Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

Started Nov 16, 2012 | Discussions
Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
Re: Let's just stop here...

J Mankila wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

J Mankila wrote:

Take bright midday and add snow. Take one f/1.2 standard lens, one f/1.4 wideangle and, finally, one f/2.0 telephoto. That's my setup and a typical shooting situation....

The polariser (high-quality B+W "slim-fit" model) can only do so much to bring down the shutter speeds, can make sky too blue and trees too green, and often massively complicates the shooting by creating veiling glare. Thus, I've had multiple times that I've had to use one or two stops slower aperture so as to avoid blown whites. Have I gotten the shots that I wanted? Yes, but not at the apertures I wanted.

That is why you have ND filters. They, at least good ones, do not change the colors. Please, note that going from 1/4000 to 1/8000 buys you just one stop. In your sunny day + white snow + f/1.4 lens scenario it may not suffice. And you will be longing for 1/16000 or even 1/32000.

True. Quite true, and I can't argue with that. However, I don't consider ND filters a proper solution, as they'll make the shooting more complicated than it has to be. I don't even like to use the polariser when I'm simply "reacting". When I have all the time in the world and can use hats or the sort to get rid of the glare, I'll use it, but otherwise, no.

The one stop difference is, and will be, an advantage. Slight, perhaps, but an advantage nonetheless. I don't understand why it's so difficult for you lot to understand that.

Janne, I fully understand what you are saying. I just want to emphasize that for majority of shooting situations this advantage is immaterial. Moreover, D800 has more MPs than D600. In some situations it is an important advantage too. The reason I am spending my time commenting in this thread is to put these advantage in perspective. Something which is a deal breaker for one photographer could be a non-issue for another. As many things in the life it is not expressed in absolute terms. And I am sorry that my postings irritated you.

Leo

 Leo360's gear list:Leo360's gear list
Nikon D750 Nikon D5100 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II
bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,416
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

-- hide signature --

Bob

Deleted-pending Senior Member • Posts: 2,665
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

C D M Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600
1

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

I'm not sure what you mean by "live aperture works fully in still mode." Yes, the aperture setting can be changed while in photo mode, but the new aperture setting does not physically take effect until after a mirror flap actuation (as, for instance, right before shutter release).

You can see this behavior in the following video at 11m40s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk5qOrqcbIQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m40s

Notice how the aperture setting does not affect the depth of field in live view until after the photo is taken.

Deleted-pending Senior Member • Posts: 2,665
My bad
1

C D M wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

I'm not sure what you mean by "live aperture works fully in still mode." Yes, the aperture setting can be changed while in photo mode, but the new aperture setting does not physically take effect until after a mirror flap actuation (as, for instance, right before shutter release).

You can see this behavior in the following video at 11m40s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk5qOrqcbIQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m40s

Notice how the aperture setting does not affect the depth of field in live view until after the photo is taken.

You and Bob2n are right on this one, I just double checked on my D600, now if Nikon claims they are able to fix it with a firmware update it means 2 things : 1) they are lying and will never be able to fix this issue. 2) they can do it but purposely brick their cameras. (the D800 live view aperture works with live update).

MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 15,235
Re: Finally, we might just be able to agree...

In fact, a Hummingbird photo just won a recent challenge coming in 1st place, despite the fact that the shutter speed was only 1/1300th of a second.

I've seen 2 approaches in taking pictures of a Hummingbird. One is to let the the tip of the wings be blurred, to convey a sense of motion. This seems to be the case of the image you point to, although IMO it did not work too well in this case (bit of brute force approach obviously). One is to freeze the bird completely, typically 1/2000 seems "enough freezing" from what I've seen, although truly freezing the tips of the wing may require faster shutter speeds than 1/4000. 
I can see somebody who is into Hummingbirds photography preferring to have 1/8000 top shutter speed. Most photographers will never take images of a Hummingbird. Again it's all about thinking about the features that you truly need and plan the purchase accordingly.

-- hide signature --

Thierry

 TOF guy's gear list:TOF guy's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR +7 more
primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 5,043
Re: My bad

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

I'm not sure what you mean by "live aperture works fully in still mode." Yes, the aperture setting can be changed while in photo mode, but the new aperture setting does not physically take effect until after a mirror flap actuation (as, for instance, right before shutter release).

You can see this behavior in the following video at 11m40s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk5qOrqcbIQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m40s

Notice how the aperture setting does not affect the depth of field in live view until after the photo is taken.

You and Bob2n are right on this one, I just double checked on my D600, now if Nikon claims they are able to fix it with a firmware update it means 2 things : 1) they are lying and will never be able to fix this issue. 2) they can do it but purposely brick their cameras. (the D800 live view aperture works with live update).

If this is the case, Nikon are pretty stupid, even with their likely intent to stop the D600 cannibalizing D800 sales; people interested in video will read about this and perhaps just go screw it and buy a canon. If this is true, Nikon really do not get this...

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,416
Re: My bad
2

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

I'm not sure what you mean by "live aperture works fully in still mode." Yes, the aperture setting can be changed while in photo mode, but the new aperture setting does not physically take effect until after a mirror flap actuation (as, for instance, right before shutter release).

You can see this behavior in the following video at 11m40s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk5qOrqcbIQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m40s

Notice how the aperture setting does not affect the depth of field in live view until after the photo is taken.

You and Bob2n are right on this one, I just double checked on my D600, now if Nikon claims they are able to fix it with a firmware update it means 2 things : 1) they are lying and will never be able to fix this issue. 2) they can do it but purposely brick their cameras. (the D800 live view aperture works with live update).

There is another possibility, which is that the D600 mech includes the extra motor, but that the relevant parts of the firmware were just lifted from the D7000, without the programmers realising that they had the ability to make an instant change.

BTW, nice to see we have some people on this forum big enough to admit that they got it wrong.

-- hide signature --

Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,416
Re: My bad
2

primeshooter wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

I'm not sure what you mean by "live aperture works fully in still mode." Yes, the aperture setting can be changed while in photo mode, but the new aperture setting does not physically take effect until after a mirror flap actuation (as, for instance, right before shutter release).

You can see this behavior in the following video at 11m40s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk5qOrqcbIQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m40s

Notice how the aperture setting does not affect the depth of field in live view until after the photo is taken.

You and Bob2n are right on this one, I just double checked on my D600, now if Nikon claims they are able to fix it with a firmware update it means 2 things : 1) they are lying and will never be able to fix this issue. 2) they can do it but purposely brick their cameras. (the D800 live view aperture works with live update).

If this is the case, Nikon are pretty stupid, even with their likely intent to stop the D600 cannibalizing D800 sales; people interested in video will read about this and perhaps just go screw it and buy a canon. If this is true, Nikon really do not get this...

It's a matter of being trapped by the legacy lens mount. It costs them a lot more to implement a full f-mount than it does Canon the fully electronic EF mount, and one of the places that they can save quite a lot is the extra motor for the aperture pin.

-- hide signature --

Bob

Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
boosting sales
1

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

I'm not sure what you mean by "live aperture works fully in still mode." Yes, the aperture setting can be changed while in photo mode, but the new aperture setting does not physically take effect until after a mirror flap actuation (as, for instance, right before shutter release).

You can see this behavior in the following video at 11m40s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk5qOrqcbIQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m40s

Notice how the aperture setting does not affect the depth of field in live view until after the photo is taken.

You and Bob2n are right on this one, I just double checked on my D600, now if Nikon claims they are able to fix it with a firmware update it means 2 things : 1) they are lying and will never be able to fix this issue. 2) they can do it but purposely brick their cameras. (the D800 live view aperture works with live update).

Nikon never claimed that they can fix D600 video aperture via firmware, nikonrumors did. And as every rumor's site don't trust everything they say.

On the other hand, a conspiratologist inside me would say that Nikon might try to boost the sales of the camera by spreading false hopes of an easy firmware fix.

Leo

 Leo360's gear list:Leo360's gear list
Nikon D750 Nikon D5100 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II
C D M Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: My bad
1

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

No, nothing does prove it, it is based on the assumption that the D600 mech is like the D7000 mech, so far as aperture actuation goes. While likely, it may not be the case. Still, you call his analysis 'false', which is going too far, what you mean is 'not necessarily right'.

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

I'm not sure what you mean by "live aperture works fully in still mode." Yes, the aperture setting can be changed while in photo mode, but the new aperture setting does not physically take effect until after a mirror flap actuation (as, for instance, right before shutter release).

You can see this behavior in the following video at 11m40s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk5qOrqcbIQ&feature=youtu.be&t=11m40s

Notice how the aperture setting does not affect the depth of field in live view until after the photo is taken.

You and Bob2n are right on this one, I just double checked on my D600, now if Nikon claims they are able to fix it with a firmware update it means 2 things : 1) they are lying and will never be able to fix this issue. 2) they can do it but purposely brick their cameras. (the D800 live view aperture works with live update).

There is another possibility, which is that the D600 mech includes the extra motor, but that the relevant parts of the firmware were just lifted from the D7000, without the programmers realising that they had the ability to make an instant change.

BTW, nice to see we have some people on this forum big enough to admit that they got it wrong.

While it may be possible that the motor is hidden somewhere, I can't find any third motor in any of the images from the iFixit teardown: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Nikon+D600+Teardown/10708/3

You can see the mirror and autofocus motors at the 2 o'clock and 7 o'clock positions around the lens mount in this image http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/FMEdN2ZVNYAmEOye.huge

For comparison, the third motor of the D800 can be seen (the smaller of the two metal barrel objects) in the picture under the heading "High-precision sequential control mechanism": http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d800/features03.htm

primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 5,043
Re: examples, please!

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

I take quite alot at 1/8000. Try shooting with a f/1.4 prime lens wide open in the carribean and you will understand a little more.

Examples, please, with full EXIF data.

I, for one, love hot Caribbean landscapes especially at f/1.4 and without ND filter Sorry, if I come across as a skeptic but my bull$hit meter just turned red.

Leo

I could not give a damn, I am not posting examples because I don't have to. If you do not understand that this has significant advantage on very bright days shooting wide open that is your problem sorry!

1/8000 gives you just one stop over 1/4000. In your exceptionally bright scenes even 1/8000 may not be enough and you will have to use ND filters. And 1/4000 with ND8 gives you the same results as 1/8000 with ND4. And please, do not get defensive. We are all friends here trying to help.

Leo

1/8000 is another stop yes? And? That means with 1/8000 I can hold another stop of detail in the highlights. I can think of on a few instances where even with this and highlight recovery I lost a little. I lost a lot less than if I only had 1/4000. Can you just understand that simple fact?

Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
Re: examples, please!

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

I take quite alot at 1/8000. Try shooting with a f/1.4 prime lens wide open in the carribean and you will understand a little more.

Examples, please, with full EXIF data.

I, for one, love hot Caribbean landscapes especially at f/1.4 and without ND filter Sorry, if I come across as a skeptic but my bull$hit meter just turned red.

Leo

I could not give a damn, I am not posting examples because I don't have to. If you do not understand that this has significant advantage on very bright days shooting wide open that is your problem sorry!

1/8000 gives you just one stop over 1/4000. In your exceptionally bright scenes even 1/8000 may not be enough and you will have to use ND filters. And 1/4000 with ND8 gives you the same results as 1/8000 with ND4. And please, do not get defensive. We are all friends here trying to help.

Leo

1/8000 is another stop yes? And? That means with 1/8000 I can hold another stop of detail in the highlights. I can think of on a few instances where even with this and highlight recovery I lost a little. I lost a lot less than if I only had 1/4000. Can you just understand that simple fact?

The same argument can be made  for 1/16,000 over 1/8,000. Where do you draw the line? Since you and anyone else in this thread failed to produce a singe image with EXIF showing 1/8000 exposure I would assume that for most of people here that line is below 1/8000.

Over and Out. Leo

 Leo360's gear list:Leo360's gear list
Nikon D750 Nikon D5100 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II
DRode
DRode Senior Member • Posts: 2,815
Who's is bigger?
1

If freezing hummingbird wings is important to you, then buy a camera with a faster max shutter speed and quite whining about the D600. I have never used 1/8000 and don't anticipate ever needing it.

-- hide signature --
primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 5,043
Re: examples, please!
1

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

I take quite alot at 1/8000. Try shooting with a f/1.4 prime lens wide open in the carribean and you will understand a little more.

Examples, please, with full EXIF data.

I, for one, love hot Caribbean landscapes especially at f/1.4 and without ND filter Sorry, if I come across as a skeptic but my bull$hit meter just turned red.

Leo

I could not give a damn, I am not posting examples because I don't have to. If you do not understand that this has significant advantage on very bright days shooting wide open that is your problem sorry!

1/8000 gives you just one stop over 1/4000. In your exceptionally bright scenes even 1/8000 may not be enough and you will have to use ND filters. And 1/4000 with ND8 gives you the same results as 1/8000 with ND4. And please, do not get defensive. We are all friends here trying to help.

Leo

1/8000 is another stop yes? And? That means with 1/8000 I can hold another stop of detail in the highlights. I can think of on a few instances where even with this and highlight recovery I lost a little. I lost a lot less than if I only had 1/4000. Can you just understand that simple fact?

The same argument can be made for 1/16,000 over 1/8,000. Where do you draw the line? Since you and anyone else in this thread failed to produce a singe image with EXIF showing 1/8000 exposure I would assume that for most of people here that line is below 1/8000.

Over and Out. Leo

You are seriously off your head - sorry! I draw the line when I can safely get all the highlights in any light that I shoot in. That's strong sunlight. I have found that 1/8000 and an f/1.4 lens enables me to do this in probably 99% of situations I've come across, it is VERY bright in the Caribbean and the sand reflects alot of light. 1/16000 would likely be all I need in EVERY situation I encounter. 1/4000 wouldn't cut it at all for me personally. I just cannot understand why you fail to comprehend that some people shoot in bright sunlight, at f/1.4 and ISO 100 meaning the higher the shutter speed the better. Why is this so difficult to understand that 1/4000 is too slow with a f/1.4 lens on most sunny days?

Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
being rude = end of conversation

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

I take quite alot at 1/8000. Try shooting with a f/1.4 prime lens wide open in the carribean and you will understand a little more.

Examples, please, with full EXIF data.

I, for one, love hot Caribbean landscapes especially at f/1.4 and without ND filter Sorry, if I come across as a skeptic but my bull$hit meter just turned red.

Leo

I could not give a damn, I am not posting examples because I don't have to. If you do not understand that this has significant advantage on very bright days shooting wide open that is your problem sorry!

1/8000 gives you just one stop over 1/4000. In your exceptionally bright scenes even 1/8000 may not be enough and you will have to use ND filters. And 1/4000 with ND8 gives you the same results as 1/8000 with ND4. And please, do not get defensive. We are all friends here trying to help.

Leo

1/8000 is another stop yes? And? That means with 1/8000 I can hold another stop of detail in the highlights. I can think of on a few instances where even with this and highlight recovery I lost a little. I lost a lot less than if I only had 1/4000. Can you just understand that simple fact?

The same argument can be made for 1/16,000 over 1/8,000. Where do you draw the line? Since you and anyone else in this thread failed to produce a singe image with EXIF showing 1/8000 exposure I would assume that for most of people here that line is below 1/8000.

Over and Out. Leo

You are seriously off your head - sorry!

Rude personal attacks do not belong to a civilized conversation. Enjoy your photography!

Leo

 Leo360's gear list:Leo360's gear list
Nikon D750 Nikon D5100 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II
J Mankila
J Mankila Veteran Member • Posts: 4,234
Then at least we agree... :)

Leo360 wrote:

J Mankila wrote:

The one stop difference is, and will be, an advantage. Slight, perhaps, but an advantage nonetheless. I don't understand why it's so difficult for you lot to understand that.

Janne, I fully understand what you are saying. I just want to emphasize that for majority of shooting situations this advantage is immaterial. Moreover, D800 has more MPs than D600. In some situations it is an important advantage too. The reason I am spending my time commenting in this thread is to put these advantage in perspective. Something which is a deal breaker for one photographer could be a non-issue for another. As many things in the life it is not expressed in absolute terms. And I am sorry that my postings irritated you.

In fact I should be the one to apologise. Your posts were fair and level-headed. It was Lance's stubborn trolling that made me a bit cross... It seems we agree that it's a slight advantage, while Lance continued to argue that such an opinion makes us spoiled little children.

After D70's shutter speed of 1/8000 (electronic shutter, which did have some drawbacks) the D80 with 1/4000 felt like I was running into the limit much more frequently. Then, it could simply be due to acquiring faster lenses and shooting more when skiing.

-- hide signature --

regards
Janne Mankila, Finland

3D Gunner Regular Member • Posts: 438
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

anirbana wrote:

2. Flash sync speed of 1/200th of a second. I have read most Canons have it at 1/160 th or 1/180th of a second, but since the DX D7000/D300S and all other Nikon FX offers 1/250th sync speed people are not happy with the D600...

The "people" do not know that they can use 1/250 flash sync without problems.

"Flash sync speed: X=1/200 s; synchronizes with shutter at 1/250 s or slower (flash range drops at speeds between 1/200 and 1/250 s)"

With shutter at 1/250 s the "flash range drops" very little and only in particular situations.

 3D Gunner's gear list:3D Gunner's gear list
Sony a6300
DRode
DRode Senior Member • Posts: 2,815
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

That is only true when using Nikon speed light that supports Auto-FP.

Studio strobes, and non-CLS flashes cannot sync with the D600 faster that 1/200.

3D Gunner wrote:

The "people" do not know that they can use 1/250 flash sync without problems.

"Flash sync speed: X=1/200 s; synchronizes with shutter at 1/250 s or slower (flash range drops at speeds between 1/200 and 1/250 s)"

With shutter at 1/250 s the "flash range drops" very little and only in particular situations.

-- hide signature --
D Knisely Senior Member • Posts: 2,053
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

FTH wrote:

I first called it not necessarily right (months ago) but by using simple logic (live aperture works fully in still mode) and knowing that it is fixable by firmware, I call it false.

That is not true.  You can set the aperture in Liveview for stills, but it doesn't take effect until the exposure (when the mirror recycles, the shutter is cocked, and it fires).  I also believe (but am not positive) that I saw a report based on disassembly confirming that the D600 has only a single actuator and is thus physically incapable of controlling the aperture in the middle of LV (i.e., when the mirror is up).

I'm afraid you are setting yourself up for a big disappointment.  The FW fix rumor is almost certainly wrong.  Finally, I do not believe Nikon will EVER make a FW upgrade that breaks what is in the user manual (e.g., add menu items, change a described functionality).  If they did with the D600, it would be the very first time ever, and I don't see that happening.  There are too many liability issues with varying from the manual.  Remember that Nikon has never one single time EVER added a feature with an update.

Doug

 D Knisely's gear list:D Knisely's gear list
Olympus E-M5 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm F1.8 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12mm 1:2 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 Nikon AF Micro-Nikkor 200mm f/4D ED-IF +3 more
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