Nikon 14-24 refresh?

Started Nov 29, 2012 | Discussions
anotherMike Veteran Member • Posts: 9,081
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

Yea, I'm with you. IF things work out fund wise, I'm actually looking at the Zeiss 21/2.8 myself as a replacement, or adjunct for the 14-24 in the 20mm range. I'm not sure whether I'll keep the 14-24 or not, given it's extremely rare for me to shoot at 15mm, where I think the 14-24 is spectacular. (The problem is I really want to take a look at the 135/2 apo sonnar, and getting both in one year may not be possible). I wasn't a Zeiss fan with the lower resolution bodies (and boy, I took a lot of heat in the forums for saying that), but after shooting with the 21 on a higher rez body a few weeks ago, I have a different view now. But if Nikon were to do a 20 that was amazing, I'd have to take a very long look.

BTW, not to nitpick, but the 17-35 was designed in 1999 IIRC; the first wide zoom from Nikon with some concepts of designing for digital bodies actually. Nice lens in it's day, but times have moved on and there are things a bit better now, particularly at the earlier apertures where the 17-35 was never that great.

-m

OP john barlow Regular Member • Posts: 229
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

You seem to be suggesting that NPS like to waste members valuable time by asking them to complete a 20+ page questionnaire.

anotherMike wrote:

I'm fairly certain there won't be a refresh - seriously, Nikon has quite a few lenses that need to be updated and/or introduced that are definite needs versus trying to squek out another smidgeon of performance on the 14-24. More likely, if anything, they might be trying to determine if redoing an updated 17-35 is viable. But we really need updates of the 24 PCE, a 17 PCE, updated high quality wide primes that don't cost an arm and a leg (35/2, 24/2.8, etc), a very high quality 20/2 or so and updates to the 105/2, 135/2 and for some folks, the 80-400. Given that they have limited lens production capacity, they've got a long, long list of projects before they try to redo the 14-24, which I think won't ever be redone honestly.

-m

PHXAZCRAIG
PHXAZCRAIG Forum Pro • Posts: 14,058
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

I like the picture of the pretty girl shooting with the flare buster - but not using a lens hood which would have been far easier in that situation.

I like your solution, but when I'm shooting from a tripod in the sun, I just use might hat and look where the shadow falls.    I may yet build something like you have, though I already have enough to carry and set up when using a tripod.

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anotherMike Veteran Member • Posts: 9,081
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
2

Yours is absolutely a valid point. However, while Nikon often designs lenses that meet your idea of the perfect design goal (doing everything pretty well and nothing poorly), like the 35/1.4G, which is about as balanced (tradeoff wise) as you can get, the 14-24 almost looks like a project of seeing how far they could push the sharpness/contrast while letting other things go. The reality is, I don't think a wide angle zoom like the 14-24 can be done without those tradeoffs, so your choice is either the 14-24 with it's limitations (which frankly can be worked around) or a Zeiss 15. Wide angle designs for DSLR cameras are the trickiest optically and thus contain the most tradeoffs. I applaud Nikon for going all out - it's that sort of thinking that keeps them on the leading edge, and I bet some things they learned in the process of the 14-24's creation will and probably has helped them with other lenses.

-m

verybiglebowski
verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 3,959
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

john barlow wrote:

You seem to be suggesting that NPS like to waste members valuable time by asking them to complete a 20+ page questionnaire.

anotherMike wrote:

I'm fairly certain there won't be a refresh - seriously, Nikon has quite a few lenses that need to be updated and/or introduced that are definite needs versus trying to squek out another smidgeon of performance on the 14-24. More likely, if anything, they might be trying to determine if redoing an updated 17-35 is viable. But we really need updates of the 24 PCE, a 17 PCE, updated high quality wide primes that don't cost an arm and a leg (35/2, 24/2.8, etc), a very high quality 20/2 or so and updates to the 105/2, 135/2 and for some folks, the 80-400. Given that they have limited lens production capacity, they've got a long, long list of projects before they try to redo the 14-24, which I think won't ever be redone honestly.

-m

There could be many reasons for the research, maybe even to see if there is a space for the redesigned 17-35. Of course, it can also be because they are considering to upgrade 14-24, but even in that case, that shows the very early stage of the process. Cosnidering how much time they will need to finish all researches and establish marketing plan, design and production brief based on that, design the new lens, and prepare the production line, it is very unlikely that they will come with a new 14-24 sooner than in 2 years. But those are all speculations anyway...

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anotherMike Veteran Member • Posts: 9,081
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

No, I think they're using the survey as a data gathering mechanism. I got a survey too - on the 70-200 VR-II - same thing, long as hell, lots of check boxes, took a while to fill in. I tend to look at this particular topic (the 14-24 refresh) within the view of

a) what Nikons current lens needs really are

b) what is possible with wide angle lens design (as in, can it actually be improved THAT much)

c) seeing how Nikons lens production has reportedly been affected by the quake/floods

And when I do that and apply some critical thinking to the situation, I just don't see by any stretch that you getting a 14-24 survey automatically means they are considering a refresh any time soon. It doesn't make sense. But gathering data always makes some sense (at least if they use it right - and some folks (Thom Hogan I believe is one) think the survey isn't really that good in terms of asking the right questions.

-m

verybiglebowski
verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 3,959
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

PHXAZCRAIG wrote:

I like the picture of the pretty girl shooting with the flare buster - but not using a lens hood which would have been far easier in that situation.

I like your solution, but when I'm shooting from a tripod in the sun, I just use might hat and look where the shadow falls. I may yet build something like you have, though I already have enough to carry and set up when using a tripod.

I am with you on carrying too much stuff already. It is a nice gimmick though.

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PHXAZCRAIG
PHXAZCRAIG Forum Pro • Posts: 14,058
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
1

I wish someone would invent a truly good way to carry a tripod!

Sorry, getting pretty off the original topic here.

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OP john barlow Regular Member • Posts: 229
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

While I applaud Nikon for requesting customer feedback, something they have been criticised for not doing enough of in the past, who really knows what tech advantages they are working on?

I know there is quite a buzz in the world of GRIN lenses, so perhaps a GRIN front element is a novel solution to the flare issue.

Having said that, internally they might be looking at a better stab at the mirror-less game.

All is speculation, nothing to get hung over.

anotherMike wrote:

No, I think they're using the survey as a data gathering mechanism. I got a survey too - on the 70-200 VR-II - same thing, long as hell, lots of check boxes, took a while to fill in. I tend to look at this particular topic (the 14-24 refresh) within the view of

a) what Nikons current lens needs really are

b) what is possible with wide angle lens design (as in, can it actually be improved THAT much)

c) seeing how Nikons lens production has reportedly been affected by the quake/floods

And when I do that and apply some critical thinking to the situation, I just don't see by any stretch that you getting a 14-24 survey automatically means they are considering a refresh any time soon. It doesn't make sense. But gathering data always makes some sense (at least if they use it right - and some folks (Thom Hogan I believe is one) think the survey isn't really that good in terms of asking the right questions.

-m

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 12,539
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
4

Teddy, it might be better for you to write your brilliant responses nice and early in the morning before you get a liter or two of ouzo in you.  I mean seriously, what the hell was that all about?

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Theodoros Fotometria Senior Member • Posts: 2,090
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

anotherMike wrote:

Yours is absolutely a valid point. However, while Nikon often designs lenses that meet your idea of the perfect design goal (doing everything pretty well and nothing poorly), like the 35/1.4G, which is about as balanced (tradeoff wise) as you can get, the 14-24 almost looks like a project of seeing how far they could push the sharpness/contrast while letting other things go. The reality is, I don't think a wide angle zoom like the 14-24 can be done without those tradeoffs, so your choice is either the 14-24 with it's limitations (which frankly can be worked around) or a Zeiss 15. Wide angle designs for DSLR cameras are the trickiest optically and thus contain the most tradeoffs. I applaud Nikon for going all out - it's that sort of thinking that keeps them on the leading edge, and I bet some things they learned in the process of the 14-24's creation will and probably has helped them with other lenses.

-m

Why? what's wrong with Nikkor 14mm f2.8? Sharp as hell if used correctly and as MF as any MF! I am surprised though, nobody talks of the Nikkor 14 and Zeiss 15 being the only WAs that provide a true UWa effect... Otherwise, why should anyone bother to get a 14mm in the first place...? An 18 or 20 or (even better) Zeiss 21, will do the same presentation... Angle isn't there to "just include things in the picture"... as Reilly or other fanboys think...

Theodoros
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http://www.fotometriawedding.gr

scrane
scrane Senior Member • Posts: 1,717
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

anotherMike wrote:

After reading a lot of responses here, I'll say this: most of you don't seem to realize how bloody hard it was for Nikon to GET the level of performance of that 14-24. They threw EVERYTHING into the image quality bucket with that guy - lens size weight, use of filters, flare, everything else was remarkably under-weighted in the overall set of tradeoff balancing that was done for that guy. Heck, they were challenging their aspheric lens manufacturing guys to even be able to make that front element without it costing 4 arms and 8 legs and they put the Nano coating on it too. Sato (and the junior guy who worked with him on that) will go down in Nikon history for this lenses performance - it caught the competitors flat footed. I almost wonder if it wasn't one of those rare times where the management at Nikon got that crazy twinkle in their eye and told Sato and his crew to "go for it" without much thought for the limitations, kind of like the old days Nikon that did crazy stuff like the 300/2 and so forth.

Sure - the lens, on D800E, isn't perfect - there are better 24mm options, it will flare, etc, but given it's a freaking ZOOM lens that gets really, really close to the performance of the (bloody excellent) Zeiss 21/2.8 prime for essentially the same money, AND might be on par if not slightly better than the 3 grand Zeiss 15 in many aspects, well, we have to get real here too about what REALISTICALLY can be done. Seriously - you're getting 90% or more of over 5 grand worth of Zeiss prime quality in terms of image quality, and at 15mm, probably better stopped down. Ain't that enough?

I seriously doubt there is much to refresh - if you want more performance out of a ultra wide zoom, you'd be looking at a lens that costs as much as a 400/2.8G , and Nikon simply isn't going to do that. And it may not be possible in an ultra wide zoom. You want better performance than the 14-24 - you'll have to go primes. I honestly feel it's about as far as ultra wide angle zoom technology goes right now. I'd much rather Nikon spent the time on producing a world class 20mm AF lens that can compete with the Zeiss 21 distagon than attempting to upgrade the 14-24. Or re-do the 17-35 with no VR bullcrap, add nano coating, and redo that design to improve the optics.

-m

Bravo! Well said and true. In my book, it is an engineering and manufacturing masterpiece. It is the reason I left Canon and bought a D700.

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wgas1946 Junior Member • Posts: 36
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
1

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

The bottom line for me is the thrill of opening up a D800e raw taken with this monster. It is fantastic.

+1, same here!

Leif Goodwin Senior Member • Posts: 1,390
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

john barlow wrote:

I have been selected by NPS to give my views on the 14-24. Apparently by random selection.

This may indicate a refresh is on the cards.........

Nikon UK sent me a survey about the 24mm F3.5 PCE lens. The questions were inane and so many of them that I gave up. They wanted to know if I bought the lens because of the last AF, or the silent AF. Something tells me they are smoking something that is or will soon be illegal.

These were my recommendations:

Extend the range to 12-24

Improve the T stop

Improve the flare

Add a chip for in body distortion correction

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 12,539
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

Nikon UK sent me a survey about the 24mm F3.5 PCE lens. The questions were inane and so many of them that I gave up. They wanted to know if I bought the lens because of the last AF, or the silent AF. Something tells me they are smoking something that is or will soon be illegal.

I think you mean recently legalized :^)

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ArtWW New Member • Posts: 17
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

For a refresh, I would suggest a provision for a filter, like the rear bayonet filters on the 16mm fisheye.

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ponderosabob
ponderosabob Regular Member • Posts: 153
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

My recommendation to them would be to redesign the 14mm f2.8 and 20mm f2.8 in MF editions with real DOF scales on them and infinity lock, apply nano to reduce flare further (it's miles better that the stupid zoom anyway)

You've got to be kidding! The 14 is junk!

Clearly an unenlightened opinion, who strictly relies on current popular opinion regurgitated until people believe it. As opposed to actually shooting the lens themselves.

I own and shoot this lens, along with the often maligned AF 18mm f/2.8D, and love them both.

Much of the BS is marketing propaganda to sell the new lenses, which have nowhere near the build quality, and also peoples own justification for their purchases/investments in the newer lenses.

There are many factors involved in judging how a lens performs beyond just ultimate sharpness across the frame.

Vignetting is not always bad, and is many times preferable depending on the scene.

Small, light and quick is a major asset.

Build quality and longevity cannot be valued enough.

Zooms are way overrated, and overused, and impair creativity and skill. (my opinion), However, they do have their place.

Focus plane plays a big part in performance that is not reflected in the mainstream lens tests and MTF's.  Shoot it yourself. There are many fine lenses that are prematurely dismissed offhand, that just might be the gem you are looking for.

Discover the intangibles!

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ponderosabob
ponderosabob Regular Member • Posts: 153
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

Theodoros Fotometria wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Well no. If you want to shoot with the sun in the actual frame with any of the bulbous WA jobs, you're bascially screwed. The 10-24 does it with no problem at all while maintaining excellent contrast. Pretty annoying that FX has no answer for this.

The 12-24 is even better... especially in FX and can be great at D800's 1.2x crop from 14mm (16.8mm FF equivalent). The best anti-flare lens in the world! (little difference in flare than this one though).

Theodoros

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+1 for the 12-24 DX for flare.

Other greats..

AI-s Nikkor 28mm f/2.0

AF-s Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8

Zeiss Distagon T* 25mm f/2.8 ZF.2



Nikon D200 w/ AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G

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Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 12,539
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?
2

Bob, I'm glad you and Teddy love your 14, but it's not sharp in the corners, especially compared to the 14-24, or the Zeiss or the Samyang. As a matter of fact, it's fuzzy and washed out.  Don't even come back with any of that "my copy" b.s., either.  Everyone knows this, which is why it's considered a dud in the Nikon lineup.  As far as "impairing creativity," that's just dumb, sorry.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=628&Camera=614&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=3&LensComp=615&CameraComp=614&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3

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Theodoros Fotometria Senior Member • Posts: 2,090
Re: Nikon 14-24 refresh?

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Bob, I'm glad you and Teddy love your 14, but it's not sharp in the corners, especially compared to the 14-24, or the Zeiss or the Samyang. As a matter of fact, it's fuzzy and washed out. Don't even come back with any of that "my copy" b.s., either. Everyone knows this, which is why it's considered a dud in the Nikon lineup. As far as "impairing creativity," that's just dumb, sorry.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=628&Camera=614&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=3&LensComp=615&CameraComp=614&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=3

I wish you would stop being provocative and appear dumb for that matter! You better talk from your own experience instead of referring to "tests" all the time about lenses you've never had enough experience of yourself! Your 10-24 is worst than 12-24 in everything (still an OK lens) and the 14mm has values that no other lens but the Zeiss 15mm shares (main one being its superb presentation). True photographers, don't require sharp corners wide open in UWs nor they pixel peep for sharpness, ...in fact sharpness isn't the first they consider when buying a lens. Nor they use AF with their WAs or mistake field curvature with sharpness... they adapt their DOF accordingly and use it to their benefit.... It's just the difference between photographers and funboys!

Neither tests mean much to them for that matter!

Theodoros
http://www.fotometria.gr
http://www.fotometriawedding.gr

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