A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5 Locked

Started Nov 13, 2012 | Discussions
This thread is locked.
rrr_hhh Veteran Member • Posts: 6,022
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

tjuster1 wrote:

Allan Brown wrote:

rakore wrote:

I like to use the E-M5 in manual mode with auto ISO. It lets me control the two variables of the exposure triangle I'm most concerned about, and at the same time releaves me from having to factor in ISO as a third factor.

This combination is Not manual mode. How can it be when one of the variables is still auto?

To have real manual mode, you also need to have manual control over the ISO otherwise you are still in auto.

What you are doing is no different to me setting the ISO and the aperture and letting the camera decide the shutter speed.

Other cameras allow you to set some other factors such as the tone line (Pentax calls it the P line) or allow you to adjust the exposure compensation (what you are asking for) but it is still Auto - Not manual.

BTW, what are you doing that the exact shutter speed and aperture are so important?

Allan

No, this is still manual mode--in fact, you manually control three things in this case: A, S, and EC.

Whether you control exposure with ISO or EC doesn't make any difference in practice : as long as there aren't three wheels on the camera, you will still have to press a function button before getting access to exposure changes, whether through ISOs or EC. So really, I don't see the point of this request. It is one and the same in number of button presses and in the results.

I agree with the OC--this would be a very useful feature to have, and there's no reason Oly couldn't implement it.

there are already way enough customization possibilities, so I don't see the point of that one. it s not as if you weren't able to get the same results in another way. Just because Nikn has it doesn't mean that we need it too.

I routinely use M + Auto-ISO to set both the aperture (widest possible, usually) + shutter speed (slowest I can tolerate), letting the camera pick the ISO to make it all work. This is the setting I use most often when taking pictures of people indoors. When shooting towards a window, however, it would be useful to dial in some EC--hence the OP's original request.

tweaking the ISO would lead you to the same results.

Panasonic has never had this feature, so Panny users may not recognize its value. But anyone who's tried it knows just how useful it is.

Frankly, I see no value in it. If there is one thing I want to control in a camera, it is the ISO. Taking correctly exposed pictures has always been a matter of keeping those three things under check : ISO, aperture and shutterspeed. Whether you make use of the EC dial or not, you always have to look for these three parameters.

-- hide signature --

rrr_hhh

 rrr_hhh's gear list:rrr_hhh's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EOS 6D Sony a7R Olympus E-M5 II Sony a7R II +5 more
FW Scharpf Regular Member • Posts: 493
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rakore wrote:

Obviously this is the case as long as you don't use auto ISO in manual mode. But if you do that there is no way to over or under expose. That was the whole point of my post.

-- hide signature --

Yes, there is.

You can still change either the shutter speed or the aperture to achieve over- or underexposure -- once auto-ISO has reached its upper oder lower limit. Just observe the brightness of the image in your EVF while you are changing the settings.

So your problem is merely that you will have to be at the end of the auto-ISO-range to achieve an effect.

Fritz
http://www.pbase.com/fwscharpf/galleries

 FW Scharpf's gear list:FW Scharpf's gear list
Sony a7R II Olympus E-M1 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm 1:2.8 Macro Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 75mm F1.8 Panasonic 12-35mm F2.8 +5 more
OP rakore Regular Member • Posts: 157
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rrr_hhh wrote:

rakore wrote:

I just don't get the "cumbersom" aspect. I understand the technical nature of HOW EC with Auto ISO in Manual mode works, but really.... WHY?

To me the answer is obvious: With auto ISO in manual mode EC is just as juseful as in any other mode. The real question is: Why is there no EC in this mode when it's available in any other mode?

Because Olympus isn't Nikon and each manufacturer has its own philosophy ?

Really you don't change ISOs as much as shutter and aperture. So when on a scene put your camera on auto ISO and see which ISO the camera picks, should you need that for your confidence, then set the camera at that ISO and use an Fn button to call the ISOs and change them the same way you would use an exp. comp. dial.

This s a no brainer.

I'll try and explain it to you with a concrete example: Let's say you're shooting in a bar. Ambient light is generally low, but in some scenes bright rays of light cut through. Your subject is a person standing relatively still at the bar while people dance in the background. You figure a nice shutter speed will blur the motion in the background while keeping the still person sharp, so you set it to 1/15. Your're using the Oly/45 and don't want to shoot wide open, so you set it to 2.8. You don't want these values to change.

This puts you in manual mode. If you don't use auto ISO, for every change you make in point of view you would likely have to tweak the ISO a little because of different metering. So lets say for convenience you turn on auto ISO. But now you see a shadow falling over a part of the subjects face, whcih gives a nice visual effect. You want to underexpose to make the shadow darker, and you want to keep it underexposed even when you change point of view and get different metering.

There's no way to acheive this on the E-M5 as is. You would have to manipulate the ISO, which is unconvenient.

You can also think about it more abstractly: In S mode you can control shutter speed and ISO and leave aperture to the camera; in A mode you leave shutter speed to the camera. In both scenarious you have EC. Now why is there not a combination where you can control shutter and aperture, leave ISO to the camera and still get EC? There is no good reason for it.

I'm basically requesting a new mode, and I think the reason it's hard for many to grasp the usefulness is that on most cameras this mode has never existed, so you don't see it as an option. But use your imagination. It is, indeed, a no brainer.

ginsbu Senior Member • Posts: 1,420
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rrr_hhh wrote:

Please explain the difference :

  • in Auto ISO, you need to affect the exp. compensation to an Fn button. Press that button to access to exp. comp and rotate one dial.
  • in normal ISO mode, you need to affect ISO to one of the Fn button. Press that button to access to it and turn one dial.

I see no difference at all between these two ways of getting the same thing.

As had been explained previously, under variable lighting conditions the latter requires constant adjustment of ISO to keep the same image brightness, while the former doesn't.

 ginsbu's gear list:ginsbu's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EOS M Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R +12 more
tjuster1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,956
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rrr_hhh wrote:

tjuster1 wrote:

Allan Brown wrote:

rakore wrote:

I like to use the E-M5 in manual mode with auto ISO. It lets me control the two variables of the exposure triangle I'm most concerned about, and at the same time releaves me from having to factor in ISO as a third factor.

This combination is Not manual mode. How can it be when one of the variables is still auto?

To have real manual mode, you also need to have manual control over the ISO otherwise you are still in auto.

What you are doing is no different to me setting the ISO and the aperture and letting the camera decide the shutter speed.

Other cameras allow you to set some other factors such as the tone line (Pentax calls it the P line) or allow you to adjust the exposure compensation (what you are asking for) but it is still Auto - Not manual.

BTW, what are you doing that the exact shutter speed and aperture are so important?

Allan

No, this is still manual mode--in fact, you manually control three things in this case: A, S, and EC.

Whether you control exposure with ISO or EC doesn't make any difference in practice : as long as there aren't three wheels on the camera, you will still have to press a function button before getting access to exposure changes, whether through ISOs or EC. So really, I don't see the point of this request. It is one and the same in number of button presses and in the results.

I agree with the OC--this would be a very useful feature to have, and there's no reason Oly couldn't implement it.

there are already way enough customization possibilities, so I don't see the point of that one. it s not as if you weren't able to get the same results in another way. Just because Nikn has it doesn't mean that we need it too.

I routinely use M + Auto-ISO to set both the aperture (widest possible, usually) + shutter speed (slowest I can tolerate), letting the camera pick the ISO to make it all work. This is the setting I use most often when taking pictures of people indoors. When shooting towards a window, however, it would be useful to dial in some EC--hence the OP's original request.

tweaking the ISO would lead you to the same results.

Panasonic has never had this feature, so Panny users may not recognize its value. But anyone who's tried it knows just how useful it is.

Frankly, I see no value in it. If there is one thing I want to control in a camera, it is the ISO. Taking correctly exposed pictures has always been a matter of keeping those three things under check : ISO, aperture and shutterspeed. Whether you make use of the EC dial or not, you always have to look for these three parameters.

Then why the hell use EC at all in any mode? You can just adjust the aperture or shutter speed (or ISO) to get the correct exposure? Isn't this what you're saying?

To wit: set ISO. Set shutter speed. Now go manual and adjust the aperture to get just the perfect exposure. What's the need for EC?

Maybe you don't use EC, but I do and I imagine lots of others do too. It's a very useful tool when I don't want to be fiddling with exposure all the time. And it would be useful in M+Auto-ISO too.

Here's yet another example (lots above). I'm shooting a wedding indoors. I've set aperture to max and shutter speed to 1/60 (slowest acceptable). ISO is on Auto, which frees me to concentrate on composition because the camera is automatically setting exposure (by adjusting the ISO). But now my subject is backlit and part of the image is overexposed and will be blown out. What do I do? You want me to switch to M mode and manually adjust the ISO (or shutter speed, or aperture, or whatever) to get the exposure correct. I'd prefer just to dial down EV a few percent and take the picture. My way is much faster and easier and that's why the OP suggested Olympus implement it!

Again, it seems like you've never used this feature (M + Auto-ISO) so you have no appreciation for its value. Why don't you take the word of the people who've actually used it and find it useful?

 tjuster1's gear list:tjuster1's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm F4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +5 more
Detail Man
Detail Man Forum Pro • Posts: 16,808
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rakore wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

rakore wrote:

I just don't get the "cumbersom" aspect. I understand the technical nature of HOW EC with Auto ISO in Manual mode works, but really.... WHY?

To me the answer is obvious: With auto ISO in manual mode EC is just as juseful as in any other mode. The real question is: Why is there no EC in this mode when it's available in any other mode?

Because Olympus isn't Nikon and each manufacturer has its own philosophy ?

Really you don't change ISOs as much as shutter and aperture. So when on a scene put your camera on auto ISO and see which ISO the camera picks, should you need that for your confidence, then set the camera at that ISO and use an Fn button to call the ISOs and change them the same way you would use an exp. comp. dial.

This s a no brainer.

I'll try and explain it to you with a concrete example: Let's say you're shooting in a bar. Ambient light is generally low, but in some scenes bright rays of light cut through. Your subject is a person standing relatively still at the bar while people dance in the background. You figure a nice shutter speed will blur the motion in the background while keeping the still person sharp, so you set it to 1/15. Your're using the Oly/45 and don't want to shoot wide open, so you set it to 2.8. You don't want these values to change.

This puts you in manual mode. If you don't use auto ISO, for every change you make in point of view you would likely have to tweak the ISO a little because of different metering. So lets say for convenience you turn on auto ISO. But now you see a shadow falling over a part of the subjects face, whcih gives a nice visual effect. You want to underexpose to make the shadow darker, and you want to keep it underexposed even when you change point of view and get different metering.

There's no way to acheive this on the E-M5 as is. You would have to manipulate the ISO, which is unconvenient.

Why is changing the ISO Gain inconvenient ? It can be adjusted in 1/3 EV steps on the E-M5. What you are proposing is simply a "fine-tuning" control of the ISO Gain. It may (also, possibly) be that (due to hardware adjustment limitations) the ISO Gain cannot be adjusted in smaller increments.

You can also think about it more abstractly: In S mode you can control shutter speed and ISO and leave aperture to the camera; in A mode you leave shutter speed to the camera. In both scenarious you have EC. Now why is there not a combination where you can control shutter and aperture, leave ISO to the camera and still get EC? There is no good reason for it.

Because Exposure is a function of incoming light, F-Number, and Shutter Speed. Thus, you cannot change "Exposure" without changing F-Number or Shutter Speed. See the conceptual problem ?

For a given Exposure level, adjusting the ISO Gain only affects Image Brightness - not the Exposure.

I'm basically requesting a new mode, and I think the reason it's hard for many to grasp the usefulness is that on most cameras this mode has never existed, so you don't see it as an option. But use your imagination. It is, indeed, a no brainer.

ginsbu Senior Member • Posts: 1,420
Re: I find manual mode pretty much unnecessary any more....

Bob Meyer wrote:

rakore wrote:

The usefeulness of this feature comes from being able to control motion blur and DOF at the same time. It would be like setting the shutter and aperture dials on an old manual film camera and let your assistant find the film with the right ISO value for you in an instant.

M mode let's you set each parameter separately, but assuming you're interested in getting the right exposure your starting point is going to be the same exposure that A or S gives you, before EC. What's the value of getting the right motion blur and DOF if the exposure is wrong?

But that's just the point! What the camera's metering thinks is "correct exposure" may not be the "exposure" you want: that's why EC is needed in all modes relying on the camera's metering, P/A/S and M+Auto-ISO.

 ginsbu's gear list:ginsbu's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EOS M Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R +12 more
OP rakore Regular Member • Posts: 157
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

There's no way to acheive this on the E-M5 as is. You would have to manipulate the ISO, which is unconvenient.

Why is changing the ISO Gain inconvenient ? It can be adjusted in 1/3 EV steps on the E-M5. What you are proposing is simply a "fine-tuning" control of the ISO Gain. It may (also, possibly) be that (due to hardware adjustment limitations) the ISO Gain cannot be adjusted in smaller increments.

If this is your line of reasoning we might as well do away with EC in both A and S mode, since it can be achevied in manual. Perhaps you think that is a good idea, I don't know.

You can also think about it more abstractly: In S mode you can control shutter speed and ISO and leave aperture to the camera; in A mode you leave shutter speed to the camera. In both scenarious you have EC. Now why is there not a combination where you can control shutter and aperture, leave ISO to the camera and still get EC? There is no good reason for it.

Because Exposure is a function of incoming light, F-Number, and Shutter Speed. Thus, you cannot change "Exposure" without changing F-Number or Shutter Speed. See the conceptual problem ?

For a given Exposure level, adjusting the ISO Gain only affects Image Brightness - not the Exposure.

Semantics. If it satisifes you, just call it image brightness. End result is the same.

Detail Man
Detail Man Forum Pro • Posts: 16,808
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rakore wrote:

There's no way to acheive this on the E-M5 as is. You would have to manipulate the ISO, which is unconvenient.

Why is changing the ISO Gain inconvenient ? It can be adjusted in 1/3 EV steps on the E-M5. What you are proposing is simply a "fine-tuning" control of the ISO Gain. It may (also, possibly) be that (due to hardware adjustment limitations) the ISO Gain cannot be adjusted in smaller increments.

If this is your line of reasoning we might as well do away with EC in both A and S mode, since it can be achevied in manual. Perhaps you think that is a good idea, I don't know.

Read my first post on this thread. You will see that I understand and recognize what you want:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50290658

You can also think about it more abstractly: In S mode you can control shutter speed and ISO and leave aperture to the camera; in A mode you leave shutter speed to the camera. In both scenarious you have EC. Now why is there not a combination where you can control shutter and aperture, leave ISO to the camera and still get EC? There is no good reason for it.

Because Exposure is a function of incoming light, F-Number, and Shutter Speed. Thus, you cannot change "Exposure" without changing F-Number or Shutter Speed. See the conceptual problem ?

For a given Exposure level, adjusting the ISO Gain only affects Image Brightness - not the Exposure.

Semantics. If it satisifes you, just call it image brightness. End result is the same.

Let's call it the "Image Brightness Triangle", then. ISO Gain is unrelated to Exposure (Shot Noise).

Najinsky Veteran Member • Posts: 5,739
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rrr_hhh wrote:

aVolanche wrote:

drpoop wrote:

Why?

You can set shutter speed + aperture...then allow the iso to float for "correct exposure". Having exposure compensation in M-mode allows you to darken or lighten the images (ex: in a back-lit photo). If you use exposure compensation in any mode, you know why it's needed.

But when you fix the ISOs and change that parameter instead of letting it float, you get the same results as with an exposure compensation dial ! Since one wheel will be for shutter and the other for aperture, you will still have to press an Fn button to get to the exposure compensation parameter. I don't see how that can be any different than the actual situation.

Imagine there isn't a lot of light, you want F/2 because that's as bright as your lens goes, and you want 1/60s to counteract blur (camera/motion). As you move from shot to shot, Auto ISO chooses 200, 400, 800, etc as needed for a correct 'exposure' as determined by the meter.

Now imagine in one composition, the meter is getting fooled and producing too bright an image and using too high an ISO value. What you can do in any other mode is use -1 (etc) EC to compensate for the meter being fooled. This is what some other brands allow (especially Nikon), but Olympus doesn't.

Some people wan't it, some camera makers give it, some people seem to want to stop them.

Regards, -Najinsky

Allan Brown Senior Member • Posts: 2,593
Re: I find manual mode pretty much unnecessary any more....

ginsbu wrote:

Bob Meyer wrote:

rakore wrote:

The usefeulness of this feature comes from being able to control motion blur and DOF at the same time. It would be like setting the shutter and aperture dials on an old manual film camera and let your assistant find the film with the right ISO value for you in an instant.

M mode let's you set each parameter separately, but assuming you're interested in getting the right exposure your starting point is going to be the same exposure that A or S gives you, before EC. What's the value of getting the right motion blur and DOF if the exposure is wrong?

But that's just the point! What the camera's metering thinks is "correct exposure" may not be the "exposure" you want: that's why EC is needed in all modes relying on the camera's metering, P/A/S and M+Auto-ISO.

Exactly.

I think what a lot of people here are having difficulty with is that EC is to change what the camera thinks is the correct exposure - i.e. make it wrong.

With S and A fixed and Auto ISO on, the camera will still give the "correct" exposure. Its "correct" may not be your "correct". The EC control allows you to "de-correct" the camera's choice in ISO to something that you want. The end result is an "incorrect" exposure from the camera's point of view.

Pushing and pulling in PP is the same thing.

This has been around essentially since day one. Many photographers used to and still do lie to the camera about the speed of the film.

Allan

OniMirage Contributing Member • Posts: 990
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rakore wrote:

Why not just assign the exposure compensation option to a function button? EC isn't available in M mode because the dials used are taken over by aperture and shutter. So if you assign EC to a function you can make your adjustments there.

I haven't tested this myself though and my camera is at home so can say if this will work but it's worth a try.

Good idea, but seems not to work.

I tested it yesterday. The only function it served was to allow the use of the arrow keys to make selections instead of the dial. Oh well.

windsprite
windsprite Senior Member • Posts: 2,563
Re: In manual mode, the shutter dial IS the exposure comp.....

tjuster1 wrote:

auto-ISO in M mode (a misnomer, I concede).

Not really, if you consider that since the film days manual mode has never meant "do absolutely everything manually"; it's always just been shorthand for "set both the aperture and shutter speed manually, as opposed to letting the camera set one or both automatically like in A priority, S priority, and P mode."

Julie

 windsprite's gear list:windsprite's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix F100fd Fujifilm FinePix F550 EXR Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ200 Nikon D2H Nikon D300 +42 more
micksh6
micksh6 Senior Member • Posts: 2,613
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rakore wrote:

As for E-M5, it was discovered that this is almost ISO-less camera. After you start raising ISO above base level it doesn't matter much if you underexpose with lower ISO vs expose right with higher ISO. After PP the shots will look the same, that is if you shoot raw. And E-M5 metering is conservative, so you are unlikely to overexpose.

So, when you talk about AutoISO in M mode you don't have to explain why it's needed (although, every time there will be somebody who doesn't know this).

But, when you request EC in this mode you need to add that the only practical effect of EC would be darkening/brightening image in viewfinder. That's all what EC will give you. So, with E-M5 this setting has much less value than with other cameras.

I see your point in terms of image quality, but frankly I don't really care so much what is the optimal method — quality is usually good enough.

EC is useful since it lets you photograph in a what you see is what you get manner. It might also be useful if you — gasp! — don't care to post process.

There are many possible workarounds, for instance using shutter priority if you want the aperture wide open anyway; I can live fine with the E-M5. As I've learned, the Panys dont even have auto ISO in manual...

But Pentax got it right with their TAv mode. To me, that is the most useful mode of them all — and no other brand has it (for the record: I don't even own a Pentax). So I guess you could say this is a plea to all camera manufacturers.

The plea is probably a good initiative. But, practically, it will result lots of time spent explaining why AutoISO is useful in M mode in the first place (exact outcome of the previous threads about this topic).

As was advised earlier, menu Utility->Exposure Shift is the closest solution to what you are trying to achieve.

 micksh6's gear list:micksh6's gear list
Olympus PEN E-PL5 Olympus E-M1 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm F4.0-5.6 Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +6 more
Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 30,480
Imagining a nice camera.

Reading most of the thread it seems that the ideal camera for the dedicated Manual mode user should have 3 convenient to use dials.

Aperture - selectable in 1 stop/ 1/2 stop, 1/3 stop increments.

Shutter speed - selectable in 1 stop/ 1/2 stop, 1/3 stop increments.

ISO - selectable in 1 stop/ 1/2 stop, 1/3 AND 1/6 stop increments.

The film days hangover of having only two convenient dials for shutter and aperture needs updating.

Of course in future touch screens will replace mechanical dials as they are cheaper to make and maintain, so imagine 3 touch sliders on the screen for Aperture/Shutter/ISO.

By that time the die-hard viewfinder users will have all died out and the upcoming generation of rear screen only users will fully accept this setup.

My crystal ball is working well today....

Regards....... Guy

 Guy Parsons's gear list:Guy Parsons's gear list
Olympus PEN E-P5 Olympus PEN E-PL1 Olympus PEN E-P3 Olympus PEN E-PL5 +2 more
Mingjai
Mingjai Senior Member • Posts: 1,401
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

Alan_W1 wrote:

Ive never felt the need for this option, although i can see it may be useful in certain circumstances.

I would be happy having the option, providing it can be disabled when not required.

My panasonic gh2 "does" use auto iso in M mode, although this is with video only.

Coming from a generation where M meant fully manual {and as someone who remains fully manual today...apart from AF}, i immediately set my gh2 to M when i first aquired this camera {assuming M meant M, in the traditional sense}, and proceeded to ruin some unrepeatable video footage.

Fortunately a couple of chaps on this forum pointed out this problem {the handbook was a bit vague}, and i now use the other Manual mode for video.

I wish the GH1 allowed auto-ISO in M mode for video. If I choose to shoot at a 180 degree shutter angle to get natural-looking video, that means I have to fix the shutter speed at 1/50s or 1/120s depending on my framerate. If I further want to fix the aperture to achieve a certain visual effect, then it would be really helpful for the camera to automatically choose the sensor sensitivity for the scene.

 Mingjai's gear list:Mingjai's gear list
Panasonic G85 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm F4.0-5.6 Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 Leica Nocticron 42.5mm Panasonic Leica DG Summilux 15mm F1.7 ASPH +18 more
rrr_hhh Veteran Member • Posts: 6,022
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rakore wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

aVolanche wrote:

drpoop wrote:

Why?

You can set shutter speed + aperture...then allow the iso to float for "correct exposure". Having exposure compensation in M-mode allows you to darken or lighten the images (ex: in a back-lit photo). If you use exposure compensation in any mode, you know why it's needed.

But when you fix the ISOs and change that parameter instead of letting it float, you get the same results as with an exposure compensation dial ! Since one wheel will be for shutter and the other for aperture, you will still have to press an Fn button to get to the exposure compensation parameter. I don't see how that can be any different than the actual situation.

You can assign EC to one of the arrow buttons, for instance. One press on the button and you control EC with left and right arrow button. It's more convenient, and as I've explained to you before it lets you keep the EC constant for every scene, wheres if you manually select the ISO you would have to change it more.

But :

1) you can affect ISO to a button too.

2) if you want to keep the EC constant in a scene, then why not use ISO directly ?

-- hide signature --

rrr_hhh

 rrr_hhh's gear list:rrr_hhh's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EOS 6D Sony a7R Olympus E-M5 II Sony a7R II +5 more
rrr_hhh Veteran Member • Posts: 6,022
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rakore wrote:

rrr_hhh wrote:

rakore wrote:

I just don't get the "cumbersom" aspect. I understand the technical nature of HOW EC with Auto ISO in Manual mode works, but really.... WHY?

To me the answer is obvious: With auto ISO in manual mode EC is just as juseful as in any other mode. The real question is: Why is there no EC in this mode when it's available in any other mode?

Because Olympus isn't Nikon and each manufacturer has its own philosophy ?

Really you don't change ISOs as much as shutter and aperture. So when on a scene put your camera on auto ISO and see which ISO the camera picks, should you need that for your confidence, then set the camera at that ISO and use an Fn button to call the ISOs and change them the same way you would use an exp. comp. dial.

This s a no brainer.

I'll try and explain it to you with a concrete example: Let's say you're shooting in a bar. Ambient light is generally low, but in some scenes bright rays of light cut through. Your subject is a person standing relatively still at the bar while people dance in the background. You figure a nice shutter speed will blur the motion in the background while keeping the still person sharp, so you set it to 1/15. Your're using the Oly/45 and don't want to shoot wide open, so you set it to 2.8. You don't want these values to change.

This puts you in manual mode. If you don't use auto ISO, for every change you make in point of view you would likely have to tweak the ISO a little because of different metering. So lets say for convenience you turn on auto ISO. But now you see a shadow falling over a part of the subjects face, whcih gives a nice visual effect. You want to underexpose to make the shadow darker, and you want to keep it underexposed even when you change point of view and get different metering.

There's no way to acheive this on the E-M5 as is. You would have to manipulate the ISO, which is unconvenient.

You can also think about it more abstractly: In S mode you can control shutter speed and ISO and leave aperture to the camera; in A mode you leave shutter speed to the camera. In both scenarious you have EC. Now why is there not a combination where you can control shutter and aperture, leave ISO to the camera and still get EC? There is no good reason for it.

I'm basically requesting a new mode, and I think the reason it's hard for many to grasp the usefulness is that on most cameras this mode has never existed, so you don't see it as an option. But use your imagination. It is, indeed, a no brainer.

The easiest work around then is to use AEL if ynegative to underexposed, point the camera at something slightly brighter, if you want to over expose, point the camera at something a little brighter ; then reframe check that the light is ok and shoot.

Although in your example I don't think that you would still need the same EC if you change your point of  view.

-- hide signature --

rrr_hhh

 rrr_hhh's gear list:rrr_hhh's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EOS 6D Sony a7R Olympus E-M5 II Sony a7R II +5 more
rrr_hhh Veteran Member • Posts: 6,022
Just do it the dirty way..

tjuster1 wrote:

Cripes this is not that hard.

EC deliberately over- or under-exposes the picture, compared to a "proper" exposure, as metered by the camera, which is created by a balance of shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. It doesn't matter which variable--aperture, shutter speed, or ISO--is used to adjust the exposure to its "proper" value. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Exposure compensation is still needed in cases where the "proper" exposure isn't, in fact, optimal for a particular image. We all know when that can occur--very high-contrast scenes, for example, where one commonly needs to decrease exposure to avoid blowing out highlights. (And even the OM-D can blow out highlights, which can never be recovered.)

I wonder if 90% of the confusion in here is because people who only use Panasonic m43 cameras have never experienced the benefits of auto-ISO in M mode (a misnomer, I concede).

You can get what you want very easily : just use your wrist and point the camera in another direction, when you are happy with exposure, lock it with a half pressure of the shutter or the AEL/AFL button and reframe. If you aren't satisfied with the exposure try picking the light from elsewhere. This is a dirty, but very effective way to get exposure compensation. It works even with the matrix meter, not only with the spotmeter. Usually, when outdoor, the lower you point the camera, the more you are over exposing and the higher you point it, the more you are under exposing. Indoor, or by night, just look for artificial lights or shadows.

Of course this supposes that you have separated AEL from AFL and affected one to an Fn button and the other to the half shutter pressure. That your technique isn't limited to a single crushing of the shutter all the way down, but that focusing, metering, framing and shooting are all distinct steps when you take a picture.

Whether you are using the EC or the dirty way, you will have to make a visual assessment of you xposure or to rely on the shadows/highlights blinkies, so there isn't much difference. In fact I use this dirty trick quite often, even in aperture mode (my favorite shooting mode).

-- hide signature --

rrr_hhh

 rrr_hhh's gear list:rrr_hhh's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EOS 6D Sony a7R Olympus E-M5 II Sony a7R II +5 more
panos_m Senior Member • Posts: 1,460
Re: A plea to Olympus: Exposure compenastion in manual mode on the E-M5

rakore wrote:

I like to use the E-M5 in manual mode with auto ISO. It lets me control the two variables of the exposure triangle I'm most concerned about, and at the same time releaves me from having to factor in ISO as a third factor.

However, I haven't found a way to set exposure compensation on the E-M5 in this mode. I think Pentax allows it in its TAv mode (aperture and shutter mode), and I think some high end Nikons allow it too. This would be a very useful feature and should be doable with a firmware fix.

You are right . It would be a very useful addition. Anything that has to do with the customization of the camera shooting controls is welcomed. Another useful feature (which I don't know if it's possible with E-M5) when in auto-iso and manual mode is the ability to lock the shutter speed and aperture dials to avoid change them accidentally.

-- hide signature --

Panagiotis

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads