Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

Started Nov 4, 2012 | Discussions
Petruska Veteran Member • Posts: 8,056
Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....
1

In case anyone is interested Cone brought out a cheap cost "dye" ink version of the Cone pigment compatible Epson K3 vivid magenta ink set.

The cost for Epson OEM ink is approximately $1 per mL, Cone pigment is 20 cents (15 cents  when on sale) per mL. The Cone dye ink is 8 cents per mL. Both Cone inks are resin mico-encapsulated for superb gloss.

I shoot weddings and it's nothing to have 200-300 proofs for the bride to review, I print 10 proofs per 8.5 x 11 sheet so that 20-30 sheets. The dye inks match the pigments almost identically and the proofs usually get tossed in the end. Thus the dye ink lowers the cost of prints substantially and represents what the final pigment prints will look like.

I print the Cone dye in my Epson R2880 and the Cone pigment in the R3000.

Bob P.

jtoolman
jtoolman Veteran Member • Posts: 6,472
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

I second what Bob has stated 100%

I was the first to buy and try these inks on both my R2400 R2880 and one of my PRO3800 printers which I have actually excusively set up for printing with these inks and shared some of my resulting prints with Bob.

The results are some of the best I've ever seem, specially when profiled.

The projected life span under glass is about 30 years, and I hope to live that much longer! So it is plenty of time for me.

On Epson Premium gloss and letting the printer control color, it is spot on.

On other papers it is reccomended that you profile them to this ink.

AusPic Regular Member • Posts: 331
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

Geez I HATE you two :-D............now I am going to have to go out and get another printer:-( just to make cheaper, cheap prints...........so as to 'p' off the wowsers that wont use 3rd party ink, cos its GOOD for Epson and keeps them in the business of making squillions. Who said philanthropy was only for the very RICH:-D

I have no beef with the folks that are a bit shy on trying out 3rd party for fear of damage, thats an OK reason not to switch, just as not wanting to mess around loading carts and all that stuff is a valid reason too..........in my opinion.

Thanks for the heads up fellas, I may just be forced to buy a 3000 ho hum! its a real bummer having spare cash to spend on another printer rather than A$99 per refill for my 3880, really gives me indigestion........(from all the belly laughing!!)

-- hide signature --

Andrew G

OP Petruska Veteran Member • Posts: 8,056
AusPic

We then need you to try new pigment OCP K3 VM inks which costs about $0.02 per mL, same price in AUS$, now we are approaching zero ink cost per print....

Bob P.

Apotheker Regular Member • Posts: 494
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

Petruska wrote:

In case anyone is interested Cone brought out a cheap cost "dye" ink version of the Cone pigment compatible Epson K3 vivid magenta ink set.

The cost for Epson OEM ink is approximately $1 per mL, Cone pigment is 20 cents (15 cents when on sale) per mL. The Cone dye ink is 8 cents per mL. Both Cone inks are resin mico-encapsulated for superb gloss.

I shoot weddings and it's nothing to have 200-300 proofs for the bride to review, I print 10 proofs per 8.5 x 11 sheet so that 20-30 sheets. The dye inks match the pigments almost identically and the proofs usually get tossed in the end. Thus the dye ink lowers the cost of prints substantially and represents what the final pigment prints will look like.

I print the Cone dye in my Epson R2880 and the Cone pigment in the R3000.

Bob P.

Hi Bob,

To my knowledge it is not possible to resin coat dye molecules, as resin molecules are much larger in size than dye molecules. Resin is basically a polymerisation reaction of many smaller molecules into a large molecular shield. For pigment particles this makes sens, as the these particles are gigantlcally larger compared to dye molecules. Could you explain this to me ?

-- hide signature --

Crazy about printing, profiling and refilling printer cartridges

Apotheker Regular Member • Posts: 494
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

I just read the website: very interesting concept indeed and the price is very good indeed.

-- hide signature --

Crazy about printing, profiling and refilling printer cartridges

JJ Winkel Senior Member • Posts: 1,387
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

Petruska wrote:

In case anyone is interested Cone brought out a cheap cost "dye" ink version of the Cone pigment compatible Epson K3 vivid magenta ink set.

Bob P.

Bob

If I am almost only printing glossy and switch to those new dye inks, how will any matt prints look like ?

I currently never switch to matt as I have a color laser for my non photo printing, but I do miss it occasionaly for nicer matt or luster prints
--
JJ.

jtoolman
jtoolman Veteran Member • Posts: 6,472
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

I can answer that! As I have a PRO3800 and a R2400 currently running on these K3 Dye inks.

The R2400 is printing using the Matte Black cart. As you may know the R2200 R2400 and R2880 use 9 colors but only have 8 cart positions so you physically swop the MK or PK carts when you are printing on Matte / Art or Gloss - Luster - Satin papers.

The PZRO 3800 is currently being used for other than matte papers and currently being profiled for many Gloss - Luster - Satin papers paper types. Every few months I will switch to either PK or MK to make sure I keep the "PIPES" flowing.

So far I have created R2400 profiles only for Staples Double Sided Matte and the results are very good. I am getting super results with great blacks, color saturation where needed and subleties where they exist in the images. I created a "Job" in Qimage with 12 very different images covering a wide gamut of image situations from Graphic vector art, landsacapes, people, flowers, water / ocean and when I viewed the Kirkland or Epson Premium Glossy print equivalents, they seem to be a very good match for color, saturation, contrast.

As you may have expereinced with some dye ink sets, you may get a good bright color with a good deep black ( D-Max ) but the minute you suitch to a matte paper, your colors mute and your blacks tend to not be as deep due to the fact that PK dye is just not "Black" enough for some matte papers, giving you the appearance of a duller less contrasty image.

This dye K3 set comes with a MK equivalent which as far as I have been able to discern is simply a very deep versin of the PK color. So it does a very good job at preserving the deep blacks that you would normally get in a glossy print but normally loose when switching to Matte.

Now the only thing that puzzles me is that this set claims to be compatible with both K3 non Vivid Magenta and K3 Vivid Magenta Epson printers. so if you are using it on the R2880 ( I am currently running OCP K3 VM inks  on it ) , PRO 3880 or R3000 as my friend Bob is doing, and it does an admirable job. I would categorize it as an outstanding job. BUT it also does an equally great job on NON VM K3 Printers like the R2400 and even though it does not say so, I would guess that it would also work on an R2200 as well.

Also for you R1900 / R2000 people. They also carry  dye inks for those two printers as well.

I will be placing a second order quite soon!

Joe

JJ Winkel Senior Member • Posts: 1,387
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

Thanks

I forgot to mention that my photo printer is a 3880.

I had a used R1800 and I loved it (but after two years it's head became unrecoverable), then got a used Canon 9000 dye and I loved it's glossy prints (but head died too), so I baught a used 3880, but I somehow miss the canon's glossyness ...... Now back to dye ?  Or maybe buy a new head for the Canon ( it's still sleeping somewhere in my attic) ?

I do not really care about light fastness, my prints are not intended for future generations

-- hide signature --

JJ.

jtoolman
jtoolman Veteran Member • Posts: 6,472
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

It will work beautifully on your PRO3880.

But are you running refillable carts on your PRO 3880?

JJ Winkel Senior Member • Posts: 1,387
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

jtoolman wrote:

It will work beautifully on your PRO3880.

But are you running refillable carts on your PRO 3880?

So far still on OEM carts, in an attempt to use as much of ALL of them I already baught 3 new carts, but I must stop it now as it is an on-going story and I do not print enough.

That said I do have a complete brand new IR I-Refill kit still in its shipping box since a full year now including its IRK4 ink set ....... all unopened, that ink must be bad by now

I really feel a bit ashamed as I got this kit free from IR .....  (Amanda I am so sorry)

The fact is I am also a bit afraid by those large protruding carts as with my low use, I wonder if the ink in there won't turn bad ? ( and also the space it takes ).

One reason I was very interested in your experiments with the smaller refillable carts (that I do not have yet).

A by the way question : If I stick with Cone's pigment inks, is it possible to mix their ink carts with the current OEM ones ? That would be a good way to phase them out, but will not do any good if ever I decide to go dye...

-- hide signature --

JJ.

jtoolman
jtoolman Veteran Member • Posts: 6,472
Re: Cone pigment versus Cone dye ink....

Bob Petruska can likely answer that better than me as I have no experience with their Pigment inks.

All I know it that the exceed just about every other in IQ and are so closely matched to OEM that it probably is possible.

Just one bit of info. In most, and probably all pigment ink sets, whether OEM or 3rd party, the Magenta pigment is the most dificult one to formulate the give a high level of gloss. Even my K3 OEM inks still show a tiny bit of gloss differential on glossy papers, Image Specialists and OCP's Magenta Pigment formulation prints practically matte. So any color hue that is using any Magenta will display gloss differential.

My only recourse to this problem was to set up one of my spare Epson 1400 printers with 6 carts filled with 3rd party gloss optimizer. I send all my glossy and luster prints suffering from this through this printer, by printing a borderless filled with 50% gray document with NO COLOR MANAGEMENT of the same size to lay down an even coat of GLOP. Results are the best I've ever seen.

Now about CONE Pigment K3 regular and V Magenta inks. THEY HAVE BETTER GLOSS CHARACTERISTICS THAN OEM!!!!! YES THEY ACTUALLY DO

Nuff said. Yes you pay more but,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Joe

PS would consider selling those IR carts?

OP Petruska Veteran Member • Posts: 8,056
Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...

in the printer and Jon Cone states this on his site, but with a 3880 using refillable carts and piggy-backing the OEM and reset chips I don't believe that you can mix OEM and Cone, or others, refillable cartridges.  I'm not an expert with this on the 3880 as I don't have one.

On the Cone pigment gloss, it is more glossy than the OEM, where some papers exhibit gloss differential using OEM ink, they don't when Cone is used.  Sometimes the Cone ink is actually more glossy than the glossy paper finish.  I have tested Cone inks using the Epson profiles and 3rd party paper profiles made for use with OEM ink with great results.  Cone does have a long list of custom printer profiles available for the 3880 using various papers and Cone ink.  Cone will warn you that Epson's ABW mode will not give the B&W peformance as well as the Epson OEM ink, but I really don't see much differences at all.  I also generate custom ICC profiles for all my papers and inks so ink variations disappear.

I also tested Ink Republic's K3 VM ink set and wasn't exactly impressed, the gloss was there but there was a strange magenta color.  I understand that new IR K3 ink chemistry was recently released and may be much better.  Image Specialists ink matched well to OEM colors but was more towards a matte finish, as was the new OCP K3 VM ink set.  I have never tried Inkjetcarts ink and there have been favorable reviews.  For me after two years of testing a lot of ink for both the Epson and Canon printers I'm staying with Cone pigment and dye inks until some issue forces me to change.

Bob P.

Vernon D Rainwater Forum Pro • Posts: 13,490
Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...

Petruska wrote:

in the printer and Jon Cone states this on his site, but with a 3880 using refillable carts and piggy-backing the OEM and reset chips I don't believe that you can mix OEM and Cone, or others, refillable cartridges. I'm not an expert with this on the 3880 as I don't have one.

Bob P.

Bob, I bought a set of the Cone 80 ml size re-fillable cartridges for my 3880. I have installed two of these (LLB and Yellow) by using the original OEM chip from the empty pulled OEM cartridges and the other cartridges are the original Epson OEM Cartridges. I use Inkjetcarts.com bulk inks for all my Epson printers (including the 3880) and (as mentioned in another post) the results are excellent and with no noticeable change (for better or for worse) and using the same Paper/Printer Profiles as used when using all OEM ink cartridges. I have printed around 40 photos ranging in size form 4 x 6 to 17 x 25 with this cartridge configuration. So far, all is working perfectly.....

My comments are correct, however; your comments may be relating to when using the Cone NON Pigment inks.  I use only Pigment inks and don't need to print many (Proofs, etc) to where it would be a ($$$) benefit for that purpose.

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

jtoolman
jtoolman Veteran Member • Posts: 6,472
Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...

Vernon,

How is the performance of the Inkjetfly VM and VLM? Specifically, how to red and magenta object look on glossy papers. Are they as glossy as the other colors?

With CONE pigment inks, there is not difference.

On a glossy print of a so called normal print, with even representation of colors, those the overall gloss appear even?

Thanks

Joe

Vernon D Rainwater Forum Pro • Posts: 13,490
Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...

jtoolman wrote:

Vernon,

How is the performance of the Inkjetfly VM and VLM? Specifically, how to red and magenta object look on glossy papers. Are they as glossy as the other colors?

With CONE pigment inks, there is not difference.

On a glossy print of a so called normal print, with even representation of colors, those the overall gloss appear even?

Thanks

Joe

Hello Joe,  I have been enjoying reading your helpful comments.

I am using Inkjetcarts inks (Ross Hardie) not Inkjetfly.  Also, only two of the re-loaded cartridges (LLB and Yellow) are currently in use.  All others are Epson OEM Cartridges.

Most of my Photo Printing (using the 3880) is using Matte Type Papers.  So far, after the two cartridge change; I haven't printed on Glossy or Luster type Photo paper or any that use the Photo Black ink.  Before I changed to use the two refillable cartridges, I printed several 8 x 10 test Photos on several of the Sample Red River Papers (plus several using Epson Papers with known test images) and as time permits I plan to print the same tests with the changed ink cartridge configuration.  Then, I will be able to compare the results using the different type papers.  I look forward to the comparisons.

I had a small accident that has me "slowed down" with my other "Honey Do" jobs --[Grin]....

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

jtoolman
jtoolman Veteran Member • Posts: 6,472
Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...

Sorry Vernon, my dislexia is kicking in. I thought I had read Inkjetfly.

I know their inks are also supposed to be quite good, but by their onw admition, their gloss is about "One Tick" down from OEM

I had bought a buch of "Empty" 3880 carts for their chips on Ebay, and to my delight, I reallized that they all contained about 10-13 ml of ink even when reading empty.

So after I also drained my original two sets of almost empty OEM carts, I have now accumulated about 4oz a piece of all OEM K3 colors. So I will be putting this ink to use on my R2400 and I also found on Ebay a pair of 4880 VM and VLM ( 120ml each for only $14 each ) which I will drain the ink from for my R2880. So I will be running OEM inks on both printers. I will also be experimenting with this OEM Magenta to replace IJC K3 Magenta to see if I can eliminate the gloss differential I am currently getting on reds, magentas and purples whan using IJC K3.

I love to research and experiment and I can profile these hybrids to some of my papers to see how they work. The goal is to achieve the highest quality ( that comes first ) at the most reasonable cost per ML.

Joe

OP Petruska Veteran Member • Posts: 8,056
Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Petruska wrote:

in the printer and Jon Cone states this on his site, but with a 3880 using refillable carts and piggy-backing the OEM and reset chips I don't believe that you can mix OEM and Cone, or others, refillable cartridges. I'm not an expert with this on the 3880 as I don't have one.

Bob P.

Bob, I bought a set of the Cone 80 ml size re-fillable cartridges for my 3880. I have installed two of these (LLB and Yellow) by using the original OEM chip from the empty pulled OEM cartridges and the other cartridges are the original Epson OEM Cartridges. I use Inkjetcarts.com bulk inks for all my Epson printers (including the 3880) and (as mentioned in another post) the results are excellent and with no noticeable change (for better or for worse) and using the same Paper/Printer Profiles as used when using all OEM ink cartridges. I have printed around 40 photos ranging in size form 4 x 6 to 17 x 25 with this cartridge configuration. So far, all is working perfectly.....

My comments are correct, however; your comments may be relating to when using the Cone NON Pigment inks. I use only Pigment inks and don't need to print many (Proofs, etc) to where it would be a ($$$) benefit for that purpose.

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Using your example, if you were to replace the colors other than LLB and Yellow (leaving them as OEM because they are full)  with refillable carts then the refillables with the replaced OEM chips won't work.  That's what I was trying to clarify.  You need the correct mix of OEM and refillable carts to work correctly.

My comments are the same for Cone Pigment or Dye inks...

Bob P.

OP Petruska Veteran Member • Posts: 8,056
I thought that IJC uses IS inks?

Right, wrong?

Bob P.

Vernon D Rainwater Forum Pro • Posts: 13,490
Re: Yes you can mix OEM and Cone ink...

Petruska wrote:

Vernon D Rainwater wrote:

Petruska wrote:

in the printer and Jon Cone states this on his site, but with a 3880 using refillable carts and piggy-backing the OEM and reset chips I don't believe that you can mix OEM and Cone, or others, refillable cartridges. I'm not an expert with this on the 3880 as I don't have one.

Bob P.

Bob, I bought a set of the Cone 80 ml size re-fillable cartridges for my 3880. I have installed two of these (LLB and Yellow) by using the original OEM chip from the empty pulled OEM cartridges and the other cartridges are the original Epson OEM Cartridges. I use Inkjetcarts.com bulk inks for all my Epson printers (including the 3880) and (as mentioned in another post) the results are excellent and with no noticeable change (for better or for worse) and using the same Paper/Printer Profiles as used when using all OEM ink cartridges. I have printed around 40 photos ranging in size form 4 x 6 to 17 x 25 with this cartridge configuration. So far, all is working perfectly.....

My comments are correct, however; your comments may be relating to when using the Cone NON Pigment inks. I use only Pigment inks and don't need to print many (Proofs, etc) to where it would be a ($$$) benefit for that purpose.

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Using your example, if you were to replace the colors other than LLB and Yellow (leaving them as OEM because they are full) with refillable carts then the refillables with the replaced OEM chips won't work. That's what I was trying to clarify. You need the correct mix of OEM and refillable carts to work correctly.

My comments are the same for Cone Pigment or Dye inks...

Bob P.

Edited to add:

This Dpreview forum has completely dropped all the text message that was prepared with this post.  Sometimes, I wonder what Fiasco in the Forums will be next.  I wish I had first prepared the text message using one of my Editing software then copy/paste to the forum.  However, why should that be necessary if some consistency and accuracy was present in maintaining the forums.

Certainly, My comments does not re-create the text message......

-- hide signature --

Vernon...

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads