This is gonna upset some of you.....

Started Nov 5, 2012 | Discussions
John M Roberts Senior Member • Posts: 2,476
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

verybiglebowski wrote:

John M Roberts wrote:

verybiglebowski wrote:

You mean your original definition : "Flame retardant suit is on....so let er rip."

Look, I don't want to start even more senseless debate with you, I just don't see any point in your OP the way you presented it. On the other hand, I can imagine a nice debate - what are benefits and dissadvantages of using APS-C or even smaller sensor size, versus FF for the landscape, or for some other situation.

I can make technically great landscape shot with even smaller and cheaper camera such as NEX 5, and many others can do even better with m4/3 or 1" cameras. What I can't understand, from a talented and experienced person like you, are posts involving the most senseless debates - which camera is better, or - you should be upset because you spent more money for the D800 and D300 can do equally well. You are too good photographer for such a childish thread.

You make some reasonable suggestions as to how to display a post without encouraging flame. I did not comprehend his original point as to say that the differences between the D800's and earlier models were pointless or to your interpretation of his point "which camera is better." He just stated within a particular parameter the differences could be slight for some who don't utilize it to a greater potential. I'm sure there is no doubt in his mind how much more beneficial that camera will be in his hands than what his D300 is.

If he would say it the way you did, I would remain silent. I almost never enter flaming debates. But he didn't, and I think we have more then enough flaming threads here, so I was provoked to react.

Instead of apologizing for at least inappropriate subject line, he kept committing to it, and most of all, I still don't see any valuable contribution in his OP. (appart of the nice image) Because even your formulation has same validity for any cameras, lenses or other equipment comparison. "Within particular parameter, the differences could be slight." That's obvious, no?

Yes it is and I see your point. It may not be obvious to some of those that go to the trouble of spending their money on equipment that they think will provide them better images for the application they are aiming for and not realize that there money might have been better spent on education of free time and extra money to go travel to areas of photographic interest. Each to their own reasons though.

I found your Oct 15 blog interesting.

xrdbear Veteran Member • Posts: 3,908
Re: This will upset you but the D300 is superior

Richard wrote:

If you orders a D800e then you are going to be disappointed, the D300 image is better, has more DR, better color and almost a 3d look to it. The D800 image is flat, glad I didn't get one.

Funny you should say so but I agree, though I don't know why it should be. It may be just the scaling, I can't conceive it should be any difference between the cameras.

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Brian
Fine Art Print sales of the Isle of Skye at:
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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,154
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....
2

RomanJohnston wrote:

You all know...my D800 days ARE coming. (D800E to be exact) but there are always arguments from and about people and needing gear vs. wanting gear......better cameras = better work....blah blah blah.

Here are two shots. I was at the gardens and a very nice fellow had a D800 where I was shooting and we struck up a conversation. He was nice enough to allow me to put my card in his rig and rip off a few rounds. Below are similar results. D300 is the tighter crop, D800 is the wider shot of the whole falls.

Keep in mind this is geared toward the people who say they only post on the web or print small. Yes I know this is anything but scientific...yes I know I can print MUCH larger with the D800 shot. But in the DX vs. FX world.....and considering these two cameras are about 6.5 years of technology apart (huge in dog years) the end result can easily show that both cameras are very capable and that you dont need the newest and most amazing wizbang camera to produce compelling results.

Flame retardant suit is on....so let er rip.

D300 shot...( purposfully desaturated the reds a bit)

D800 Shot

It doesn't upset me, because I frequently make the point that if you take the same picture with two cameras, the sensor size becomes not very important. having said that, these photos are more different than they seem. The D300 is set to 0.8 seconds, f/7.1 (6 EV) , while the D800 is 2 seconds, f/9 (5.3 EV). To get the same photo, you needed the D800 set to 0.8 seconds,  f/11 (7.25 EV) which would precisely cancel the D800's 1.15 stop light gathering advantage. The D800 still has a big QE advantage though, which won't be apparent with this high an exposure.

So, the conditions of a photo like this is that most cameras would have taken the photo much the same.

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Bob

verybiglebowski
verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 3,882
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

RomanJohnston wrote:

verybiglebowski wrote:

RomanJohnston wrote:


You make some reasonable suggestions as to how to display a post without encouraging flame. I did not comprehend his original point as to say that the differences between the D800's and earlier models were pointless or to your interpretation of his point "which camera is better." He just stated within a particular parameter the differences could be slight for some who don't utilize it to a greater potential. I'm sure there is no doubt in his mind how much more beneficial that camera will be in his hands than what his D300 is.

If he would say it the way you did, I would remain silent. I almost never enter flaming debates. But he didn't, and I think we have more then enough flaming threads here, so I was provoked to react.

Forgive me but I have to call BS on the "provoked to react". We (and I hold myself to the same standard) all have full control of how we react to each other. That's not a shot at you...its a standard of conduct that I value.

Instead of apologizing for at least inappropriate subject line, he kept committing to it, and most of all, I still don't see any valuable contribution in his OP. (appart of the nice image) Because even your formulation has same validity for any cameras, lenses or other equipment comparison. "Within particular parameter, the differences could be slight." That's obvious, no?

I don't think my subject line was "inappropriate". You wont such behavior from me. Sorry it did not meet your filters. My point was....as there are always posts here about "should I buy this camera for landscapes....vs. that....(IE usually a D600 or D800 vs their perfectly fine D7000) and they print no larger than 12"x 18"....my point is perfectly honed WITH examples.

So sorry you did not like my post.

Roman

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The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
~ Albert Einstein
http://www.commercialfineart.com/
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

Sorry to you if you think I was rude, and I am sorry that you don't consider my remarks as positive, and yes I have to call your OP and following argumentation BS too.

So we can move along, each by its own....

Sounds fair and reasonable.No harm, no foul.

See you on the next thread we bump into one another on.

Roman

-- hide signature --

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
~ Albert Einstein
http://www.commercialfineart.com/
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

No harm for sure and good light to you. You have some really nice images.

4x5 Guy Senior Member • Posts: 1,341
Re: This will upset you but the D300 is superior
1

Richard wrote:

If you orders a D800e then you are going to be disappointed, the D300 image is better, has more DR, better color and almost a 3d look to it. The D800 image is flat, glad I didn't get one.

When you read something as absurd as this, you know you are smack in the face of BS. What is really pathetic is that you probably really believe this.

Your even worse than roman.

verybiglebowski
verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 3,882
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

John M Roberts wrote

I found your Oct 15 blog interesting.

Thanks. I was mad for screwing up D800 results that day, and for not including D4 and 1DX for comparison when I had a chance. But my beer was worming up, so I had to do it fast 

paulski66
paulski66 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,115
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....
1

RomanJohnston wrote:


I still don't see the reason for a title like that. You showed one landscape comparison and make it as a thing that can "upset some of you". Why it should?

Go to the specific situation where the differences (benefits) can be shown either way and title

Obviously you haven't read some of the other "upset" responses.

Those were the "Some of you" that I was referring to. I knew it was inevitable.

Roman

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The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
~ Albert Einstein
http://www.commercialfineart.com/
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

This is moronic.

As I said before, you've set up a straw man argument, and now you're gloating over your perceived "victory."

I haven't seen anyone who was upset here over your original premise; some are irritated by your silly attempts at trolling and bemused by your immaturity, but no one here seems threatened by your assertion that the d300 is still a capable camera.

And for what it's worth, I imagine a d40 could have taken either of those pictures in the OP as well. As could my LX-5. I hope that doesn't upset you.

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RomanJohnston
OP RomanJohnston Forum Pro • Posts: 18,806
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

paulski66 wrote:

RomanJohnston wrote:


I still don't see the reason for a title like that. You showed one landscape comparison and make it as a thing that can "upset some of you". Why it should?

Go to the specific situation where the differences (benefits) can be shown either way and title

Obviously you haven't read some of the other "upset" responses.

Those were the "Some of you" that I was referring to. I knew it was inevitable.

Roman

-- hide signature --

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
~ Albert Einstein
http://www.commercialfineart.com/
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

This is moronic.

As I said before, you've set up a straw man argument, and now you're gloating over your perceived "victory."

I haven't seen anyone who was upset here over your original premise; some are irritated by your silly attempts at trolling and bemused by your immaturity, but no one here seems threatened by your assertion that the d300 is still a capable camera.

And for what it's worth, I imagine a d40 could have taken either of those pictures in the OP as well. As could my LX-5. I hope that doesn't upset you.

Wow....you read gloating into my answer....or some percieved victory? Really. Methinks you read WAY too much into my posts. Not upset in the least. I hae shots from my coolpix that I wish I could print huge.

Roman

-- hide signature --

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
~ Albert Einstein
http://www.commercialfineart.com/
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

backayonder Senior Member • Posts: 1,200
Shame you didn't have your Iphone with you.
1

Would loved to have seen the same photo taken with a phone. Well maybe not.

D800, D300s, D200, FX, DX, Canon 5d, Fuji, Leica, box brownie. etc etc.. who cares just shoot and be happy.

DaveOl
DaveOl Veteran Member • Posts: 3,191
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

VadimOm wrote:

Not sure why you picked D300 to compare. Why not D70? I've seen incredible amount of amazing landscape work shot with it when it first came out... 8 years ago or so?

I've got rid of my D300 long time ago so I can't speak to its capabilities, however, when I compared a landscape shot (just a bunch of trees in the back yard) from D800 to D700 - they were not anywhere close to one another. The level of details D800 resolved was mind blowing - it was showing tiniest leaves which were complete blur on D700....

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If you have thiis comparison of the

d700 vs  D800 pictures available of the leaves, how about posting them.

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FlossTycoon Veteran Member • Posts: 3,904
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....



I bought my D800E this summer and offer no apologies. Once you open a couple of the files you just get giddy. You are so proud you just want to share what you found with others.

Roman, enjoy your D800E, you have been ruined for anything less.

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Alan, in Montana

JUNED DRAJAT PRASETYO Junior Member • Posts: 36
I prefer the full frame version....

Since I can included the bottom of the water fall

But I still with my D700

57even Forum Pro • Posts: 11,314
I like all my cameras

24MP, 16MP and 12MP.

I can't print quite as big on the smaller sensors, but I still have lots of shots I love from all of them.

Sometimes the best camera is the one you have with you. I do NOT carry a D600 with me everywhere.

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Fujifilm X-Pro2
Patco Forum Pro • Posts: 13,180
Re: "newbie-ass BS" or "Oh please" which is belligerent?

John M Roberts wrote:

Theodoros, please spell out what PM's is. I should probably know but I'm not getting it. Thanks.

Personal message or private message

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Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels

jjnik Senior Member • Posts: 1,319
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....
1

RomanJohnston wrote:

You all know...my D800 days ARE coming. (D800E to be exact) but there are always arguments from and about people and needing gear vs. wanting gear......better cameras = better work....blah blah blah.

Here are two shots. I was at the gardens and a very nice fellow had a D800 where I was shooting and we struck up a conversation. He was nice enough to allow me to put my card in his rig and rip off a few rounds. Below are similar results. D300 is the tighter crop, D800 is the wider shot of the whole falls.

Keep in mind this is geared toward the people who say they only post on the web or print small. Yes I know this is anything but scientific...yes I know I can print MUCH larger with the D800 shot. But in the DX vs. FX world.....and considering these two cameras are about 6.5 years of technology apart (huge in dog years) the end result can easily show that both cameras are very capable and that you dont need the newest and most amazing wizbang camera to produce compelling results.

Flame retardant suit is on....so let er rip.

-- hide signature --

The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
~ Albert Einstein
http://www.commercialfineart.com/
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

Not sure your point is valid - the D800 shot looks significantly better on my 27 calibrated monitor - more detailed, vibrant and more depth to it, especially in the shadows (and it's a wider view, so it would be even more detailed if framed the same). So, to me, you just proved that even at a small size the D800 advantage is obvious.  Of course, it would help if you got the exposure the same too.

f bass Regular Member • Posts: 223
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

:-)Nothing like "wormed beer"  Jim

f bass Regular Member • Posts: 223
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

:-)verybiglebowski wrote:

John M Roberts wrote

I found your Oct 15 blog interesting.

Thanks. I was mad for screwing up D800 results that day, and for not including D4 and 1DX for comparison when I had a chance. But my beer was worming up, so I had to do it fast

Nothing like "wormed beer" Jim

verybiglebowski
verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 3,882
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

f bass wrote:

:-)verybiglebowski wrote:

John M Roberts wrote

I found your Oct 15 blog interesting.

Thanks. I was mad for screwing up D800 results that day, and for not including D4 and 1DX for comparison when I had a chance. But my beer was worming up, so I had to do it fast

Nothing like "wormed beer" Jim

Blah. That's a crime on a beer.

Rick Knepper Forum Pro • Posts: 14,911
Stay out of this

John M Roberts wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

xrdbear wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

RomanJohnston wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:


Then post your newbie-ass BS on the crop forum where folks need the validation even if it is false. What do you [possible hope to gain from such a ridiculous comparison?

What do you hope to gain by being so unnecessarily rude?

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Brian
Fine Art Print sales of the Isle of Skye at:
http://www.eyeofskye.co.uk/

I was trying to be helpful in my first post because he does not appear to know the first thing about digital imaging and maybe you do not either. But was his repsonse to my initial post not belligerent and rude to begin with?

Here's his response (which you conveniently chose to omit):

"Oh please...I got a shot of the entire falls in my D300 as well. This is just the one I processed. This is not about crop...its about quality...any lens can be bought for either system to get the desired results."

This entire paragraph is a ridiculous statement which he will quietly distance himself from over time.

What I hope to gain? that he will think twice next time about posting a smart-ass response to me or anyone else who is trying to help him.

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Rick Knepper, photographer, non-professional, shooting for pleasure, check my profile for gear list and philosophy.

Rick, "Oh Please..." can hardly be taken as belligerent. It had some attitude I will admit but nothing near to your attack response which surprises me especially that it came from a computer consultant. Why couldn't you maintain some professional composure as you most certainly would for your clients?

Now to say Roman appears not to know the first thing about digital imaging from his post is such a stretch. And if he or even I don't, so what? His statement was made to a specific criteria. Who needs to be a mastermind at digital imaging to understand his point. His product which I and many others admire does speak for itself. I checked your profile and found little to represent your capabilities and even if you had great images to share, your conduct would still not be warranted.

Why are you going on about this? What is your emotional need here?

The OP's tone was dismissive when my intent was to help. I do not like my hand being bit. I will not put up with it from anyone including the likes of you.

By the way, what was the original point? I'd like to see it stated in your own words.

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Rick Knepper, photographer, non-professional, shooting for pleasure, check my profile for gear list and philosophy.

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Rick Knepper Forum Pro • Posts: 14,911
Please accept my apologies too.
1

RomanJohnston wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

xrdbear wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

RomanJohnston wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:


Then post your newbie-ass BS on the crop forum where folks need the validation even if it is false. What do you [possible hope to gain from such a ridiculous comparison?

What do you hope to gain by being so unnecessarily rude?

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Brian
Fine Art Print sales of the Isle of Skye at:
http://www.eyeofskye.co.uk/

I was trying to be helpful in my first post because he does not appear to know the first thing about digital imaging and maybe you do not either. But was his repsonse to my initial post not belligerent and rude to begin with?

Here's his response (which you conveniently chose to omit):

"Oh please...I got a shot of the entire falls in my D300 as well. This is just the one I processed. This is not about crop...its about quality...any lens can be bought for either system to get the desired results."

This entire paragraph is a ridiculous statement which he will quietly distance himself from over time.

What I hope to gain? that he will think twice next time about posting a smart-ass response to me or anyone else who is trying to help him.

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Rick Knepper, photographer, non-professional, shooting for pleasure, check my profile for gear list and philosophy.

That was help? Maybe I misunderstood. I have been here helping people in the forums including this one (D2H and D2X in the past) for quite a few years. My work stands on its own two feet....

Simple point is that gear does not matter as much as so many misunderstand. I thought the output of both cameras on a scene I have recorded with a Hassy MF back (40 MP at the time), Now D800, D300, D2X, D2H, D70

Will post all that I have later....I was most interested in the MF and the D800 comparison that I will post soon. These just happened to be the first ones I processed. So will provide more later.

My apologies if I seemed a bit snarky .

Roman

Yes, that was help. You cannot make a reasoned argument from the two images posted without defining what it is you consider "compelling" and you haven't done that so far.

Here is some more advice that I hope you do not take the wrong way. You are obviously well known in this forum so maybe others who know you filled in the blanks from knowing where you stand on the many topics that abound in this forum. I do not know you so I could only assume from the text presented, rightly or wrongly, that these mis-matched photos were evidence that you have a ways to go in understanding the benefits of high resolution and digital imaging. The point being that you forced an assumption.

When posting to a forum with tens of thousands of participants, to avoid misunderstanding, it is advisable to be as explicit as possible, in this case, defining the term "compelling results". First thing I learned in English Composition (or the first thing that made an impression on me at least) was never to make assumptions about what your readers know. Also, using the DPR profile to list your current and previous equipment and possibly a short bio might have influenced my initial response (though understanding digital imaging doesn't require one to ever have picked up a camera). Being a great communicator with images doesn't necessarily spill over to the written word (not that I am implying anything about your general skill with written composition).

Equipment does matter. For example, I do not see many Leica M9s in the hands of professionals at sporting events. The weapon of choice for landscape is MF. Etc etc. When MF format in digital form becomes affordable for me, I will bid farewell to 135. It's okay to use a D300 to shoot landscape but it is less than productive for anyone to delude themselves that that camera is can do what a D800 can do technically and operationally.

So, let me see if I understand the OP now. Let's say Roman is shooting a porno scene with the D300 and D800, I probably would not be offended by having to look at the D300-produced images. In fact, there may even be some advantage with it's reach and all though a nice, juicy crop from a D800 file might offer more resolution. Bottom-line being that my first reaction to such photos would not be about IQ. Is this on track?

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Rick Knepper, photographer, non-professional, shooting for pleasure, check my profile for gear list and philosophy.

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