shutter shock

Started Nov 12, 2012 | Discussions
Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,466
Re: Have a listen......

Skip wrote:

Anders W wrote:

Not inferior but different. An MFT shutter does double duty. Unlike the shutter on a DSLR using its OVF, it is open (for live view), when the shutter button is pressed. It then first has to close (to reset the sensor prior to exposure), then open (for exposure), then close again (for readout), and finally open again (to continue live view).

The first part of this sequence (shutter closing before exposure) is somewhat analogous to the mirror slap on an SLR and is responsible for at least part of the shutter shock (perhaps the most significant part). On Oly (but not Pany) bodies, there is something analogous to mirror lock-up known as the anti-shock setting. This setting introduces a delay between the time the shutter closes prior to exposure and its opening again for exposure, thereby eliminating the shock caused by the first stage of shutter action.

Thanks for the explanation. I now get the difference in operation between mft and dslr. How does the mft operation compare to say my fz150? Does it have that same close-open-close-open cycle?

Yes, I would think so although I am not perfectly sure. Some mirrorless cameras, e.g., recent NEX models, have a sensor that makes the first half of the four-stage shutter action redundant. More specifically, they can reset the sensor prior to exposure without closing the mechanical shutter first (known as an electronic first curtain). This in turn means that exposure can begin without any mechanical shutter action (at least at lower shutter speeds, where you don't need a slit to minimize exposure). All the mechanical shutter has to do is to end exposure by closing itself and then open again after readout to continue live view.

I would guess we might soon see something similar on MFT cameras, unless the idea is preempted by a full-blown global electronic shutter, eliminating the mechanical shutter altogether.

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Skip
Skip Senior Member • Posts: 1,892
Re: Have a listen......

JL and Anders, thanks for the explanations. I current have an fz150 and a Nikon D200. I'm about to abandon them both in favor of a G5. I just wanted to know a little more about what I'm getting in to. I guess that once the problem is properly understood it is easier to cope with it.

Thanks again.

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Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,466
Re: Have a listen......

Skip wrote:

JL and Anders, thanks for the explanations. I current have an fz150 and a Nikon D200. I'm about to abandon them both in favor of a G5. I just wanted to know a little more about what I'm getting in to. I guess that once the problem is properly understood it is easier to cope with it.

Thanks again.

From a shutter shock point of view, the electronic shutter available as an option on the G5 is certainly an advantage. It won't help you out all the time, but it certainly will in quite a few cases. I'd much appreciate to have that option on my E-M5 too. Perhaps you have already seen this thread with a link to a test of the G5 electronic shutter against a mechanical one:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3335675

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Guy Parsons
Guy Parsons Forum Pro • Posts: 27,728
Re: Have a listen......

Skip wrote: On a typical dslr was the mirror slap masking shutter slap, or do the mft's use some sort of inferior shutter design?

The M4/3 have the same old focal plane shutter mechanism, but it is a bit smaller, and it does the double flippy thing because of live view - but the main problem is probably that the mass of the M4/3 body is so small.

Shooting my E-PL1 I can feel the shake of the shutter mechanism, but do the same with my old film days Nikon F801s and the noise is maybe a bit less and I cannot feel the body vibrate despite the mirror and the bigger shutter mechanism flapping about. The difference being the big heavy SLR body versus the teeny-tiny light E-PL1 body.

My theoretical fix is to bolt a chunk of lead to the tripod screw to make the body heavier and not jolt around so much, one day I might even get around to trying that silly move.

Eventually the global shutter or some sort of high speed switchable LCD blockout filter will arrive and solve the problems.

Regards..... Guy

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Peter Heckert2
Peter Heckert2 Contributing Member • Posts: 520
Re: shutter shock - Mechanical resonance effect.
1

Hi,

I believe it is a matter of accidential resonances.

If the optics is vibrating, the image becomes unsharp.

Also you can get an unsharp image using a heavy and stiff tripod and get a sharp image which a lighter tripod that is well dampened. Sometimes loosening the mounting plate at the tripod helps, because this surpresses resonances.

Look this:

With the supporting srew in the middle I get almost no blur.

The arrangement is already very stable without this screw, but this screw makes it really stiff and prevents vibrations.

Without the screw I get blur. It is not camera shake blur. The blur is caused by an unstable vibrating lens.

Probably in most cases one would get less blur, if the camera is supported by the hand, because this dampens vibrations. So, using a tripod /can/ have an adverse effect.

Best,

Peter

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,466
Re: shutter shock - Mechanical resonance effect.

Peter Heckert2 wrote:

Hi,

I believe it is a matter of accidential resonances.

If the optics is vibrating, the image becomes unsharp.

Also you can get an unsharp image using a heavy and stiff tripod and get a sharp image which a lighter tripod that is well dampened. Sometimes loosening the mounting plate at the tripod helps, because this surpresses resonances.

Look this:

With the supporting srew in the middle I get almost no blur.

The arrangement is already very stable without this screw, but this screw makes it really stiff and prevents vibrations.

Without the screw I get blur. It is not camera shake blur. The blur is caused by an unstable vibrating lens.

Probably in most cases one would get less blur, if the camera is supported by the hand, because this dampens vibrations. So, using a tripod /can/ have an adverse effect.

Best,

Peter

I understand what you are saying when you suggest that supporting the camera by hand might give less vibration due to shutter shock than when it is tripod-mounted. Having experimented with this quite a bit (see the links in my first post in this thread), however, I am ready to say that this is not the case in practice. Although I have encountered cases where I get blur due to shutter-shock even with the camera on a tripod and even with anti-shock enabled (e.g., with my 100-300 at the long end), I have yet to encounter a case where the shutter shock is more troublesome when shooting from a tripod than when shooting hand-held. As a rule, it is the other way around. Except with very long FLs, you'd be hard pressed to see much, if any, shutter-shock effect with camera on a tripod.

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Zensu11
Zensu11 Senior Member • Posts: 1,542
Re: shutter shock - Mechanical resonance effect.

This is great to hear about! Here I am happily skipping through u43's land and THUD! another issue for a paranoid photographer like me. Thanks!

Sgt_Strider Senior Member • Posts: 2,275
Re: shutter shock

Anders,

What shutter speed should be avoided? I mainly use my GX1 with the Panny 25mm f/1.4 lens.

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,466
Re: shutter shock

Sgt_Strider wrote:

Anders,

What shutter speed should be avoided? I mainly use my GX1 with the Panny 25mm f/1.4 lens.

The problem usually peaks at 1/125 plus/minus 1/3 EV. It usually disappears more or less completely if you go about one EV faster than the peak (say to 1/250 or 1/320). It also disappears, but more gradually, as you go slower than the peak and there is usually little left of it at 1/25 (though it may still be visible if you check carefully).

I have no personal experience with the GX1 but based on the reports I have seen, it appears to be unusually badly hit by the problem. On the other hand, the magnitude of the problem also varies with the lens used, and the 25/1.4 is not among the prime suspects here.

In general, I suggest you do a little testing for yourself and see what you find. Although the shutter-shock issue is real, it isn't always of such a magnitude that it becomes really bothersome. If you find that it is in your case, with at least some of your lenses (note that the magnitude of the problem may vary with the FL used if it's a zoom we are talking about), there are ways to work around it. Avoiding certain shutter speeds is one of them but not the only one. Here's a report on my own experiences with the E-M5 and the lenses I use with it along with some words about the work-arounds I practice:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52603448

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Steen Bay Veteran Member • Posts: 6,974
Re: shutter shock

Anders W wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

Anders,

What shutter speed should be avoided? I mainly use my GX1 with the Panny 25mm f/1.4 lens.

The problem usually peaks at 1/125 plus/minus 1/3 EV. It usually disappears more or less completely if you go about one EV faster than the peak (say to 1/250 or 1/320). It also disappears, but more gradually, as you go slower than the peak and there is usually little left of it at 1/25 (though it may still be visible if you check carefully).

I have no personal experience with the GX1 but based on the reports I have seen, it appears to be unusually badly hit by the problem. On the other hand, the magnitude of the problem also varies with the lens used, and the 25/1.4 is not among the prime suspects here.

Yes, the GX1 seems to be hit rather badly. See for example this recent post/thread :

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52976844

In general, I suggest you do a little testing for yourself and see what you find. Although the shutter-shock issue is real, it isn't always of such a magnitude that it becomes really bothersome. If you find that it is in your case, with at least some of your lenses (note that the magnitude of the problem may vary with the FL used if it's a zoom we are talking about), there are ways to work around it. Avoiding certain shutter speeds is one of them but not the only one. Here's a report on my own experiences with the E-M5 and the lenses I use with it along with some words about the work-arounds I practice:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52603448

Sgt_Strider Senior Member • Posts: 2,275
Re: shutter shock

Anders W wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

Anders,

What shutter speed should be avoided? I mainly use my GX1 with the Panny 25mm f/1.4 lens.

The problem usually peaks at 1/125 plus/minus 1/3 EV. It usually disappears more or less completely if you go about one EV faster than the peak (say to 1/250 or 1/320). It also disappears, but more gradually, as you go slower than the peak and there is usually little left of it at 1/25 (though it may still be visible if you check carefully).

I have no personal experience with the GX1 but based on the reports I have seen, it appears to be unusually badly hit by the problem. On the other hand, the magnitude of the problem also varies with the lens used, and the 25/1.4 is not among the prime suspects here.

In general, I suggest you do a little testing for yourself and see what you find. Although the shutter-shock issue is real, it isn't always of such a magnitude that it becomes really bothersome. If you find that it is in your case, with at least some of your lenses (note that the magnitude of the problem may vary with the FL used if it's a zoom we are talking about), there are ways to work around it. Avoiding certain shutter speeds is one of them but not the only one. Here's a report on my own experiences with the E-M5 and the lenses I use with it along with some words about the work-arounds I practice:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52603448

So basically both the GX1 and GH3 doesn't have that 1/8 second delay feature (Olympus cameras) to help deal with shutter shock?

Anders W Forum Pro • Posts: 21,466
Re: shutter shock

Sgt_Strider wrote:

Anders W wrote:

Sgt_Strider wrote:

Anders,

What shutter speed should be avoided? I mainly use my GX1 with the Panny 25mm f/1.4 lens.

The problem usually peaks at 1/125 plus/minus 1/3 EV. It usually disappears more or less completely if you go about one EV faster than the peak (say to 1/250 or 1/320). It also disappears, but more gradually, as you go slower than the peak and there is usually little left of it at 1/25 (though it may still be visible if you check carefully).

I have no personal experience with the GX1 but based on the reports I have seen, it appears to be unusually badly hit by the problem. On the other hand, the magnitude of the problem also varies with the lens used, and the 25/1.4 is not among the prime suspects here.

In general, I suggest you do a little testing for yourself and see what you find. Although the shutter-shock issue is real, it isn't always of such a magnitude that it becomes really bothersome. If you find that it is in your case, with at least some of your lenses (note that the magnitude of the problem may vary with the FL used if it's a zoom we are talking about), there are ways to work around it. Avoiding certain shutter speeds is one of them but not the only one. Here's a report on my own experiences with the E-M5 and the lenses I use with it along with some words about the work-arounds I practice:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52603448

So basically both the GX1 and GH3 doesn't have that 1/8 second delay feature (Olympus cameras) to help deal with shutter shock?

Right. But the GH3 has an electronic shutter and with both you can try practicing the holding technique I recommend. As I say in the post I linked to, I personally don't get see much improvement with the 1/8 second anti-shock delay when I try to hold the camera right.

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