Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

Started Oct 14, 2012 | Discussions
PeterZheng Regular Member • Posts: 315
Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap
1

Segment,

In film era, Nikon F80s was once a classical example. The F80s was a plastic mirror box framework built in, and a lightly weight body, so condition adversely to lesser vibrations. However, the shutter bounce and mirror slap the F80s was slightly lower than for elder brother F100. Nikon F100 was an alloy metallic box framework built in, and very lower vibrations, even below the half of the F90 vibrational acceleration value. (Nikon F90 was also an alloy metallic box framework built in).
Therein the Key, Nikon F80s was merely 2.5 fps, very lower mirror slap and the slower running of shutter blades, Secondly, the F80 shutter blades did not take the alloyed materials, but the mass of lighter synthetic materials. Thereby the F80 won so lower vibrations.

In currently, camera manufacturers are some duties ought to reinforce user-optional function onto a camera, wherein an optional low shutter bounce and mirror slap (3 fps/100ms lag), another optional fast fps and shutter lag (5 fps/60ms lag), to better suit dissimilar purposes. Maybe the mirror flipping might easily get a resolvent to the two speeds, but the shutter run with two speeds would be some difficulties.
We expect a camera can really be selected a mode with lower shutter bounce and mirror slap, whereas not sounds like more quiet, but is actually nothing lower vibrations helpful.

Also, we go back to again pay attention to the shutter with built-in lens. (a ring blades shutter, none a recoil).

The next writing is an originally comment on Pentax camera,  while also related to Nikon.  There are some common problems.

Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap
Another very nausea thing with Pentax K7, therein the shutter bounce blur degree is extremely graver of a worsening than k20d/k10d, even though you taken a MLU mode is also likewise worse, (MLU, mirror locked up, 2s delay). With third party the quantificational measured result to look at the k7 body, not only mirror slap blur and SR blur maybe you already heard, further, you can see that the k7 shutter bounce blur gotten a fearful worsening. (This type of image-blurring come from the shutter's recoil, the mirror slap blur is another type. The both of them are with problematic designs. ).

This is really too bad, looks like an inexperienced intern's design, and is also no enough technical equipment to test and measure to find problem. This makes us go back film era to look at eos1000 and eos888, with worse mirror slap blur and worse shutter bounce blur .However, nowadays is already 20 years later, and that the k7 is Pentax a topmost model, and not entry model.

Even though to go back 1995 - 1997, Pentax Z1p and MZ-3 never got like so worse, and the Z1p was a lower vibratory-blur than Nikon f90. Pentax MZ-5n was also a lower the mirror slap blur and the shutter bounce blur degree close to Nikon F80, (Nikon had a notably improvement on the camera vibrations late 1990s). However nowadays, Pentax did not suitably complete the least basal things, obviously, a patient as enterprise management, moreover Pentax camera division's technical management syatem is already a severe patient.

The shutter bounce blur degree at Pentax k5 gets a little improving, but is still not as near as the k20d/k10d. LumoLabs told us as follows, (Falk Lumo is Pentax camera a famed lover, from a teenager in 1977 and with a Pentax MX. He is yet no categorical to criticize Pentax, so take notice this point ),
"the K-7 has significantly more total shutter blur, about an increase from about 1.45 pixels to 2.9 pixels, a difference of 1.45 px with slightly larger 5.0 µm pixels". (the k-7 the worst blur up to 4 px, far larger than 5.0 µm).
"The K20D has around 0.2 pixels only, But blur widths don't add linearly. (Part of the K20D shutter blur is masked by the anti-alias (AA) filter). So, one way to put the result is that the K-5 is half way between the K20D and the K-7. All three cameras have a floating sensor shake reduction mechanism". (SR turned off in measuring)
"(k5) The absolute magnitude of the effect sits halfway in between a K20D which has almost no measurable effect and a K-7 which exhibits an effect large enough to make some people notice in their work."
"The matter may now have reached a satisfactory state with the K-5. But there remains work to be done for Pentax to fully understand and eliminate any unnecessary effects which compromise image sharpness." (LumoLabs/Dec 2010)

In March 2009, Japanese PIE 2009, The Nishi Lab and Tani Electronics introduced and demonstrated a measurement tool system, they developed a method to accurately measure the image-blurring effect of camera. Their system can accurately measure the blur offset of the every one pixel.

Further, the Nishi Lab and Tani Electronics demonstrated the measured result showing out a camera got a bad design that besides the mirror slap blur, even though you taken the mirror locked up mode is also some the image-blurring effects, which latter related the shutter bounce blur.

"There is no point in enhancing resolution unless we take some measures to reduce the vibration of a camera unit as a whole including a tripod," said Kazuki Nishi of UEC. (Nikkeibp/Mar 2009)
They also found once the vibrations in a camera significantly worsens, even if a 1.5 kg tripod used but the problem is still there.

Pentax did not care for that above?

Most of the enthusiasts had no idea how serious the problem, in fact, the image blurring of the camera vibration could make your 20 MP camera equivalent to a 5 MP camera, and the image sharpness significantly worsened, worse imaging than for a 5 MP camera.

However, manufacturer did not talk thier own problem, some so-called the known websites are always no saying, and their "testing" have always reporting good and good, good to good. With the flash lighting source to shoot the resolution chart that makes you cannot know the difference. Even if they have used other lighting source, but the resolution chart merely read horizontal direction, the real worse vertical direction imaging-blurring was not reflected.

People hard to see the truth.

The mirror slap blur is main harmful to a shutter speed below the 1/50s, whereas the shutter bounce blur is harmfully all the whole open shutter of speeds, the affected speed range with Xsync and slower.
The shutter bounce blur has long been existing in the focal plane mechanical shutter system, ( along linear movement recoil), moreover, a mirrorless camera is likewise cases, if they got a bad design, except the shutter with built-in lens. (a ring blades shutter, none recoil).

You can use a B&K accelerometer equipment to measure a relevant vibration value from a slap of mirror flipping up, (non flipping down that moment), likewise measure on the shutter bounce vibration.
Using the 2s delay-mode (camera self-loading mirror lockup) can respectively measure to the vibration values from the mirror flipping up and the shutter bounce.
(a detailed measurement needs vertical/Y-axis and horizontal/X-axis, that is top, bottom and sides at a camera body. But nowadays a camera is usually vertical motion in shutter or mirror, thereby the vertical direction image-blurring to be easier discoverable).

With using a digital storage oscillograph then you can also observe the vibrational amplitude in waveform of a damping process. Here is not only about the vibrational amplitude, and controlling the vibrational duration is same important problem, that the vibrational duration length must be little, and the damping must be enough.

This point, an alloy (metallic) mirror box is always a better built-in than a plastic mirror box.

About the non-quantificational testing method to obtain a usefully comparing between cameras, for our camera lovers oneself.
a B&K accelerometer system is overly expensive, it planned goal on a corporation, not personal. Whereas, a generic digital storage oscillograph is not so expensive (200 - 500 USD, non famous brands), a piezoelectric acceleration transducer (sensor) module is around 20 - 50 USD, a low pass amplifier module (10 - 20 USD), a simple remote control device to synchronously trigger on oscillograph and camera, then you can observe the vibrational amplitude and waveform of a damping process, and compare in between cameras.

This low pass amplifier module can be replaced with an older Hi-Fi phono amplifier, a bandwidth -3dB/10Hz, 5-10 mV input and 1 Volt output.
The testing camera body must be putting onto an extra-soft of cushion, like a half full of a air pillow.

Worse Shutter bounce & Mirror slap related Faster FPS & Shutter lag
Someone who blindly cheered the faster fps and shutter lag, maybe you could thereby get in worse shutter bounce and mirror slap. The faster mirror flipping and shutter travel easier meant higher accelerated motion, in same costs and built framework, body weight. Are you a sports cameraman?

Some topmost cameras more focused for pressmen cameramen, the heavy camera body and expensive price, with faster fps and shutter lag but uncertain to get the shutter bounce and mirror slap the lowest.

For the goal non-pressmen's cameras, should never firstly consider the faster fps and shutter lag. Do a choice, the imaging quality is first, that is firstly the lesser shutter bounce and mirror slap.

In film era, Nikon F80s was once a classical example. The F80s was a plastic mirror box framework built in, and a lightly weight body, so condition adversely to lesser vibrations. However, the shutter bounce and mirror slap the F80s was slightly lower than for elder brother F100. Nikon F100 was an alloy metallic box framework built in, and very lower vibrations, even below the half of the F90 vibrational acceleration value. (Nikon F90 was also an alloy metallic box framework built in).
Therein the Key, Nikon F80s was merely 2.5 fps, very lower mirror slap and the slower running of shutter blades, Secondly, the F80 shutter blades did not take the alloyed materials, but the mass of lighter synthetic materials. Thereby the F80 won so lower vibrations.

In currently, camera manufacturers are some duties ought to reinforce user-optional function onto a camera, wherein an optional low shutter bounce and mirror slap (3 fps/100ms lag), another optional fast fps and shutter lag (5 fps/60ms lag), to better suit dissimilar purposes. Maybe the mirror flipping might easily get a resolvent to the two speeds, but the shutter run with two speeds would be some difficulties.
We expect a camera can really be selected a mode with lower shutter bounce and mirror slap, whereas not sounds like more quiet, but is actually nothing lower vibrations helpful.

*************************************************

Also, you can also read here,

www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

*************************************************

a measurement of the motion of a body equal to the product of its mass and velocity.

Therefore, when you divide by the mass to get the acceleration, the response of different bodies is inverse to the mass.

Pentax K20D Pentax K-5 Pentax K-7
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
Zardoz
Zardoz Senior Member • Posts: 1,249
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap
5

Cam Traviss Senior Member • Posts: 1,171
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

Wow. I wouldn't even know where to begin with this one.

salamander1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,420
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

friend, i would very respectfully like to point your attention toward an almost silent and shake free camera, the mighty 5D3. it has a silent shutter mode, which is so mechanically precise and smooth, that you loose any sense of movement and vibration inside the camera when you shoot.  all you feel is just one beautifully modulated and graceful whisper.

showmetheprime
showmetheprime Regular Member • Posts: 193
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap
1

salamander1 wrote:

friend, i would very respectfully like to point your attention toward an almost silent and shake free camera, the mighty 5D3. it has a silent shutter mode, which is so mechanically precise and smooth, that you loose any sense of movement and vibration inside the camera when you shoot.  all you feel is just one beautifully modulated and graceful whisper.

Wow, what a stupid post.  A shake free camera? lol.  Camera shake is a factor of the photographer, not of the resolution or the camera you dork.

salamander1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,420
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap
1

showmetheprime wrote:

salamander1 wrote:

friend, i would very respectfully like to point your attention toward an almost silent and shake free camera, the mighty 5D3. it has a silent shutter mode, which is so mechanically precise and smooth, that you loose any sense of movement and vibration inside the camera when you shoot.  all you feel is just one beautifully modulated and graceful whisper.

Wow, what a stupid post.  A shake free camera? lol.  Camera shake is a factor of the photographer, not of the resolution or the camera you dork.

dork? obviously, you have never been anywhere near a 5D3, friend. i forgive you.

showmetheprime
showmetheprime Regular Member • Posts: 193
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap
1

salamander1 wrote:

showmetheprime wrote:

salamander1 wrote:

friend, i would very respectfully like to point your attention toward an almost silent and shake free camera, the mighty 5D3. it has a silent shutter mode, which is so mechanically precise and smooth, that you loose any sense of movement and vibration inside the camera when you shoot.  all you feel is just one beautifully modulated and graceful whisper.

Wow, what a stupid post.  A shake free camera? lol.  Camera shake is a factor of the photographer, not of the resolution or the camera you dork.

dork? obviously, you have never been anywhere near a 5D3, friend. i forgive you.

Unfortunately you're very much wrong.  I merely selected the D800 over it when I dumped my poorly performing 5DII and the rest of my Canon gear in March.  I had the 5DIII on loan for a week - it really didn't have any redeeming features at all over the D800 for me.  Canon are very much behind in the execution of their products these days, it's pitiful really.  Canon seem incapable of producing a sensor which can cover more than 20MP with real colour depth and DR, it's obvious that there will be no competition to the D800 for years from Canon.  Any rumours of a contender are written by fanboys with wishful thinking.

OP PeterZheng Regular Member • Posts: 315
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap
1

I have to say that this post does not suit camera kids, the reader ought to have basic technical knowledge related on camera.

Some kids more like McDonald, nowadays.

OP PeterZheng Regular Member • Posts: 315
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

We expect a camera can really be selected a mode with lower shutter bounce and mirror slap, whereas not sounds like more quiet, but is actually nothing lower vibrations helpful.

camera manufacturers are some duties ought to reinforce user-optional function onto a camera, wherein an optional low shutter bounce and mirror slap (3 fps/100ms lag), another optional fast fps and shutter lag (5 fps/60ms lag), to better suit dissimilar purposes.

gl2k
gl2k Veteran Member • Posts: 3,232
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap
2

If modern DSLRs are as as bad as you describe them how come that experienced pro photogs make tack sharp images with them ? I've seen pros shooting Hasselblads free hands and getting sharp images.

I think you totally exaggerate the "problem". If the problem were as severe as you say I bet some clever guys at Nikon/Canon already had solved it.

Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

It is a bit techie talk wise but I have some observations here using various makers

Firstly Pentax with the K-7 and def K-x models has some issues where the mirror action interfered with the SR mechanism, I noted this most clearly on the K-x in a range of 1/100 down to 1/50 second around that point. It meant your SR was effectively not useful! I am sure this was an oversight from Pentax (hardly shocking they've had many issues over the years)

I own a few Km5d's with a more effective AS mechanism and I noted in thousands of exposures only a few cases where the mirror might have caused a problem with the AS, but really only a very few examples, same for Sony.

The mirror slap sound on the Km5d is quite loud, but it was suggested the noise was to absorb vibrations into the body. Minolta had a film 5 Dynax model which was "claimed" to have a counter balanced mirror mechanism reducing the effects of mirror slap, I have a few of these bodies myself.

Some makers are using a foam/rubber type material on the outer edge of the focus screen to I assume absorb mirror slap. Some are not using anything. So it's open to debate here.

On the other hand it's been suggested that no mirror cameras like the OM-D have a shutter action that can induce vibration.

I think it's something we've come to live with and learn to work around with mirror lock up, and it's usually only a potential problem for macro/longer focal lengths in a fairly specific shutter speed. It is good to see Nikon's MUP mode on some models allowing you to completely wipe out any problems with an extended period of the mirror being up. Canon need to get onto this one fast!

OP PeterZheng Regular Member • Posts: 315
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

Hello,

you can download the PDF file, but you must be a registered member, the file is not free. (Japanese)
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/HONSHI/20090427/169454/
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/article/NEWS/20090410/168625/

In 2009 during market, there are merely the three full frame DSLR models , it came from three brands.

this is Chinese translated copy, a simply introduction, it including some charts and explanation.
http://china.nikkeibp.com.cn/news/digi/45608-20090413.html

Unluckily, English translated copy was cut down the charts and explanation. Therefore, most of the western camera lovers did not get read the more details. And English translated copy has several incorrect words, they writen English camera "shake" that is actually "vibration", camera's internal vibration, the shutter bounce or mirror slap to activate up the forced damped oscillation (vibration).
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20090413/168663/
http://forum.fourthirdsphoto.com/f2/effect-camera-vibration-resolution-48296.html

People must notice the problems, before 2017, the 35mm camera will come with a 100 MP sensor, and is no longer 36MP. Well then, the same vibration value would be much more harm to imaging quality.

"One sensor manufactory is being developing a 100 MP 35mm sensor", said a camera maker. (It is quite likely that is Sony sensor manufactory).

not only the mirror slap, looks the shutter bounce is more trouble, ----- the the latter is usually more harmful, and the mirror lockup mode can not avoid problem. Moreover, a mirrorless camera is likewise cases.
Someone who blindly cheered the faster fps and shutter lag, maybe you could thereby get in worse shutter bounce and mirror slap.

Also, you can also read here, SR turned off/disabled, the mirror locked up. Well then, the K7/K5 vibration blur came from where? Also, K20d is lesser vibration, it is also including SR function, (SR disabled, in measuring).
www.falklumo.com/lumolabs/articles/k5shutter/index.html

RPulley Senior Member • Posts: 1,175
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

It is a bit techie talk wise but I have some observations here using various makers

Firstly Pentax with the K-7 and def K-x models has some issues where the mirror action interfered with the SR mechanism, I noted this most clearly on the K-x in a range of 1/100 down to 1/50 second around that point. It meant your SR was effectively not useful! I am sure this was an oversight from Pentax (hardly shocking they've had many issues over the years)

I think it's something we've come to live with and learn to work around with mirror lock up, and it's usually only a potential problem for macro/longer focal lengths in a fairly specific shutter speed. It is good to see Nikon's MUP mode on some models allowing you to completely wipe out any problems with an extended period of the mirror being up. Canon need to get onto this one fast!

Apparently Nikon should get moving as well:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3031067

You might want to check that D7000 for mirror slap blur, Barry, as you cannot count on being able to lock the mirror up for 10 seconds when shooting in many situations, which I am sure you know.

I am surprised you would be satisfied with such a solution in any event as it is only useful when on a tripod. You normally rail against such suggested work-arounds for obvious design issues.

Ray

J Mankila
J Mankila Veteran Member • Posts: 4,234
The OP was quite fuzzy, I must admit...
1

PeterZheng wrote:

I have to say that this post does not suit camera kids, the reader ought to have basic technical knowledge related on camera.

Some kids more like McDonald, nowadays.

I'm sorry, but for me the language was very fuzzy in the OP. I could not read it through. It is an interesting topic, certainly, but I didn't understand what you were saying.

Again, I'm sorry I can't be of any help.

-- hide signature --

regards
Janne Mankila, Finland

Robin Casady Forum Pro • Posts: 12,898
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

You can get a visual indication of mirror and shutter induced camera movement with a laser pointer. You need one that you can turn on and will stay one (you don't have to keep pressing the button). Some LED flashlights have laser pointers built in.

Attach the laser to the camera (tape will do) so that it points to where the camera is aimed. Mount the camera on your tripod to test that setup. Set the camera on a beanbag to see how it would affect hand-held shooting. Set up a target of graph paper about 30 ft. from the camera. Turn on the laser and make sure it hits somewhere in the middle of the graph paper. Watch it with binoculars while you use a remote to fire the camera. Not how much the laser dot moves. Turn on MLU and try again.

For those interested in historical cases, I found that the shutter alone (MLU) on an Olympus OM-1 caused more vibration than the mirror and shutter of a Nikon F.

If you want massive mirror slap, try the Pentax 67.

-- hide signature --
MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 15,052
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

Robin wrote:

Attach the laser to the camera (tape will do) so that it points to where the camera is aimed. Mount the camera on your tripod to test that setup. Set the camera on a beanbag to see how it would affect hand-held shooting. Set up a target of graph paper about 30 ft. from the camera. Turn on the laser and make sure it hits somewhere in the middle of the graph paper. Watch it with binoculars while you use a remote to fire the camera. Not how much the laser dot moves. Turn on MLU and try again.

A slightly different version of this set-up is to set the laser pointer on say a table or a tripod etc. (something that does not move)  pointing towards the target. Then take pictures. The laser dot will seem to move on the target (in reality it is fixed and the camera moves). A laser pointer works well because of its intensity: it's very easy to capture at least indoors under incandescent light.

The advantage of this modified technique is that it's easy to quantify the motion (have a graduation on the target). Another advantage is that nothing gets recorded after the shutter closes. Hence by taking several pictures at different shutter speeds one can get an idea of how long it takes for the vibrations to dampen (also the recorded red dot gets brighter as the vibration speed decreases), and how much dampened they are after xxx tenths of a second.

-- hide signature --

Thierry

 TOF guy's gear list:TOF guy's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 12-24mm f/4G ED-IF Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +6 more
Glen78 Senior Member • Posts: 1,411
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

That was quite a long post but option d10 in my D600 menu allows me to delay the time from mirror up until the photo is taken by up to 3 seconds so in critical situations it is a non-issue. In fact, I do not need a remote for D600 when tripod mounted.

 Glen78's gear list:Glen78's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D5500 Nikon D850 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED +10 more
garyhgaryh Contributing Member • Posts: 551
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

Glen78 wrote:

That was quite a long post but option d10 in my D600 menu allows me to delay the time from mirror up until the photo is taken by up to 3 seconds so in critical situations it is a non-issue. In fact, I do not need a remote for D600 when tripod mounted.

Can this be done with a d800? I would check my d800e, but I sent it in so it's no longer in my

possession.

Gary

Lifer
Lifer Senior Member • Posts: 1,810
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

Option d4, Exposure Delay Mode for the D800.

-- hide signature --

Richard R. Price

 Lifer's gear list:Lifer's gear list
Nikon D750 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G +4 more
Robin Casady Forum Pro • Posts: 12,898
Re: Image-blurring in Shutter bounce & Mirror slap

TOF guy wrote:

Robin wrote:

Attach the laser to the camera (tape will do) so that it points to where the camera is aimed...

A slightly different version of this set-up is to set the laser pointer on say a table or a tripod etc. (something that does not move)  pointing towards the target. Then take pictures. The laser dot will seem to move on the target (in reality it is fixed and the camera moves). A laser pointer works well because of its intensity: it's very easy to capture at least indoors under incandescent light.

I'm not following what you are saying. Sounds like you put the laser on a table, point it at a target, and then take pictures of the target. In this scenario, the laser would not move in relation to the target unless there was an earthquake.

-- hide signature --
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads