Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

Started Nov 16, 2012 | Discussions
primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 4,768
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

D Knisely wrote:

FTH wrote:


I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

That is not true. You can set the aperture in Liveview for stills, but it doesn't take effect until the exposure (when the mirror recycles, the shutter is cocked, and it fires). I also believe (but am not positive) that I saw a report based on disassembly confirming that the D600 has only a single actuator and is thus physically incapable of controlling the aperture in the middle of LV (i.e., when the mirror is up).

I'm afraid you are setting yourself up for a big disappointment. The FW fix rumor is almost certainly wrong. Finally, I do not believe Nikon will EVER make a FW upgrade that breaks what is in the user manual (e.g., add menu items, change a described functionality). If they did with the D600, it would be the very first time ever, and I don't see that happening. There are too many liability issues with varying from the manual. Remember that Nikon has never one single time EVER added a feature with an update.

Doug

+1. They are certainly not known for it. This is why I was surprised when people mentioned this "update".

3D Gunner Regular Member • Posts: 400
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

DRode wrote:

That is only true when using Nikon speed light that supports Auto-FP.

Studio strobes, and non-CLS flashes cannot sync with the D600 faster that 1/200.

3D Gunner wrote:

The "people" do not know that they can use 1/250 flash sync without problems.

"Flash sync speed: X=1/200 s; synchronizes with shutter at 1/250 s or slower (flash range drops at speeds between 1/200 and 1/250 s)"

With shutter at 1/250 s the "flash range drops" very little and only in particular situations.

No, Nikon D600 can sync all kind of external flashes at 1/250 s.

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DRode
DRode Senior Member • Posts: 2,815
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

3D Gunner wrote:

No, Nikon D600 can sync all kind of external flashes at 1/250 s.

Nikon doesn't agree with you. The technical specs say 1/200 sync speed. I think I'll defer to their opinion on the subject rather than your one-man theory.

David Hobby explains why this matters here: http://strobist.blogspot.com/2012/09/nikon-d600-think-twice-before-you-jump.html (He doesn't agree with you on the D600 sync speed either)

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3D Gunner Regular Member • Posts: 400
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

DRode wrote:

3D Gunner wrote:

No, Nikon D600 can sync all kind of external flashes at 1/250 s.

Nikon doesn't agree with you. The technical specs say 1/200 sync speed. I think I'll defer to their opinion on the subject rather than your one-man theory.

David Hobby explains why this matters here: http://strobist.blogspot.com/2012/09/nikon-d600-think-twice-before-you-jump.html (He doesn't agree with you on the D600 sync speed either)

Do you have a D600 and tried 1/250s to sync flash? I have this camera and and I tried (with an powerful old Sunpak flash)

The technical specs say 1/200 sync speed because at 1/250 is not always "perfect", but is not a problem for the large majority of situations, and when a problem occur is a very small problem if somebody insist to use 1/250 sync.

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3D Gunner Regular Member • Posts: 400
1/250s sync flash

This is a sample when the "problem" occur (at the bottom of the picture), external flash, 1/250s, f:22, made a few minutes ago. Outside, in fill-light flash, larger f-stop, is not noticeable.

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jonikon Veteran Member • Posts: 6,964
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

anirbana wrote:

First, this is not a D600 dust or oild thread. I just need some advice and thoughts in making an informed decision over some of the limitations of D600 (as it seems that way).

I am considering the D600 next DSLR. I am hobbyist and not a pro and I do landscapes, family people portraits, candids and off camera flash photography. I am coming from a D3100 (sold now)

I tried the D600 at the JEssops store in London and got some raw images on my card and I was impressed by the handling, feel and of course the terrific latitude in post processing due to remarkable dynamic range. I have read several threads on certain limitations of the D600 and want to understand your thoughts on these and how some of these can be overcome with simple techniques.

1. Max shutter speed of 1/4000. I know that with most photographers very few shots are taken above that speed. I know the limitation. My question is can it be overcome using ISO 50 and not ISO 100 in very bright sunlight? Does ISO 50 come with its own issues as it is not a real base ISO? I tend to think this as a simple solution, but the net is full of rant on the lack of a faster shutter speed on D600 when most cameras that are compared with have either 100 or 200 as base ISO . What are the other ways to overcome this limitation?

Slap a CP or ND filter on your lens and problem is solved.

2. Flash sync speed of 1/200th of a second. I have read most Canons have it at 1/160 th or 1/180th of a second, but since the DX D7000/D300S and all other Nikon FX offers 1/250th sync speed people are not happy with the D600. Nikon might have thought about differentiating consumer and pro in their FX lineup, but this seems like a silly point on their side too.

Only a difference of 1/50 second will not make any real difference, IMO.

However, with the D600 nikon has decoupled Flash Exp comp with the Camera exp compensation just like Canon does and the only other Nikon camera that has this feature is the D4. My question is can this feature be used to overcome the max sync speed limitation on the D600 to a certain extent, by underexposing the ambient? If yes, how effective would that be?

No. The maximum sync speed is limited by the physical limitations of the focal plane shutter and is not influenced by the flash power.

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

This is a hardware problem more than software problem. Read this post for a detailed explanation.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/38319497

4. AF-ON - I see the AF-On button is missing and most D600 users has programmed the AF-AE lock button to AF-ON. My question is is it possible to programme any other button with AE-AF lock?

I don't believe so. Unless you do a lot of focus and recompose type shooting, I don't think using AF-On is such a great idea anyway . AF-ON  disables the stabilized image in the viewfinder and locks focus well before shutter release, which can cause OOF with a living subject using large apertures. I use and AF set-up solution  that is better suited to those who only  occasionally use focus and recompose method and get better results than AF-ON.

- Jon

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DRode
DRode Senior Member • Posts: 2,815
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

The technical specs list 1/200 because that is the fastest speed reliably achieved. That one can exceed that with certain equipment under certain conditions is not new news nor is it unique to the D600.

The sync speed of the D600 is related to the time between the shutter first curtain becoming fully open and  the second curtain beginning to close.

Do yourself a favor and read up a bit before spewing more uninformed nonsense.

3D Gunner wrote:

DRode wrote:

3D Gunner wrote:

No, Nikon D600 can sync all kind of external flashes at 1/250 s.

Nikon doesn't agree with you. The technical specs say 1/200 sync speed. I think I'll defer to their opinion on the subject rather than your one-man theory.

David Hobby explains why this matters here: http://strobist.blogspot.com/2012/09/nikon-d600-think-twice-before-you-jump.html (He doesn't agree with you on the D600 sync speed either)

Do you have a D600 and tried 1/250s to sync flash? I have this camera and and I tried (with an powerful old Sunpak flash)

The technical specs say 1/200 sync speed because at 1/250 is not always "perfect", but is not a problem for the large majority of situations, and when a problem occur is a very small problem if somebody insist to use 1/250 sync.

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3D Gunner Regular Member • Posts: 400
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

DRode wrote:

The technical specs list 1/200 because that is the fastest speed reliably achieved. That one can exceed that with certain equipment under certain conditions is not new news nor is it unique to the D600.

The sync speed of the D600 is related to the time between the shutter first curtain becoming fully open and the second curtain beginning to close.

Do yourself a favor and read up a bit before spewing more uninformed nonsense.

The whole point of discussion is that 1/200 sync is not such a big problem, same for other aspects discussed on this thread.

You can be sure that I know much more about this technical aspects than you. There are two kinds of people:

1. Informed, who know when and how can exceed 1/200s sync and in which conditions.
2. Uninformed (like you), who must use the device within technical specs.

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Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

jonikon wrote:

anirbana wrote:

First, this is not a D600 dust or oild thread. I just need some advice and thoughts in making an informed decision over some of the limitations of D600 (as it seems that way).

I am considering the D600 next DSLR. I am hobbyist and not a pro and I do landscapes, family people portraits, candids and off camera flash photography. I am coming from a D3100 (sold now)

I tried the D600 at the JEssops store in London and got some raw images on my card and I was impressed by the handling, feel and of course the terrific latitude in post processing due to remarkable dynamic range. I have read several threads on certain limitations of the D600 and want to understand your thoughts on these and how some of these can be overcome with simple techniques.

1. Max shutter speed of 1/4000. I know that with most photographers very few shots are taken above that speed. I know the limitation. My question is can it be overcome using ISO 50 and not ISO 100 in very bright sunlight? Does ISO 50 come with its own issues as it is not a real base ISO? I tend to think this as a simple solution, but the net is full of rant on the lack of a faster shutter speed on D600 when most cameras that are compared with have either 100 or 200 as base ISO . What are the other ways to overcome this limitation?

Slap a CP or ND filter on your lens and problem is solved.

2. Flash sync speed of 1/200th of a second. I have read most Canons have it at 1/160 th or 1/180th of a second, but since the DX D7000/D300S and all other Nikon FX offers 1/250th sync speed people are not happy with the D600. Nikon might have thought about differentiating consumer and pro in their FX lineup, but this seems like a silly point on their side too.

Only a difference of 1/50 second will not make any real difference, IMO.

However, with the D600 nikon has decoupled Flash Exp comp with the Camera exp compensation just like Canon does and the only other Nikon camera that has this feature is the D4. My question is can this feature be used to overcome the max sync speed limitation on the D600 to a certain extent, by underexposing the ambient? If yes, how effective would that be?

No. The maximum sync speed is limited by the physical limitations of the focal plane shutter and is not influenced by the flash power.

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

This is a hardware problem more than software problem. Read this post for a detailed explanation.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/38319497

4. AF-ON - I see the AF-On button is missing and most D600 users has programmed the AF-AE lock button to AF-ON. My question is is it possible to programme any other button with AE-AF lock?

I don't believe so. Unless you do a lot of focus and recompose type shooting, I don't think using AF-On is such a great idea anyway . AF-ON disables the stabilized image in the viewfinder and locks focus well before shutter release, which can cause OOF with a living subject using large apertures. I use and AF set-up solution that is better suited to those who only occasionally use focus and recompose method and get better results than AF-ON.

- Jon

According to D600 manual you can program Fn or DOF preview buttons (on the front of the camera) to be AE-AF lock.

Leo

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Ernie Misner
Ernie Misner Veteran Member • Posts: 4,223
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

Can someone please summarize the differnces in AF-on button operation between the D600 and the D700?   (I realize the D600 button is not actually an AF-on button but can be programmed to do the job)  What I want to know is why the D600 will not be good for following focus and what the difference in VR operation is when programmed to use the AF-on button rather than the shutter button.  (D700, the VR still remains on the shutter button half press but on the D600, focus AND VR will both be on the AF-on button?)

Thanks loads,    Ernie Misner

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DRode
DRode Senior Member • Posts: 2,815
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

There is nothing you can write that will change the facts or the physics involved. You are clueless. You will remain clueless because you can't hear anything but your own voice.

Welcome to my ignore list.

3D Gunner wrote:

DRode wrote:

The technical specs list 1/200 because that is the fastest speed reliably achieved. That one can exceed that with certain equipment under certain conditions is not new news nor is it unique to the D600.

The sync speed of the D600 is related to the time between the shutter first curtain becoming fully open and the second curtain beginning to close.

Do yourself a favor and read up a bit before spewing more uninformed nonsense.

The whole point of discussion is that 1/200 sync is not such a big problem, same for other aspects discussed on this thread.

You can be sure that I know much more about this technical aspects than you. There are two kinds of people:

1. Informed, who know when and how can exceed 1/200s sync and in which conditions.
2. Uninformed (like you), who must use the device within technical specs.

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DRode
DRode Senior Member • Posts: 2,815
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

If you program the AE-L/AF-L button to do AF-ON instead, it will behave just like the AF-ON button on a D700, D300, etc. The difference is that you can have to choose between AE-L and AF-On where the D700 could do both at the same time as it had 2 buttons.

I never really used the AE-L/AF-L, so I'd never notice the missing button.

Ernie Misner wrote:

Can someone please summarize the differnces in AF-on button operation between the D600 and the D700? (I realize the D600 button is not actually an AF-on button but can be programmed to do the job) What I want to know is why the D600 will not be good for following focus and what the difference in VR operation is when programmed to use the AF-on button rather than the shutter button. (D700, the VR still remains on the shutter button half press but on the D600, focus AND VR will both be on the AF-on button?)

Thanks loads, Ernie Misner

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Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

DRode wrote:

If you program the AE-L/AF-L button to do AF-ON instead, it will behave just like the AF-ON button on a D700, D300, etc. The difference is that you can have to choose between AE-L and AF-On where the D700 could do both at the same time as it had 2 buttons.

I never really used the AE-L/AF-L, so I'd never notice the missing button.

You can program AE-L/AF-L functionality onto "Fn" or "Preview" buttons (on the front of the body) if you wish.

Leo

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Truman Prevatt
Truman Prevatt Veteran Member • Posts: 7,937
Re: Finally, we might just be able to agree...

This is probably a rare occasion unless you only take pictures in snow at high altitude.  I've done quite a bit of work in the snow and I did it with a large format and medium format where the max shutter speed was a at most a whopping 1/1000. That is why such things as neutral density filters were invented.

There are a lot of tools out there to allow you to get the shot your want.  Maybe a slightly larger tool box go with your camera might solve some of your issues.

J Mankila wrote:

Take bright midday and add snow. Take one f/1.2 standard lens, one f/1.4 wideangle and, finally, one f/2.0 telephoto. That's my setup and a typical shooting situation. I bought those lenses (all manual focus) partly in order to utilise the wide open apertures. I'm buying either the D600 or D800 to achieve the same freedom of DOF control and familiar focal lengths that I've enjoyed with my film camera (Nikon F3).

The polariser (high-quality B+W "slim-fit" model) can only do so much to bring down the shutter speeds, can make sky too blue and trees too green, and often massively complicates the shooting by creating veiling glare. Thus, I've had multiple times that I've had to use one or two stops slower aperture so as to avoid blown whites. Have I gotten the shots that I wanted? Yes, but not at the apertures I wanted.

Simply put, D800 (as opposed to D600) would give me one stop more freedom in these situations. And no, I've never even shot hummingbirds, but we've got plenty of other fast birds with which the 1/8000 could come in handy.

PS: I apologise for the row we've gotten into. I don't feel good about it and hope we can come to a some sort of agreement. I'm not one to crave for "the latest and greatest" and I don't think I would ever defend such behaviour. You've gotten the wrong impression, unfortunately.

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Truman
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D Knisely Senior Member • Posts: 2,053
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

Ernie Misner wrote:

Can someone please summarize the differnces in AF-on button operation between the D600 and the D700? (I realize the D600 button is not actually an AF-on button but can be programmed to do the job) What I want to know is why the D600 will not be good for following focus and what the difference in VR operation is when programmed to use the AF-on button rather than the shutter button. (D700, the VR still remains on the shutter button half press but on the D600, focus AND VR will both be on the AF-on button?)

Thanks loads, Ernie Misner

I have not noticed any differences whatsoever with respect to the behavior of the AF-ON capability (with AF-C mode).  I use AF-ON all the time, for years on the D700, and on the D600 since it started shipping.  I have seen reference to VR being activated on the D600 by AF-ON, but in practice I don't notice the difference because I'm always waking up the metering with a shutter half-press anyway.  I suppose that I might be able to skip that, but it is now innate behavior that I don't even think twice about.  

Doug

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