60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

Started Dec 30, 2012 | Questions
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TStott Forum Member • Posts: 76
60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

I've been playing with this really neat feature.  You can trigger a remote 430 or 560 in slave mode using the pop up flash.  The problem I'm having is I cannot disable the pop up flash and both always fire.  It looks like in the menu that you should be able to disable the pop up for the shot but no matter what setting I pick both always fire. If I can disable the pop up it would be a very powerful combination for an amateur like me...

Anyone have any experience with this??

Thanks in advance!

Trevor.

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Canon EOS 60D
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boulderdashcci Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

The popup fires before the shutter opens to relay the TTL settings and trigger the slave flash. It should not contribute to the exposure. There is no way to disable this unless you go to radio transmitters.

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WilbaW
WilbaW Forum Pro • Posts: 10,759
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?
1

There is a control signal during the exposure, even when you have it set up for the built-in flash to not fire (you can see it in a photo in which the camera is visible in a mirror).

The only way to stop that signal appearing in the image is to physically block the visible portion of it with something like the SG-3IR from  Nikon.

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ScratchDisk Veteran Member • Posts: 3,256
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

Hi, Both posts above are correct. As long as the icon for the built-in pop-up flash does not appear in the 'Wireless func' line, then no (or very nearly no) light from the pop-up will appear in the captured image. A 'pre-flash' or pre-sync-flash will be emitted.

But, WilbaW is correct in that a controlling unit (as a master IR/light device) will also emit an 'in-sync' trigger-flash. This is very weak and often will not spoil a photo - but it can become an issue at close range or when using high isos or if mirrors are in-frame. Nikon's SG-3IR filter (an IR only pass filter) is perfect, BUT, if placed un-modified in a 60D hot-shoe it will disable the built-in flash!!

So - you have to modify the foot of the SG-3IR, like this:



This was for a 7D. For a 60D, please verify that the micro-switch in the cam's hot-shoe is also on the same (right) side - before cutting! This modification works perfectly to remove pop-up 'trigger-flash', not merely its 'capture-flash'. Cheers, Donald

MAC Forum Pro • Posts: 13,210
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

WilbaW wrote:

There is a control signal during the exposure, even when you have it set up for the built-in flash to not fire (you can see it in a photo in which the camera is visible in a mirror).

The only way to stop that signal appearing in the image is to physically block the visible portion of it with something like the SG-3IR from Nikon.

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/

pop-up flip it instead

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Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 19,784
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

TStott wrote:

I've been playing with this really neat feature. You can trigger a remote 430 or 560 in slave mode using the pop up flash. The problem I'm having is I cannot disable the pop up flash and both always fire. It looks like in the menu that you should be able to disable the pop up for the shot but no matter what setting I pick both always fire. If I can disable the pop up it would be a very powerful combination for an amateur like me...

Anyone have any experience with this??

Thanks in advance!

Trevor.

The flash must be popped up to fire, as this is how it triggers the external flash.  However, assuming the 60D is the same as the 7D in this regard, the built-in can be set to not contribute to the flash exposure.  Check your 60D manual.

Mark

TStott OP Forum Member • Posts: 76
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

Thanks for the helpful info.  I'll continue playing with it to see what configuration works best for me.  I'm just starting to learn flash photography which is a bit of a leap after a long time of learning how to avoid using it.    A lot of what I've done to date is either outdoors, night or at a pool shooting competitive swimming where you're either not allowed or just simply wouldn't use a flash.

Thanks again,

Trevor.

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WilbaW
WilbaW Forum Pro • Posts: 10,759
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

MAC wrote:

WilbaW wrote:

There is a control signal during the exposure, even when you have it set up for the built-in flash to not fire (you can see it in a photo in which the camera is visible in a mirror).

The only way to stop that signal appearing in the image is to physically block the visible portion of it with something like the SG-3IR from Nikon.

http://www.dembflashproducts.com/

pop-up flip it instead

The signal would have to bounce off the ceiling so I expect the range would be very limited, and it wouldn't work at all outdoors.

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WilbaW
WilbaW Forum Pro • Posts: 10,759
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

Mark B. wrote:

The flash must be popped up to fire, as this is how it triggers the external flash. However, assuming the 60D is the same as the 7D in this regard, the built-in can be set to not contribute to the flash exposure. Check your 60D manual.

Take a photo of yourself in a mirror with the camera set up like that - you'll see the flash in the image.

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Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 19,784
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

WilbaW wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

The flash must be popped up to fire, as this is how it triggers the external flash. However, assuming the 60D is the same as the 7D in this regard, the built-in can be set to not contribute to the flash exposure. Check your 60D manual.

Take a photo of yourself in a mirror with the camera set up like that - you'll see the flash in the image.

Yup, even when the built-in is set to not contribute to the exposure it still flashes - just not enough to add to the overall exposure.  The exception would be if you're very close to the subject or there is a reflective surface in the frame.

Mark

TStott OP Forum Member • Posts: 76
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

WilbaW wrote:

Mark B. wrote:

The flash must be popped up to fire, as this is how it triggers the external flash. However, assuming the 60D is the same as the 7D in this regard, the built-in can be set to not contribute to the flash exposure. Check your 60D manual.

Take a photo of yourself in a mirror with the camera set up like that - you'll see the flash in the image.

That's a great idea.  I tried it with all 3 modes Popup : Flash, Flash only, and Pop up & Flash.  All yielded the exact same result.  hmmm.  Both flashes fired and both are equally seen in the picture.

Neither of the external flash menu's work, I think that's because I don't have a true master on the 60D.  Not sure if that makes a difference.  I need to find my manual.  I usually have it in my bag but I was traveling and put it someplace "safe".

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asad137 Contributing Member • Posts: 693
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

ScratchDisk wrote:

This was for a 7D. For a 60D, please verify that the micro-switch in the cam's hot-shoe is also on the same (right) side - before cutting! This modification works perfectly to remove pop-up 'trigger-flash', not merely its 'capture-flash'. Cheers, Donald

Yep, same side on the 60D.

WilbaW
WilbaW Forum Pro • Posts: 10,759
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

TStott wrote:

Neither of the external flash menu's work, I think that's because I don't have a true master on the 60D. Not sure if that makes a difference. I need to find my manual. I usually have it in my bag but I was traveling and put it someplace "safe".

The external flash menu item only work with a fully connected flash (on the hot shoe, or via a real or wireless E-TTL cord). The built-in wireless master is one-way communication from the camera to any flash out there that's set up to receive. There is no information about settings coming back from a slave, so it can't be involved in a dialogue about that.

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Limburger
Limburger Senior Member • Posts: 6,778
Just for fun

The Strobist

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Cheers Mike

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Bassetti New Member • Posts: 1
Re: Just for fun

thanks Happy new year

hisoy86 Regular Member • Posts: 139
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

Has anybody tried blocking the output of the pop-up flash (just the lens) with electrical tape or maybe safer, the blue painter's tape?  I haven't, but just curious.  I have found that the output of the pre flash usually overexposes my pictures when taken indoors in the daytime or in a brightly lit area.

Comments welcome

Tom

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ScratchDisk Veteran Member • Posts: 3,256
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

Hi, As explained above, the output of the built-in pop-up is essential both for ETTL proper exposure, if exposing with that unit contributing to the captured image, & for controlling a Canon Wireless Light/IR type network.

If you want the pop-up to contribute to the exposure and you want ETTL to control its contribution, then its 'Pre-flash' must be unimpeded.

Conversely, if it (the pop-up) is correctly set not to contribute to the captured image and beyond that, you wish to totally avoid in-sync 'trigger-flash' too, but, you still wish it to control a Canon Wireless IR/Light type network, then an IR-pass filter is by far the best choice. Nikon's SG-3IR - suitably modified - is a great solution. Cheers, Donald

PS. When you say " .. overexposes my pictures when taken indoors in the daytime or in a brightly lit area .. " bear in mind that using flash, the pop-up in this case, always limits the cam back down to the max sync speed. So it is likely that it is the ambient light component that is over-exposing those images, rather that the pop-up's contribution.

Dale Buhanan MOD Veteran Member • Posts: 4,013
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

hisoy86 wrote:

Has anybody tried blocking the output of the pop-up flash (just the lens) with electrical tape or maybe safer, the blue painter's tape? I haven't, but just curious. I have found that the output of the pre flash usually overexposes my pictures when taken indoors in the daytime or in a brightly lit area.

Comments welcome

Tom

The light from the flash IS the trigger.  If it is blocked there is no trigger for the slave to see.  It is not radio, nor is it infrared.  It is the strobe light from the Master flash that is the trigger for the slave.

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kind regards
Dale

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ScratchDisk Veteran Member • Posts: 3,256
Re: 60D using onboard flash to trigger a 430EX II. Can you avoid the on camera flash?

Hi Dale, Essentially I agree with you, it is the output from the pop-up that sends the control code and the trigger now signal to the Ex slaves.

The window (nearly black) on Ex slave units covering the Wireless sensor is an 'IR only - pass' filter. So control 'pre-flashes' include what Canon calls 'near-IR'. They mean that it's EMR energy in the 'near visible' part of the IR spectrum.

So the Pre-flashes & Trigger-flashes from a 60D pop-up are White visible light & near IR mixed together. Which explains why Nikon's SG-3IR - suitably modified - works so well to allow the control & trigger signals to 'get through'. The ST-E2 is the only Canon master/Controller (Light based) device that had an IR pass filter placed in front of its Xenon flash tube.

RandyB2
RandyB2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,050
Stop making so hard

I've taken thousands of flash pictures with my 60D set to control external flashes and with the popup set to not fire. If set correctly the real life contribution of the popup flash is almost nothing. Try it by going to a room with normal indoor lighting and no strong light from outside. In other words dark enough to need a flash. Set your camera on Manual, a normal shutter speed of 60 or 80 and f5 or so. Set the Built-in flash wireless function to have only the external flashes fire and do not turn on another flash. Note that the picture is very dark. That is because the popup's light was almost all for controlling the external flashes and not for lighting the picture. I use a 580 and 430 all the time and have never had the popup cause a problem.

Always set the camera to Manual when taking slave flash pictures.

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Randy

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