wrote:

Rumor sites have shown a patent from Sony for a Foveon-like sensor. I only read rumor sites for fun, but the patent is real.

Canon supposedly has one too.

I copied this from the Canon Rumors site -- it was posted back in late September.

"A bit more information
I’m told that the coming big megapixel camera is a very new sensor design/overhaul. The emphasis is in the dynamic range of the sensor. Performance is said to be on the level of medium format..."

"overhaul" doesn't sound quite as promising as "new sensor design". We'll see.

To the Canon Rumors site blurb about Canon's 3 layer sensor

photo nuts Senior Member • Posts: 1,364
Yup, Canon and Sony have patents on this.

But I am not sure if Michael knows something that no one else seems to be aware of.

Sharps Junior Member • Posts: 42
Re: New Sensor technology coming out in the next 18 months?

Fuji has been working on an RGB sensor for years.

Eric Fossum
Eric Fossum Senior Member • Posts: 1,228
Re: Here's a link...
2

This Canon device is not going anywhere soon.  Big pixels, and poor noise without complete charge transfer.  Not even better than the X3 structure, in my opinion.

Fuji is the closest, I think, to a 3-layer device with some promise.  But there are still many hurdles to make it competitive besides just interesting.

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MarkInSF Senior Member • Posts: 2,237
Re: Here's a link...

It will happen, but I think 18 months is optimistic.   Maybe for a practical sensor, but nit a camera using it.   Once they get a solid sensor they have to figure out to make it economically and get a plant equipped to do so.

I don't expect any of these to be truly 'Foveon-like'.  Yes, they will have stacked sensors, but that is not what made the Foveon sensor unique.  The clever trick of Foveon sensors is using the silicon substrate itself to filter light, an interesting approach with serious practical limitations, thus the Foveon's terrible low light performance.   Also why you haven't seen a rush by others to license the Foveon technology.  They have reason to think they can do better.

Vivid1
Vivid1 Regular Member • Posts: 304
Not optimistic about this

Both Canon and Sony have HUGE amounts invested in technology to fabricate the normal CMOS Bayer sensors. So unless this new technology can be made using the same process it won't be easily adopted IMO.

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photo nuts Senior Member • Posts: 1,364
More importantly...

Vivid1 wrote:

Both Canon and Sony have HUGE amounts invested in technology to fabricate the normal CMOS Bayer sensors. So unless this new technology can be made using the same process it won't be easily adopted IMO.

Can Foveon sensors offer the same color and high ISO performance as Bayer sensors?

robert1955 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,250
Re: More importantly...

That's been discussed a lot, but it is not really relevant here. The rumor says new technology. Foveon is not new anymore, hust something that bypasses their patents would not be new either.

photo nuts wrote:

Vivid1 wrote:

Both Canon and Sony have HUGE amounts invested in technology to fabricate the normal CMOS Bayer sensors. So unless this new technology can be made using the same process it won't be easily adopted IMO.

Can Foveon sensors offer the same color and high ISO performance as Bayer sensors?

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Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Bayer on the way out..

Agree that a multi coloured/layer sensor/s are on the way I predicted bayer is stop gap solution years back.

I hope to see some serious development of these sensors, excellent low light ability, better DR by far and lower sensor density.

Leon Wittwer Forum Pro • Posts: 13,243
Re: Bayer on the way out..

I always thought that a great advance would be a sensor pixel that could increment a counter when full, dump and keep collecting light.  That would remove the limit on the number of photons a pixel could collect.  Of course, it would take more time but this still would be very useful in different situations.

Eric Fossum
Eric Fossum Senior Member • Posts: 1,228
Re: Bayer on the way out..
1

Sorry, this has been invented several times over the years.  Sigma-Delta is one incarnation.

The big problem is that each pixel has to read "full" at exactly the same level.  Otherwise a uniformly lit array will have a lot of fixed pattern noise.

But, we are on our way perhaps to more sophisticated, higher dynamic range sensors.  DIS and QIS are two examples.

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Eric Fossum Senior Member • Posts: 1,228
Re: Bayer on the way out..
4

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

I predicted bayer is stop gap solution years back.

That is quite funny.  But were you meaning to make a joke?  It has been about 25 years that Bayer has been the "stop gap" solution and I don't see any big changes on the immediate horizon despite many technologists over the years trying different things, including the guys doing multilayer sensors years before Foveon, and since.  They just does not work as well, at least not so far.

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photo nuts Senior Member • Posts: 1,364
Some live in a fantasy world. ;) /nt
1

Eric Fossum wrote:

That is quite funny. But were you meaning to make a joke? It has been about 25 years that Bayer has been the "stop gap" solution and I don't see any big changes on the immediate horizon despite many technologists over the years trying different things, including the guys doing multilayer sensors years before Foveon, and since. They just does not work as well, at least not so far.

no text here

Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: Bayer on the way out..

Eric Fossum wrote:

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

I predicted bayer is stop gap solution years back.

That is quite funny. But were you meaning to make a joke? It has been about 25 years that Bayer has been the "stop gap" solution and I don't see any big changes on the immediate horizon despite many technologists over the years trying different things, including the guys doing multilayer sensors years before Foveon, and since. They just does not work as well, at least not so far.

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Nothing funny about it quite obvious that sensor technology will develop further, and there are obvious limitations to bayer (AA filter, colour interpolation) nice for the time, but time moves forward

Maybe you missed the patents by various makers for these new sensors, it would be quite silly to ignore that.

photo nuts Senior Member • Posts: 1,364
Ha, ha...
6

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

Nothing funny about it quite obvious that sensor technology will develop further, and there are obvious limitations to bayer (AA filter, colour interpolation) nice for the time, but time moves forward

Maybe you missed the patents by various makers for these new sensors, it would be quite silly to ignore that.

So, you think you know more than the expert in the field of sensors? Wow, your ignorance is shocking.

RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,216
Re: Not optimistic about this
2

Vivid1 wrote:

Both Canon and Sony have HUGE amounts invested in technology to fabricate the normal CMOS Bayer sensors. So unless this new technology can be made using the same process it won't be easily adopted IMO.

What matters in business is selling products.  Any business would be a fool to overlook a huge jump in what a prodct can deliver just because they have a lot of the stuff to make the "old" style of components.

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