Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

Started Nov 16, 2012 | Discussions
Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
Re: Finally, we might just be able to agree...

J Mankila wrote:

Take bright midday and add snow. Take one f/1.2 standard lens, one f/1.4 wideangle and, finally, one f/2.0 telephoto. That's my setup and a typical shooting situation. I bought those lenses (all manual focus) partly in order to utilise the wide open apertures. I'm buying either the D600 or D800 to achieve the same freedom of DOF control and familiar focal lengths that I've enjoyed with my film camera (Nikon F3).

The polariser (high-quality B+W "slim-fit" model) can only do so much to bring down the shutter speeds, can make sky too blue and trees too green, and often massively complicates the shooting by creating veiling glare. Thus, I've had multiple times that I've had to use one or two stops slower aperture so as to avoid blown whites. Have I gotten the shots that I wanted? Yes, but not at the apertures I wanted.

That is why you have ND filters. They, at least good ones, do not change the colors. Please, note that going from 1/4000 to 1/8000 buys you  just one stop. In your sunny day + white snow + f/1.4 lens scenario it may not suffice. And you will be longing for 1/16000 or even 1/32000.

Leo

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Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
Re: That's not hard to imagine, at all...

J Mankila wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

I take quite alot at 1/8000. Try shooting with a f/1.4 prime lens wide open in the carribean and you will understand a little more.

Examples, please, with full EXIF data.

I, for one, love hot Caribbean landscapes especially at f/1.4 and without ND filter Sorry, if I come across as a skeptic but my bull$hit meter just turned red.

Leo

No examples this time, I'm sorry, but please, read about my experience:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50306093

Landscape shots at wide apertures is incredibly challenging and, therefore, interesting. And ND filters are not the perfect answer, if good.

1/8000 buys you just one stop over 1/4000. When you consider your extremely challenging scenarios even 1/8000 may be insufficient. In this case you will have to use ND filters anyway. With D600 you will be using ND8 instead of ND4 with D800.

Leo

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Spendthrift Contributing Member • Posts: 729
Re: That is not the point...
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Deleted-pending Senior Member • Posts: 2,665
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

bobn2 wrote:

FTH wrote:

C D M wrote:

anirbana wrote:

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

The only hope is for an automatic mirror flap cycle to set a new aperture. You will not get live camera control of the aperture without some blackout time during the mirror flap.

However, the good news is that you can use any of a wide variety of very excellent Nikon and 3rd party lenses with a manual aperture control ring. You may even want to get a lens where the aperture ring is stepless to allow for a smooth transition between aperture settings.

How exactly did you come with such a false analyse ?

I think his analysis is very probably right. There is a difference in the way the stop down mechanism works between the top end and lower end cameras. The D800 has a separate motor for the stop down mechanism. The D7000 dual purposes the mirror motor, so that motor closes the diaphragm then flips the mirror (the preview function stops the motor before the mirror flips). Therefore the diaphragm can't be adjusted from the camera with the mirror up. If the D600 is built like the D7000 it physically can't operate the diaphragm in LV or video. It's one of the prices you pay for the cheaper camera.

This has been said earlier but nothing proves it, especially knowing that the aperture function does actually work in live view in still photo mode. Moreover Nikon sent us an email announcing that they will actually fix this by providing a D600 firmware update. This also has nothing to do with pricing but with marketing strategy. Nikon D600 dont sell actually as well as they should (I talked to 3 different sellers about the matter) and by unlocking those functions, they probably will sell more cameras. Also, regarding pricing, all canon and Sony cameras offer this function in low end cameras.

Deleted-pending Senior Member • Posts: 2,665
Re: I'd rather take great IQ

primeshooter wrote:

FTH wrote:

over fancy bells and whistles. Our studio used both Canon and Nikons for 2 years, but canons sensors (thick AA filters) and processing engines are ages behind Nikon ones.Therefore, the workflow with canon raw files requires more work to get decent shots. To us cameras are tools and Nikon cameras are just perfectly calibrated for a nice and fast workflow. This counts for stills and video.

Agree, but should be able to have both. Some of this stuff would be so basic to fix.

Agree. This is why it should and will be fixed, as I said earlier, we sent a letter of complaint about those 2 issues (full HDMI out + live view aperture control), Nikon is working on a firmware fix (controlled by software). I guess they tried to protect the D800 sales and our first guess was that they were pushed by Sony to not offer full video control on pro-sumer cameras, this would have make sense 2 years ago but not today, since all amateur cameras do offer live view control.

Finally, yes, Nikon IQ is way more pleasing and organic. I worked 2 years with Canon cameras and their is no comparison. Even the 5D Mark III suffers from softness, and the D600 has less moire (better downsampling) and better high ISO than the Nikon D800.

anirbana
OP anirbana Regular Member • Posts: 332
Re: I'd rather take great IQ

Thanks for such informative posts. I am learning a lot of things.

I checked my photo pool in lightroom and noticed the following  w.r.t shutter speed

1/4000s - 165 out of 14000 shots (D40x and D3100 and 6 shots on D600)

Out of this most daylight shots are on AV mode with wide apertures and high iso(my mistake in early days), camera maxed out at 1/4000th

I am attaching three shots (not trying to prove a point, but sharing some instances where the camera maxed out at 1/4000th), I know these can be taken differently and does not demand 1/8000 as a necessary requirement.

1, A shot with D3100 at ISO 100 85mm F1.8G lens at F2.0



2. The above shot edited in LR with 1 stop negative exp comp - Does this mean if my D3100 had 1/8000th max shutter it would look like this?



3. A D600 shot tested with the same 85mm F1.8G lens at F1.8 and auto ISO (5000), the camera maxed at 1/4000th of a sec. Impressed at the quality

:-)

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primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 5,058
Re: examples, please!

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

I take quite alot at 1/8000. Try shooting with a f/1.4 prime lens wide open in the carribean and you will understand a little more.

Examples, please, with full EXIF data.

I, for one, love hot Caribbean landscapes especially at f/1.4 and without ND filter Sorry, if I come across as a skeptic but my bull$hit meter just turned red.

Leo

I could not give a damn, I am not posting examples because I don't have to. If you do not understand that this has significant advantage on very bright days shooting wide open that is your problem sorry!

primeshooter
primeshooter Veteran Member • Posts: 5,058
Re: That's not hard to imagine, at all...

Leo360 wrote:

J Mankila wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

I take quite alot at 1/8000. Try shooting with a f/1.4 prime lens wide open in the carribean and you will understand a little more.

Examples, please, with full EXIF data.

I, for one, love hot Caribbean landscapes especially at f/1.4 and without ND filter Sorry, if I come across as a skeptic but my bull$hit meter just turned red.

Leo

No examples this time, I'm sorry, but please, read about my experience:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50306093

Landscape shots at wide apertures is incredibly challenging and, therefore, interesting. And ND filters are not the perfect answer, if good.

1/8000 buys you just one stop over 1/4000. When you consider your extremely challenging scenarios even 1/8000 may be insufficient. In this case you will have to use ND filters anyway. With D600 you will be using ND8 instead of ND4 with D800.

Leo

Not really. 1/8000, 1.4, ISO 100 and pulling back all the highlights shooting raw you can get the shot on the brightest of days although sometime's i'll admit it's close. It's BLOWN with 1/4000 so stop getting so defensive. 1/8000 is a useful speed, I use it, you don't I get it - great for you.

dholl
dholl Veteran Member • Posts: 3,233
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

lancespring wrote:

Young people today are so spoiled. Back in the '70's, '80's, and '90's in the days of film, plenty of photographers did fabulous work with the Nikon F2 and F3, both of which featured only a max 1/2000th speed shutter, and only 1/80th sec flash sync.

Very difficult for old photographers like myself to fret over petty issues like these.

Then go back to your D100 and leave the rest of us to discuss modern gear.

Leo360 Senior Member • Posts: 1,141
Re: examples, please!

primeshooter wrote:

Leo360 wrote:

primeshooter wrote:

I take quite alot at 1/8000. Try shooting with a f/1.4 prime lens wide open in the carribean and you will understand a little more.

Examples, please, with full EXIF data.

I, for one, love hot Caribbean landscapes especially at f/1.4 and without ND filter Sorry, if I come across as a skeptic but my bull$hit meter just turned red.

Leo

I could not give a damn, I am not posting examples because I don't have to. If you do not understand that this has significant advantage on very bright days shooting wide open that is your problem sorry!

1/8000 gives you just one stop over 1/4000. In your exceptionally bright scenes even 1/8000 may not be enough and you will have to use ND filters. And 1/4000 with ND8 gives you the same results as 1/8000 with ND4. And please, do not get defensive. We are all friends here trying to help.

Leo

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dholl
dholl Veteran Member • Posts: 3,233
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

anirbana wrote:


1. Max shutter speed of 1/4000. I know that with most photographers very few shots are taken above that speed. I know the limitation. My question is can it be overcome using ISO 50 and not ISO 100 in very bright sunlight? Does ISO 50 come with its own issues as it is not a real base ISO? I tend to think this as a simple solution, but the net is full of rant on the lack of a faster shutter speed on D600 when most cameras that are compared with have either 100 or 200 as base ISO . What are the other ways to overcome this limitation?


3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?


1. In terms of freezing action (splashing/running water, flying insects/hummingbirds) there obviously is no workaround.

But you're right that using ISO-50 is a very effective workaround to compensate for not having 1/8000 (in terms of correct exposure when using a fast lens outside in the sun).  So far, I haven't found any real-world examples that prove ISO-50 displays significantly less dynamic range than base-ISO, tho' I've seen measurements that do support this argument.

3. As confirmed in a thread I opened a few hours ago, see clamchowder's post:

chlamchowder wrote:

You can change the aperture during video using any lens (including AF Nikkors) that has an aperture ring. Make sure you have the custom function set (f5, customize command dials) to "Aperture ring" instead of "Sub-command dial".

If you're using a G lens (no aperture ring at all), you can't change the aperture during video recording. There's a rumored firmware update that could fix that, but it's just a rumor right now.

C D M Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

dholl wrote:

1. In terms of freezing action (splashing/running water, flying insects/hummingbirds) there obviously is no workaround.

Not entirely true --- the workaround would be to use a flash, which is exactly what you would use if you want to freeze action significantly faster than 1/4000s. Speaking of which, this would be one area where a faster flash sync speed would be useful, as it would let you cut more of the ambient light and use a lower flash power, which in turn means shorter flash duration.

dholl
dholl Veteran Member • Posts: 3,233
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

C D M wrote:

Not entirely true --- the workaround would be to use a flash, which is exactly what you would use if you want to freeze action significantly faster than 1/4000s.

Eh?  How do you shoot faster than 1/4000 using flash?  The camera can't shoot faster than 1/4000.

rinsephotographic Contributing Member • Posts: 934
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

dholl wrote:

C D M wrote:

Not entirely true --- the workaround would be to use a flash, which is exactly what you would use if you want to freeze action significantly faster than 1/4000s.

Eh? How do you shoot faster than 1/4000 using flash? The camera can't shoot faster than 1/4000.

you don't. your shutter speed is irrelevant because the effective exposure time is the flash duration. for example, water drop photos are actually done at quite slow shutter speeds in rather dark places with lights that have short flash duration. same goes for any frozen action shots you see in a studio...big, fast strobes.you can go higher than the stated sync if you use pocket wizards hypersync as well.

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/hypersync_fpsync/

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dave

C D M Forum Member • Posts: 57
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600
1

anirbana wrote:

First, this is not a D600 dust or oild thread. I just need some advice and thoughts in making an informed decision over some of the limitations of D600 (as it seems that way).

I am considering the D600 next DSLR. I am hobbyist and not a pro and I do landscapes, family people portraits, candids and off camera flash photography. I am coming from a D3100 (sold now)

I tried the D600 at the JEssops store in London and got some raw images on my card and I was impressed by the handling, feel and of course the terrific latitude in post processing due to remarkable dynamic range. I have read several threads on certain limitations of the D600 and want to understand your thoughts on these and how some of these can be overcome with simple techniques.

1. Max shutter speed of 1/4000. I know that with most photographers very few shots are taken above that speed. I know the limitation. My question is can it be overcome using ISO 50 and not ISO 100 in very bright sunlight? Does ISO 50 come with its own issues as it is not a real base ISO? I tend to think this as a simple solution, but the net is full of rant on the lack of a faster shutter speed on D600 when most cameras that are compared with have either 100 or 200 as base ISO . What are the other ways to overcome this limitation?

2. Flash sync speed of 1/200th of a second. I have read most Canons have it at 1/160 th or 1/180th of a second, but since the DX D7000/D300S and all other Nikon FX offers 1/250th sync speed people are not happy with the D600. Nikon might have thought about differentiating consumer and pro in their FX lineup, but this seems like a silly point on their side too.

However, with the D600 nikon has decoupled Flash Exp comp with the Camera exp compensation just like Canon does and the only other Nikon camera that has this feature is the D4. My question is can this feature be used to overcome the max sync speed limitation on the D600 to a certain extent, by underexposing the ambient? If yes, how effective would that be?

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

4. AF-ON - I see the AF-On button is missing and most D600 users has programmed the AF-AE lock button to AF-ON. My question is is it possible to programme any other button with AE-AF lock?

Thoughts and ideas appreciated. No dust or oil comments please. Please feel free to add additional limitations with hints on how it can be overcome partly or fully.

There's no doubt that each of the items you listed will be limiting in certain situations. But, for a camera like the D600, where a certain costly feature (full frame sensor) is provided at a lower introductory price than ever before, compromise is the name of the game. I think it is significant that each of the limitations listed here is determined by the hardware. I honestly think Nikon did a great job in optimizing the D600 for value, looking at the pro FX camera platform and seeing how the price could be minimized without severely impacting performance. So we end up with a little less here and a bit worse there, but no glaring omissions. What I don't see is a deliberate attempt to neuter the camera through software. The one software limitation, which you didn't list but IMO should be fixed, would be the single-button 100% review.

dholl
dholl Veteran Member • Posts: 3,233
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

rinsephotographic wrote:

you don't. your shutter speed is irrelevant because the effective exposure time is the flash duration. for example, water drop photos are actually done at quite slow shutter speeds in rather dark places with lights that have short flash duration. same goes for any frozen action shots you see in a studio...big, fast strobes.you can go higher than the stated sync if you use pocket wizards hypersync as well.

http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/hypersync_fpsync/

Thanks for explaining that, I may have just learnt something completely new

lancespring Veteran Member • Posts: 3,974
Re: Finally, we might just be able to agree...

J Mankila wrote:

And no, I've never even shot hummingbirds, but we've got plenty of other fast birds with which the 1/8000 could come in handy.

So far not a single person in this thread has posted a photo to illustrate the importance of having a 1/8000th second shutter, which pretty much illustrates how rarely it is used or needed.

In fact, a Hummingbird photo just won a recent challenge coming in 1st place, despite the fact that the shutter speed was only 1/1300th of a second.

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4994095149/photos/2298657

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voider Veteran Member • Posts: 3,008
Re: Overcoming some of the limitations of a D600

anirbana wrote:

First, this is not a D600 dust or oild thread. I just need some advice and thoughts in making an informed decision over some of the limitations of D600 (as it seems that way).

I am considering the D600 next DSLR. I am hobbyist and not a pro and I do landscapes, family people portraits, candids and off camera flash photography. I am coming from a D3100 (sold now)

I tried the D600 at the JEssops store in London and got some raw images on my card and I was impressed by the handling, feel and of course the terrific latitude in post processing due to remarkable dynamic range. I have read several threads on certain limitations of the D600 and want to understand your thoughts on these and how some of these can be overcome with simple techniques.

1. Max shutter speed of 1/4000. I know that with most photographers very few shots are taken above that speed. I know the limitation. My question is can it be overcome using ISO 50 and not ISO 100 in very bright sunlight? Does ISO 50 come with its own issues as it is not a real base ISO? I tend to think this as a simple solution, but the net is full of rant on the lack of a faster shutter speed on D600 when most cameras that are compared with have either 100 or 200 as base ISO . What are the other ways to overcome this limitation?

Just a ND Filter will help

2. Flash sync speed of 1/200th of a second. I have read most Canons have it at 1/160 th or 1/180th of a second, but since the DX D7000/D300S and all other Nikon FX offers 1/250th sync speed people are not happy with the D600. Nikon might have thought about differentiating consumer and pro in their FX lineup, but this seems like a silly point on their side too.

Buy an external flash and activate Auto FP

However, with the D600 nikon has decoupled Flash Exp comp with the Camera exp compensation just like Canon does and the only other Nikon camera that has this feature is the D4. My question is can this feature be used to overcome the max sync speed limitation on the D600 to a certain extent, by underexposing the ambient? If yes, how effective would that be?

3. Aperture control in movie mode- I know there is no way to overcome this other than a firmware update (that too subjected to hardware design). Is there any hope on Firmware side?

4. AF-ON - I see the AF-On button is missing and most D600 users has programmed the AF-AE lock button to AF-ON. My question is is it possible to programme any other button with AE-AF lock?

Thoughts and ideas appreciated. No dust or oil comments please. Please feel free to add additional limitations with hints on how it can be overcome partly or fully.

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J Mankila
J Mankila Veteran Member • Posts: 4,234
This is rather pointless...

lancespring wrote:

J Mankila wrote:

And no, I've never even shot hummingbirds, but we've got plenty of other fast birds with which the 1/8000 could come in handy.

So far not a single person in this thread has posted a photo to illustrate the importance of having a 1/8000th second shutter, which pretty much illustrates how rarely it is used or needed.

I'm away from my computer so I can't physically upload any images at the moment. But even if I could, there would be no need, because these things can not be described in photos. I could show you many images that have been shot at f/2.8 when I'd have preferred f/1.4. Would they convince you? No.

In fact, a Hummingbird photo just won a recent challenge coming in 1st place, despite the fact that the shutter speed was only 1/1300th of a second.

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4994095149/photos/2298657

This proves absolutely nothing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with such a shutter speed if the photographer wished to use it. If, however, he/she was already at the max aperture limit and didn't have enough light to go faster, then I deem it a compromise. The blur in the photo is objectionable if he/she intended to freeze the wings.

The photo is nice, but it could've been equally nice or even nicer with a frozen bird. Your reasoning doesn't follow mine and I don't wish to be on the same page as you in this regard, so let's leave it at that.

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regards
Janne Mankila, Finland

J Mankila
J Mankila Veteran Member • Posts: 4,234
Let's just stop here...

Leo360 wrote:

J Mankila wrote:

Take bright midday and add snow. Take one f/1.2 standard lens, one f/1.4 wideangle and, finally, one f/2.0 telephoto. That's my setup and a typical shooting situation....

The polariser (high-quality B+W "slim-fit" model) can only do so much to bring down the shutter speeds, can make sky too blue and trees too green, and often massively complicates the shooting by creating veiling glare. Thus, I've had multiple times that I've had to use one or two stops slower aperture so as to avoid blown whites. Have I gotten the shots that I wanted? Yes, but not at the apertures I wanted.

That is why you have ND filters. They, at least good ones, do not change the colors. Please, note that going from 1/4000 to 1/8000 buys you just one stop. In your sunny day + white snow + f/1.4 lens scenario it may not suffice. And you will be longing for 1/16000 or even 1/32000.

True. Quite true, and I can't argue with that. However, I don't consider ND filters a proper solution, as they'll make the shooting more complicated than it has to be. I don't even like to use the polariser when I'm simply "reacting". When I have all the time in the world and can use hats or the sort to get rid of the glare, I'll use it, but otherwise, no.

The one stop difference is, and will be, an advantage. Slight, perhaps, but an advantage nonetheless. I don't understand why it's so difficult for you lot to understand that.

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regards
Janne Mankila, Finland

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