This is gonna upset some of you.....

Started Nov 5, 2012 | Discussions
verybiglebowski
verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 3,986
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

John M Roberts wrote:

verybiglebowski wrote:

You mean your original definition : "Flame retardant suit is on....so let er rip."

Look, I don't want to start even more senseless debate with you, I just don't see any point in your OP the way you presented it. On the other hand, I can imagine a nice debate - what are benefits and dissadvantages of using APS-C or even smaller sensor size, versus FF for the landscape, or for some other situation.

I can make technically great landscape shot with even smaller and cheaper camera such as NEX 5, and many others can do even better with m4/3 or 1" cameras. What I can't understand, from a talented and experienced person like you, are posts involving the most senseless debates - which camera is better, or - you should be upset because you spent more money for the D800 and D300 can do equally well. You are too good photographer for such a childish thread.

You make some reasonable suggestions as to how to display a post without encouraging flame. I did not comprehend his original point as to say that the differences between the D800's and earlier models were pointless or to your interpretation of his point "which camera is better." He just stated within a particular parameter the differences could be slight for some who don't utilize it to a greater potential. I'm sure there is no doubt in his mind how much more beneficial that camera will be in his hands than what his D300 is.

If he would say it the way you did, I would remain silent. I almost never enter flaming debates. But he didn't, and I think we have more then enough flaming threads here, so I was provoked to react.

Instead of apologizing for at least inappropriate subject line, he kept committing to it, and most of all, I still don't see any valuable contribution in his OP. (appart of the nice image) Because even your formulation has same validity for any cameras, lenses or other equipment comparison. "Within particular parameter, the differences could be slight." That's obvious, no?

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RomanJohnston
OP RomanJohnston Forum Pro • Posts: 18,824
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

You make some reasonable suggestions as to how to display a post without encouraging flame. I did not comprehend his original point as to say that the differences between the D800's and earlier models were pointless or to your interpretation of his point "which camera is better." He just stated within a particular parameter the differences could be slight for some who don't utilize it to a greater potential. I'm sure there is no doubt in his mind how much more beneficial that camera will be in his hands than what his D300 is.

If he would say it the way you did, I would remain silent. I almost never enter flaming debates. But he didn't, and I think we have more then enough flaming threads here, so I was provoked to react.

Forgive me but I have to call BS on the "provoked to react". We (and I hold myself to the same standard) all have full control of how we react to each other. That's not a shot at you...its a standard of conduct that I value.

Instead of apologizing for at least inappropriate subject line, he kept committing to it, and most of all, I still don't see any valuable contribution in his OP. (appart of the nice image) Because even your formulation has same validity for any cameras, lenses or other equipment comparison. "Within particular parameter, the differences could be slight." That's obvious, no?

I don't think my subject line was "inappropriate". You wont such behavior from me. Sorry it did not meet your filters. My point was....as there are always posts here about "should I buy this camera for landscapes....vs. that....(IE usually a D600 or D800 vs their perfectly fine D7000) and they print no larger than 12"x 18"....my point is perfectly honed WITH examples.

So sorry you did not like my post.

Roman

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painterdude
painterdude Senior Member • Posts: 2,857
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

hey bro the fact of the matter is you did not need a D800 or a 300 or even a DSLR  for that shot. A good P&S or bridge cam (even a 7or 8 year old version of same) would do it as well..at that size.  Good p&s /bridges would not break a sweat getting that image..so I don't get what the comparision is all about..Maybe its just me!!lol

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4x5 Guy Senior Member • Posts: 1,341
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

painterdude wrote:

hey bro the fact of the matter is you did not need a D800 or a 300 or even a DSLR for that shot. A good P&S or bridge cam (even a 7or 8 year old version of same) would do it as well..at that size. Good p&s /bridges would not break a sweat getting that image..so I don't get what the comparision is all about..Maybe its just me!!lol

It's called arrogance and ego. Roman is just that kind of person. Unfortunately he hands around here to spread his FUD.

RomanJohnston
OP RomanJohnston Forum Pro • Posts: 18,824
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

painterdude wrote:

hey bro the fact of the matter is you did not need a D800 or a 300 or even a DSLR for that shot. A good P&S or bridge cam (even a 7or 8 year old version of same) would do it as well..at that size. Good p&s /bridges would not break a sweat getting that image..so I don't get what the comparision is all about..Maybe its just me!!lol

Well that WAS my point. I can print 40" x 60" with the D300...but of course would get better prints at that size with the D800. But for most...the D800, or D600 is not the end all for quality landscape work. A d7000 or D300 would do just fine for most people.

I bet the money they save would go a long way if they took a workshop or classes of some kind. I am sure it wold give a much better return on the investment.

Roman

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The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
~ Albert Einstein
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TITCHY Senior Member • Posts: 1,237
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

nothing like a good roasting eh, Roman.

should have had more sense than to wander into the "forum from hell"

I often wander over here for a browse myself ,but I am not into the angst and pure spitefulness that seems to be growing here lately .

personally If I see a provocative thread I simply shake my head and back off ,leave it to the trolls and the others that have nothing better to do .

so my advice is ,"leave the thread die"  its a no win situation .

I wont be back in this thread ,so reply as colourfully as you like guys.

bye yall.

 TITCHY's gear list:TITCHY's gear list
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mandophoto Contributing Member • Posts: 962
Mr. Johnston....
1

... it appears you enjoy being didactic but the FX forum is the wrong place for this effort. Most folks on this forum are not unaware of the points you make. The consumer forum or even as a general DPR article for beginners would seem a better place for this effort. However, your cynical ending is betraying.

Novens2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,664
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

Hi Roman agree with you and though I wouldn't mind a d600/800 for now I'm going to just enjoy my d300 and my S3. The new cameras are super better high iso resolution (if needed) dynamic range but much can still be done with older cameras. From many pictures posted I think money for many would be better spent on classes or better glass but if they want the bigger better beast all the best

Have a great day

painterdude
painterdude Senior Member • Posts: 2,857
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

Well in all humility Roman, I think your point is rather..well known? Also there are 3 extant realities that mitigate against the worth of the points you raise bro.

1 People who have a true need for the D800 etc will buy it for their known needs. Your post does not apply.

2 People who want it and have no clue what the heck they are getting into will buy it and no amount of reason will stop them. They just want it. Your post will be seen as noise.

3 Reasonable people with no use for the D800 etc will recognize that and do not need persuasion not to buy and take classes etc. instead. Your post does not apply.

I think your words are aimed at those wide eyed folk -arms outstretched reaching for a camera they think will do wonders for their photography (yet  have zero ability to shoot it properly!). IMHO they aren't going to listen ..so I guess in the end your words and examples end up simply being condemnatory criticism.

Perhaps we should just let people be and do what they desire to do. Experience ..particularly with a demanding cam like the D800 will be the best teacher of the unwise and naive.

Just my two cents

all the best

g

 painterdude's gear list:painterdude's gear list
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verybiglebowski
verybiglebowski Veteran Member • Posts: 3,986
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

RomanJohnston wrote:


You make some reasonable suggestions as to how to display a post without encouraging flame. I did not comprehend his original point as to say that the differences between the D800's and earlier models were pointless or to your interpretation of his point "which camera is better." He just stated within a particular parameter the differences could be slight for some who don't utilize it to a greater potential. I'm sure there is no doubt in his mind how much more beneficial that camera will be in his hands than what his D300 is.

If he would say it the way you did, I would remain silent. I almost never enter flaming debates. But he didn't, and I think we have more then enough flaming threads here, so I was provoked to react.

Forgive me but I have to call BS on the "provoked to react". We (and I hold myself to the same standard) all have full control of how we react to each other. That's not a shot at you...its a standard of conduct that I value.

Instead of apologizing for at least inappropriate subject line, he kept committing to it, and most of all, I still don't see any valuable contribution in his OP. (appart of the nice image) Because even your formulation has same validity for any cameras, lenses or other equipment comparison. "Within particular parameter, the differences could be slight." That's obvious, no?

I don't think my subject line was "inappropriate". You wont such behavior from me. Sorry it did not meet your filters. My point was....as there are always posts here about "should I buy this camera for landscapes....vs. that....(IE usually a D600 or D800 vs their perfectly fine D7000) and they print no larger than 12"x 18"....my point is perfectly honed WITH examples.

So sorry you did not like my post.

Roman

Sorry to you if you think I was rude, and I am sorry that you don't consider my remarks as positive, and yes I have to call your OP and following argumentation BS too.

So we can move along, each by its own....

 verybiglebowski's gear list:verybiglebowski's gear list
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garyhgaryh Contributing Member • Posts: 551
Re: For web use sure

Daniel Clune wrote:

For web use a D800 wouldn't be any better than a D300 unless you get way up there in ISO. But for large prints the D800 would be way better. Only other reason for upgrading camera are better focus system or better video again for web use.

So sure your correct. If all you do is web use I would spend my money on lenses to get what you need.

From my experience, my d5100 can take just as good picture as my d800e ... in broad daylight given the same lens.  I actually didn't see too much differences, but the two sensors have good DR.

I haven't compared in low light, but what you're getting with the d800e is the 36MP, the extra DR which you may be able to see, but with the OP's example, the scene does not pose a DR challenge.  You're also getting the better AF, viewfinder, and the nice rugged case.

In most cases, you can take a picture of any ordinary scene with a d300, d5100, d800, and d800e and they will all look fantastic.  It's the edge cases where you want to compare.

Any brand spanking new car can go 55mph, but when you push it, the difference is clear why you bought a corvette over a hyundai.

Gary

jkjond
jkjond Veteran Member • Posts: 8,947
Re: For web use sure

garyhgaryh wrote:

Any brand spanking new car can go 55mph, but when you push it, the difference is clear why you bought a corvette over a hyundai.

Why's that then?

I've found most cars similar to push, though my van is a bit heavy. My mate has a skoda, that's brilliant to push on a cold day as it has a heated rear window.

Gary

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Michael Firstlight Veteran Member • Posts: 3,636
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

Hi Roman.

That exchange calling you a newbie was my laugh for the day

I went from a D300 to the D800 (non E). I just shot a job - 3 murals. The viewing distance for these murals will be only a few feet (an indoor visitor center), not billboard distance. The sizes of the murals? 10 foot by 30 foot, 9 foot by 12 foot, and cute little 4x6 footer.

I needed at least 150-240ppi for printing, and I wanted native pixels, not interpolation. The shots were all landscape images of a lake and forest area - sunrise, sunset, early morning, late day and so on, all with extreme dynamic range. Yes, I stitched the images - between 40 and 100 images for each composite image on average and did use a Gigapan to automate the shots.

Could I have used my D300? Sure. Would I have wanted to - no. Why? For starters, the D800 dynamic range blows the doors off the D300. The FX was much more useful with my 24-70 and 70-200 than a cropped sensor. I REALLY got mileage out of the built in Virtual Horizon and the lower ISO noise level was much better than my D300 - especially in the twilight skies where it really shows even at ISO 100. I was even able to do a few shots using the in camera HDR, but at the end of the day I couldn't resist loading all 100+ 36MP NEFs into CS6 ACR, make synchronized ACR adjustments working easily with the highlights, shadows and sharpening, then saving them out to full size JPEGs for the stitching process. Oh yah, and those 36MPs? Having that many pixels to multiply into gigapixel images was a real boon.

Regards,
Mike

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RomanJohnston
OP RomanJohnston Forum Pro • Posts: 18,824
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

verybiglebowski wrote:

RomanJohnston wrote:


You make some reasonable suggestions as to how to display a post without encouraging flame. I did not comprehend his original point as to say that the differences between the D800's and earlier models were pointless or to your interpretation of his point "which camera is better." He just stated within a particular parameter the differences could be slight for some who don't utilize it to a greater potential. I'm sure there is no doubt in his mind how much more beneficial that camera will be in his hands than what his D300 is.

If he would say it the way you did, I would remain silent. I almost never enter flaming debates. But he didn't, and I think we have more then enough flaming threads here, so I was provoked to react.

Forgive me but I have to call BS on the "provoked to react". We (and I hold myself to the same standard) all have full control of how we react to each other. That's not a shot at you...its a standard of conduct that I value.

Instead of apologizing for at least inappropriate subject line, he kept committing to it, and most of all, I still don't see any valuable contribution in his OP. (appart of the nice image) Because even your formulation has same validity for any cameras, lenses or other equipment comparison. "Within particular parameter, the differences could be slight." That's obvious, no?

I don't think my subject line was "inappropriate". You wont such behavior from me. Sorry it did not meet your filters. My point was....as there are always posts here about "should I buy this camera for landscapes....vs. that....(IE usually a D600 or D800 vs their perfectly fine D7000) and they print no larger than 12"x 18"....my point is perfectly honed WITH examples.

So sorry you did not like my post.

Roman

Sorry to you if you think I was rude, and I am sorry that you don't consider my remarks as positive, and yes I have to call your OP and following argumentation BS too.

So we can move along, each by its own....

Sounds fair and reasonable.No harm, no foul.

See you on the next thread we bump into one another on.

Roman

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The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science.
~ Albert Einstein
http://www.commercialfineart.com/
http://www.pbase.com/romansphotos/

Richard Veteran Member • Posts: 4,858
This will upset you but the D300 is superior

If you orders a D800e then you are going to be disappointed, the D300 image is better, has more DR, better color and almost a 3d look to it. The D800 image is flat, glad I didn't get one.

RomanJohnston wrote:

You all know...my D800 days ARE coming. (D800E to be exact) but there are always arguments from and about people and needing gear vs. wanting gear......better cameras = better work....blah blah blah.

Here are two shots. I was at the gardens and a very nice fellow had a D800 where I was shooting and we struck up a conversation. He was nice enough to allow me to put my card in his rig and rip off a few rounds. Below are similar results. D300 is the tighter crop, D800 is the wider shot of the whole falls.

Keep in mind this is geared toward the people who say they only post on the web or print small. Yes I know this is anything but scientific...yes I know I can print MUCH larger with the D800 shot. But in the DX vs. FX world.....and considering these two cameras are about 6.5 years of technology apart (huge in dog years) the end result can easily show that both cameras are very capable and that you dont need the newest and most amazing wizbang camera to produce compelling results.

Flame retardant suit is on....so let er rip.

D300 shot...( purposfully desaturated the reds a bit)

D800 Shot

xrdbear Veteran Member • Posts: 3,930
Re: For web use sure

jkjond wrote:

garyhgaryh wrote:


Any brand spanking new car can go 55mph, but when you push it, the difference is clear why you bought a corvette over a hyundai.

Why's that then?

I've found most cars similar to push, though my van is a bit heavy. My mate has a skoda, that's brilliant to push on a cold day as it has a heated rear window.

Heh,heh 

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Brian
Fine Art Print sales of the Isle of Skye at:
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Why

John M Roberts Senior Member • Posts: 2,631
Re: "newbie-ass BS" or "Oh please" which is belligerent?

Theodoros, please spell out what PM's is. I should probably know but I'm not getting it. Thanks.

xrdbear Veteran Member • Posts: 3,930
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

RomanJohnston wrote:

painterdude wrote:

hey bro the fact of the matter is you did not need a D800 or a 300 or even a DSLR for that shot. A good P&S or bridge cam (even a 7or 8 year old version of same) would do it as well..at that size. Good p&s /bridges would not break a sweat getting that image..so I don't get what the comparision is all about..Maybe its just me!!lol

Well that WAS my point. I can print 40" x 60" with the D300...but of course would get better prints at that size with the D800. But for most...the D800, or D600 is not the end all for quality landscape work. A d7000 or D300 would do just fine for most people.

I bet the money they save would go a long way if they took a workshop or classes of some kind. I am sure it wold give a much better return on the investment.

Not only that but you can do a decent amount of traveling around with the difference in price too. It's sad that photographers just starting out can be hampered by being conned into spending unnecessarily large amounts of money on equipment.

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Brian
Fine Art Print sales of the Isle of Skye at:
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xrdbear Veteran Member • Posts: 3,930
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....

painterdude wrote:

Well in all humility Roman, I think your point is rather..well known? Also there are 3 extant realities that mitigate against the worth of the points you raise bro.

1 People who have a true need for the D800 etc will buy it for their known needs. Your post does not apply.

2 People who want it and have no clue what the heck they are getting into will buy it and no amount of reason will stop them. They just want it. Your post will be seen as noise.

Certainly his post has brought a lot of these out of the woodwork.

3 Reasonable people with no use for the D800 etc will recognize that and do not need persuasion not to buy and take classes etc. instead. Your post does not apply.

I think your words are aimed at those wide eyed folk -arms outstretched reaching for a camera they think will do wonders for their photography (yet have zero ability to shoot it properly!). IMHO they aren't going to listen ..so I guess in the end your words and examples end up simply being condemnatory criticism.

Perhaps we should just let people be and do what they desire to do. Experience ..particularly with a demanding cam like the D800 will be the best teacher of the unwise and naive.

I think you forget that these are just words on these pages. No one here is capable of preventing people being or doing what they want to do. It's just an exchange of opinions and advice to be listened to or otherwise. When the lynch mob actually turns up at your door is when to worry.

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Brian
Fine Art Print sales of the Isle of Skye at:
http://www.eyeofskye.co.uk/

faterikcartman Contributing Member • Posts: 553
Re: This is gonna upset some of you.....
3

I can't believe how many pages and arguments this thread engendered.  If that was the OP's point, then mission accomplished.

If it was to educate I suggest next time doing a forum search first.  The point that the D800 might be wasted on folks who web publish or print small has been made many times by myself and others in the weeks and months since the D800/e was released.  Roman, since whilst you protest you don't take this personally but appear to take it very personally I suppose I should make clear my view: I generally agree with the point of your thread and much of what you said in your posts.  However, I question the utility and necessity of the thread in the first place and, possibly, your approach in making your point.

But if stirring the pot was the objective might I request more blood and popcorn with the next installment?

Finally, even though it is small, I found parts of the first image out of focus and that I found distracting rather than providing depth or other intended effects vis-a-vie the second image.  Which is to say, on its own it probably would have been peachy, but compared to the second image it did not leave me thinking "this takes pictures that are just as good".  Though I agree, that at that size the camera is generally capable of closely comparable work.  Overall the images are beautiful, however, and it is truly a lovely scene.  I witnessed similar colours and scenes a week or so ago at the Butchart Gardens in Victoria.

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