The verdict is in: EOS-M is terribly SLOW.

Started Oct 3, 2012 | Discussions
pixelmess Forum Member • Posts: 66
The verdict is in: EOS-M is terribly SLOW.
10

The EOS-M's auto focus speed is 2 years TOO LATE.

" Then, there are those that nearly drive us to tears, instantly tarnishing our opinion of otherwise capable models. We were devastated to see that the EOS M's focusing performance falls just shy of that latter grouping -- the cameras that just plain stink at bringing a subject into focus quickly."

"...but the dismal focusing performance means SLRs will probably be far more appealing to these users."

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/03/canon-eos-m-review/

Sure it's just one review from a non-photography-specific site, but the long-suspicion of many (based on the youtube marketing hype) is now verified. This is certainly just a BEGINNING of many other reviews regarding its sluggish performance.

What a mess.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,853
Re: The verdict is in: EOS-M is terribly SLOW.
3

pixelmess wrote:

The EOS-M's auto focus speed is 2 years TOO LATE.

" Then, there are those that nearly drive us to tears, instantly tarnishing our opinion of otherwise capable models. We were devastated to see that the EOS M's focusing performance falls just shy of that latter grouping -- the cameras that just plain stink at bringing a subject into focus quickly."

"...but the dismal focusing performance means SLRs will probably be far more appealing to these users."

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/03/canon-eos-m-review/

Sure it's just one review from a non-photography-specific site, but the long-suspicion of many (based on the youtube marketing hype) is now verified. This is certainly just a BEGINNING of many other reviews regarding its sluggish performance.

What a mess.

I thought about posting this article but thought it was kind of pointless....I guess I should have just so there could be a somewhat objective start to an inevitable discussion.

Your prognostications aside, Engadget really is for gadget junkies and not photographers, but they still note the exceptional image quality. Others have commented on the usefulness of the user interface that the Engadget reviewer didn't care for. I didn't notice any mention of center focus speed vs. off center.

The mess is going to be the trash talk in these forums starting up again. I hope you haven't set the tone of this particular discussion, but since the only discussion that will ignite from this review will stem from the same subject matter as your post I don't see it going any other way. The first words out of your (virtual) mouth were an indictment of a camera given a rather superficial review by a site made up of tech geeks. Why not get a real, well-rounded view from a photographer's site? Two years too late for what? And I love the second quote paraphrased AND taken completely out of context.

The mess begineth here and you got it off to a great start. Just for the record I'm all set for cameras, so I won't be buying an EOS-M anyway. I'd still like to be able to have a discussion with people who are reasonable rather than hotheaded for whatever reason.

Tapper123
Tapper123 Senior Member • Posts: 1,910
EOS-M is a puzzling camera...
5

This camera seems like a very weak entry from Canon. There are much better mirrorless APS-C cameras from other brands. I can't understand why anyone would choose the EOS-M aside from brand loyalty (which is irrational).

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OP pixelmess Forum Member • Posts: 66
It's all show but no go.
3

Canon had to show a mirrorless ILC to prove the world that they're also capable of releasing such a format.  But at the same time, the world also discovered that:

1)  Canon is incapable (at this time) of releasing a format that can compete with other mirrorless ILC, in terms of autofocus performance.

2)  Lag in auto focus speed, when paired with its own m-mount lens, also means SLOWER AUTOFOCUS PERFORMANCE when paired with EF/S lenses (when using an adapter).

OR

3)  Canon engineers are fully capable & have the tech to go neck-a-neck w/ the NEX & m43 formats, but the monkey suits at the top of the Canon pyramid deliberately released this SLOW camera,  to keep DSLR sales on top.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,853
The difference...
3

Those ILC offerings are from companies that rely strictly on ILC sales and have lousy DSLR offerings.  Canon has a full line of EF lenses available and a very well developed line of EF-S lenses.  Other companies has little to nothing invested in larger lenses when the started on smaller ILC lenses.

Nikon's ILC attempt was pathetic and went for size and speed, once again showing their priorities that overshadow image quality.  At least Canon produced a camera that put image quality first.  Buying an ILC requires certain compromises just as a DSLR does.  Canon is much more invested in DSLR's and they decided to put an ILC out there that will produce great images but they're not ready to share the spotlight with their extremely capable DSLR's.

I'll see what the 7DMkII looks like, but chances are I'll wait for a MkIII or maybe a 5DMkIV.  ILC's have compromises I don't care to make.  The G1 X fits my requirements for a small camera.

GaryJP
GaryJP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,604
Re: The verdict is in: EOS-M is terribly SLOW.
3

"pixelmess has not uploaded any photos to their gallery yet."

As ever.

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24IS Senior Member • Posts: 1,484
Re: The difference...
1

Where's the flash shoe?

I plan to buy an EOS M sometime soon, with the 22mm lens and the adapter kit.  I like the fact that no electronic flash is built into the camera body, as the flash system will shorten the useful life of a camera, eventually, as the photoflash capacitor ages, and leaks more current (whether you use the flash or not).

I inherited a large collection of EOS glass that I would like to get some use out of.  I have the EOS Rebel basic camera, which I bought to get some use out of the inherited glass, but I never liked the camera.  The pentaprism view didn't cover the image frame well, and I need to see the whole frame.  I also found that the pentaprism focus wasn't very useful, as the area of focus is larger than the actual depth of field in the image.

I also noticed that when the autofocus wasn't able to lock on to something in the image frame, that I couldn't take a picture without first switching off the autofocus.  this seemed more trouble than it was worth, so I never used the camera.

Slow autofocus doesn't trouble me much, and the absence of a pentaprism sounds good to me.

What I'm really hoping for is a short shutter lag.  I have a Sony NEX F3, and the shutter lag is just a bit longer than I am comfortable with.  Good copy stand camera...

Maybe Canon will bring out a NEW NEW F1.  Now, there's a camera I would buy in a cold minute.

justmeMN Veteran Member • Posts: 9,895
Engadget misimpression
1

Engadget seems to be under the misimpression that the EOS M was designed as a DSLR replacement for professional photographers. It wasn't designed for either.

Of course the EOS M doesn't focus as fast as a DSLR. The Sony NEX doesn't either.

(The review mentions two Sony NEX models "if fast focusing doesn't top your list of priorities".)

In any event, I look forward to the 2013 version of the EOS M, which should feature improved focusing speed.

Marco Nero
Marco Nero Veteran Member • Posts: 7,050
The EOS-M Quandary...
2

I don't know how important the reviewer's opinions are on the matter just yet.  He might be absolutely right but he's also from a website that routinely "downs" a product simply because "everyone else makes their product perform 0.5 seconds faster".

If he's right (and early tests with prototype EOS-M cameras were less than stellar) then the camera will generate so much negative publicity that Canon executives will hang their heads in shame with several being forced to either walk the plank or resign.  They have a lot riding on the EOS-M camera.  I don't doubt that they'll be releasing that full-dialed Pro-Model said to be under the counter but they'll need to impress the public with the EOS-M first.

Personally, after so many years waiting for Canon to release (or indeed announce) a mirrorless compact, I thought it was disappointing to see that they did so by releasing a "touch screen" version.  I am involved in the production of a completely non-related consumer based electronic device and we've recently made a transition from an Analogue device (with physical dials and switches) to a Digital version which employs no dials or switches at all... just an LCD display with pressure sensitive buttons in a single, removable pad which has a motherboard beneath it.  Why?  Because it's far cheaper to make, has less moving parts, is cheaper to repair and has less repair requirements. So Canon are doing the same and they're going to be raking in a lot of money when this new camera goes mainstream because it's overpriced  for what it is and for what it costs to manufacture.  Their shareholders should be thrilled.

Is it going to be worth it?  Yes.  Because it's going to offer excellent image quality with a very accurate auto focus.  The only downside is the touchscreen and the slightly slower than desirable Autofocus speed.  If this means half a second slower than the competition, you'll hear nothing but endless complaints about it.  The pictures I have seen from this camera using the standard M-lenses so far are OUTSTANDING.  But the benefit of the EOS-M is that it is a rudimentary camera... designed simply to handle the existing lenses from the Canon series and be used as a Backup camera ... or to be used as a stand-alone camera for those not wanting to invest in a DSLR.

DSLRs are dinosaurs in the modern world.  They are used, arguably, simply because they give professional results.  They are the results of many generations of refined design and they are the portable alternative to medium frame cameras (which is why DSLRs were invented in the first place).  If you want the speed of a DSLR, buy a DSLR.  If the EOS-M is "dog slow", then Canon will suffer greatly as a result.  One website said "The camera will also feature a touch screen and hybrid AF just like the Nikon V1 which should make this a speed demon in the AF arena" in reference to the EOS-M.

Did Canon screw up? Or was the OP's reviewer simply over reacting to a typical or average AF ?  Does the 'M' in EOS-M stand for "Molasses"?

Sure, there's plenty of mirror-less alternatives on the market.  But how many can I stick my L-lenses on?

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,191
Re: The EOS-M Quandary...
1

Marco Nero wrote:

Sure, there's plenty of mirror-less alternatives on the market.  But how many can I stick my L-lenses on?

From what I can see, that's the only unique thing the EOS-M has going for it.   If you don't have any existing Canon glass then I really don't see why you'd want one.

The problem is, of course, that most people with Canon lenses are really interested in a somewhat more capable camera.   For some reason Canon seems to think this is a camera that's primarily of interest to P&S upgraders, but if you're a P&S upgrader what reason would you have to choose this over competing mirrorless cameras that are part of a more mature system?

Rockchan Contributing Member • Posts: 868
Not really misimpression
1

According to many people in this forum, one of the main benefit of EOS M is that it can use the lens of Canon DSLR.  When we try to think what kind of people have lots of Canon lenses in such situation, they are professional photographers. Professional photographers may not be Canon's only target but at least some of the people here believe they are.

Sony new NEX focus not slow and 5R and 6 can be even faster.  Moreover, for mirrorless camera we can consider PEN, which was reviewed have focus speed as fast as some top DSLR.  The review does not mention either 5R or 6.  The two NEX models mentioned in the review are old model and are much cheaper than EOS M.

justmeMN wrote:

Engadget seems to be under the misimpression that the EOS M was designed as a DSLR replacement for professional photographers. It wasn't designed for either.

Of course the EOS M doesn't focus as fast as a DSLR. The Sony NEX doesn't either.

(The review mentions two Sony NEX models "if fast focusing doesn't top your list of priorities".)

In any event, I look forward to the 2013 version of the EOS M, which should feature improved focusing speed.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,853
Re: The EOS-M Quandary...
1

Dinosaurs ruled the Earth for millions of years for a reason, and it took a meteor striking the Earth to make way for us lowly, intelligent mammals.  Sometimes established technology and brute force is actually better than the latest and greatest gadget that is still forced to hide from the big boys because it can't hold its own yet.  The CD is 30 years old as of a few days ago.  How much time did it take for the infrastructure to mature to a point where the CD started losing ground?  If you want a hard copy to play almost anywhere do you carry a thumb drive or a CD?  More to the point, if you want the best frequency response you still go buy vinyl.....ain't technology funny.

There's room for dinosaurs and furry little mammals at the moment.  Once they make the non-dinosaurs worth using maybe the prehistoric giants will have something to worry about.

Marco Nero
Marco Nero Veteran Member • Posts: 7,050
Re: The EOS-M Quandary...
2

Sean Nelson wrote:

Marco Nero wrote:

Sure, there's plenty of mirror-less alternatives on the market.  But how many can I stick my L-lenses on?

From what I can see, that's the only unique thing the EOS-M has going for it.   If you don't have any existing Canon glass then I really don't see why you'd want one.

That said, the 18-55 (?) Image Stabilized M-series lens seems to take some VERY nice pictures that rival even the best cameras using top lenses.  Perhaps it is simply due to skilled experience and testing by the Canon photographers?

The problem is, of course, that most people with Canon lenses are really interested in a somewhat more capable camera.   For some reason Canon seems to think this is a camera that's primarily of interest to P&S upgraders, but if you're a P&S upgrader what reason would you have to choose this over competing mirrorless cameras that are part of a more mature system?

People who buy the really specialized lenses like the Fisheye lenses or the Primes like the 50mm f1.2 lens with its razor-type DOF or even the 100mm L Macro will find this new camera will offer tremendous specialized use.  Especially if you follow the age old photography moral that everything should be about the glass and the image quality and that the body should simply be treated as a film container and nothing more. (translate that to 'digital' for today's market).  Even as a backup body for those doing important trips, the EOS-M has a very useful shelf life simply as a backup body.

I forgot to mention... the EOS-M is exclusively marketed towards women in Japan.  In fact it's known there as the Ladies Camera.  Perhaps that explains a few things?  I'll wager that they won't poison the water well in the West by calling it a Ladies Camera.

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Sean Nelson
Sean Nelson Forum Pro • Posts: 14,191
Re: The EOS-M Quandary...
6

Marco Nero wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

Marco Nero wrote:

Sure, there's plenty of mirror-less alternatives on the market.  But how many can I stick my L-lenses on?

From what I can see, that's the only unique thing the EOS-M has going for it.   If you don't have any existing Canon glass then I really don't see why you'd want one.

That said, the 18-55 (?) Image Stabilized M-series lens seems to take some VERY nice pictures that rival even the best cameras using top lenses.  Perhaps it is simply due to skilled experience and testing by the Canon photographers?

People who buy the really specialized lenses like the Fisheye lenses or the Primes like the 50mm f1.2 lens with its razor-type DOF or even the 100mm L Macro will find this new camera will offer tremendous specialized use.

But that's my point.   If you don't already have those lenses, you can just as easily go to another system for them.   For example M43 has fisheye lenses, macro lenses, lenses with superfast (f/0.95) apertures, constant aperture zooms, etc.   What's better, they're all available in the native M43 mount so most of them are optimized for size and weight and you don't have to deal with adapters that add bulk or large, heavy lenses built to cover a full frame sensor.

If you've already got those lenses from Canon, then the EOS-M is a natural choice.  If not, I don't see what the attraction is.

It's too bad, because I'm ready to downsize into a mirrorless system and I was waiting for Canon to tip its hand - but so far all I see is a pair of 2's...

Foniks Junior Member • Posts: 31
Re: The EOS-M Quandary...

You're right. They didn't screw up. They have some areas they need to improve on. But if their autofocus performance is that of a camera 2 years ago. That's fine. I have some much older cameras that are perfectly acceptable. Obviously that's not suitable for everyone, but I don't shoot kids or sports (and if I need to, I have a camera for that).

Now - the one thing the OP missed completely, is that while the autofocus is disappointing, the reviewer did mention they liked the camera, and the image quality according to the article is pretty damn good. That is not the definition of a mess.

Foniks Junior Member • Posts: 31
Re: The EOS-M Quandary...

That's not quite true. Remember the entire Rebel range is called Kiss in Japan - with appropriate marketing for women. But you stick a Rebel badge on the same camera - it's now a mans camera. Or more accurately - targeted at the key camera buying demographic for the American market.

That's all it is - they are just aligning the image with the key demographic in each market place. They haven't changed the camera itself to be a "womens" or a "mans" camera.

ageha
ageha Contributing Member • Posts: 651
Re: The verdict is in: EOS-M is terribly SLOW.

pixelmess wrote:

The EOS-M's auto focus speed is 2 years TOO LATE.

" Then, there are those that nearly drive us to tears, instantly tarnishing our opinion of otherwise capable models. We were devastated to see that the EOS M's focusing performance falls just shy of that latter grouping -- the cameras that just plain stink at bringing a subject into focus quickly."

"...but the dismal focusing performance means SLRs will probably be far more appealing to these users."

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/03/canon-eos-m-review/

Sure it's just one review from a non-photography-specific site, but the long-suspicion of many (based on the youtube marketing hype) is now verified. This is certainly just a BEGINNING of many other reviews regarding its sluggish performance.

What a mess.

No surprise but most people don't need the fastest AF in the world.

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ByronP Contributing Member • Posts: 878
Re: The EOS-M Quandary...
1

I have plenty of Canon cameras and glass.  I want a small compact camera that has similar controls of say a gx1 and can focus as slow as a t4i.  Right now Canon does not make that camera for me.  Maybe next year.  I would be happy with a 7d in a t4i body.

Bp

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Donkey914 Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: The verdict is in: EOS-M is terribly SLOW.

ageha wrote:

pixelmess wrote:

The EOS-M's auto focus speed is 2 years TOO LATE.

" Then, there are those that nearly drive us to tears, instantly tarnishing our opinion of otherwise capable models. We were devastated to see that the EOS M's focusing performance falls just shy of that latter grouping -- the cameras that just plain stink at bringing a subject into focus quickly."

"...but the dismal focusing performance means SLRs will probably be far more appealing to these users."

http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/03/canon-eos-m-review/

Sure it's just one review from a non-photography-specific site, but the long-suspicion of many (based on the youtube marketing hype) is now verified. This is certainly just a BEGINNING of many other reviews regarding its sluggish performance.

What a mess.

No surprise but most people don't need the fastest AF in the world.

My take is that anyone considering this camera ought to try it out to determine just how "slow" slow really is. 1 second? 2 seconds? It's definitely going to lag behind other solutions, and that has upset some, but in real-world performance, what does it add up to? We'll know in 2 weeks...

caterpillar Veteran Member • Posts: 7,637
Re: The verdict is in: EOS-M is terribly SLOW.
1

Donkey914 wrote:

My take is that anyone considering this camera ought to try it out to determine just how "slow" slow really is. 1 second? 2 seconds? It's definitely going to lag behind other solutions, and that has upset some, but in real-world performance, what does it add up to? We'll know in 2 weeks...

My guess is typical, in good light, it's 0.8 - 1 sec. In dim light, 1.5-2+ seconds. My guess is it will be blasted for a poor AF.

Though I agree that not everybody value a fast AF, in this day and age, where the competitor's MILC's AF is very fast, such performance is unacceptable. What is grating about it is that the price is above board too. Add to that the U$200 adapter to make your ef-s lenses work, you're over U$1,000 for the thing. No doubt, in the succeeding months, we'll see the price drop and if sales are slow, which I think it might be, we will see some significant price drops.

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