Let's put the FF crowds into test

Started Sep 7, 2012 | Discussions
Tan68
Tan68 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,773
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

James O'Neill wrote:

Except.... My digital prints are fantastic. Seriously, an A3 size print with Epson K3 ink and art paper eclipses anything I ever made on 35mm film. Why ?

it is easy to always want more. but whatever i do with digital now is much better than whatever it was i did with film.. you're right. i have thought the same before. it doesn't stay in the front of my forethought. it gets pushed to the back by.. stuff. retrieving that thought reminds me that much of what i have done now i could not have done before.

i should be happy.

now someone or some marketing agency will whisper about the even more amazing things that can be done with more stuff.

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,789
Examples

Hi,

Unexpresivecanvas wrote:

"What makes me want a bigger capture area (FF) is my desire for Even better IQ at base ISO, better volume rendering, better perspective control, better DOF control, better possibility to compose and compose with sub-compositions using the 3D plane of the frame"

+1

Agree 100% on your reasoning.

In such case I am sure you will have great time browsing through the link bellow!

And of course to illustrate to everybody what I was talking about(especially the "compose with sub-compositions using the 3D plane of the frame" concept):

http://www.pbase.com/hwatt/scotland&page=all

All the photos are made by and property of Ian Cameron. A truly gifted and simply outstanding artist.
All photos taken with the Pentax 67II

Have a great day/evening!
Yanko
--
Regards,
Yanko Kitanov

I am dreaming to enhance the sensitivity of my own perception and not the sensitivity of my camera's sensor...

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,789
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

Hi,

Unexpresivecanvas wrote:

I have plenty of glass to play with: "A", "M", "FA", Takumar lenses, Tamron 90mm FF, Ricoh 35mm FF Pentax mount -excellent lenses all of them-. If ever a FF 35mm equivalent comes form Pentax I would like to test the theories that the digital sensor is too much for the old lenses. I don't believe it and that's one of the reasons I want to see some real test of a FF 35mm using old glass. The proof of the pudding is.....

Others' experience may vary, but from what I was able to clearly see - we are far from reaching the limits of the good old film era lenses, period.

A small example - the Nikon D800E produced razor sharp RAW at pixel level using wide open a converted CZJ Flektogon T* 35mm f/2.8 back from 1952-1953! I think this makes it as clear as it gets.

Cheers!
--
Regards,
Yanko Kitanov

I am dreaming to enhance the sensitivity of my own perception and not the sensitivity of my camera's sensor...

El Profe Senior Member • Posts: 1,706
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

If Pentax decides to sell a full frame version of the K5 I will order one, even if I have to sell a few of my other cameras to afford it.

wy2lam Veteran Member • Posts: 3,190
Me.

Not within a year, probably more like 3 months IF the lenses are there.

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Winder Senior Member • Posts: 1,491
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

Without seeing it I can't say. I started saving for my 5D replacement 5 years ago and had planned on going with the Sony A900 after seeing the 5DII, but Sony was slow with firmware updates and they have moved to SLT technology which is a negative. I loved the A900 VF and build quality.

If Pentax will deliver a K-1 with the 24MP FF sensor and ergonomics of the K-5 (think A900 crossed with a K-5) then I would absolutely buy one in the first year. While putting away money and changing my mind a few times I have put away enough to buy a 645D with the latest price reduction. All my Pentax glass is either FA or Sigma 50mm F/1.4 & Sigma 85mm F/1.4. The 31mm LTD is the only one I worry about on a FF.

Pentax still has a lot of work to do to support the FF crowd, but they need to start somewhere.
--
Contax 645, Canon 5D (sold), Olympus E-3 (sold), Playing with a K-7 and K-5

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Pontoneer Senior Member • Posts: 2,356
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

What seems to be overlooked here is that , I'd reckon , a large proportion of Pentax users are like me : been shooting Pentax on film for years ( in my case since the early 1970's , others even longer ) and , besides having a fair investment in Pentax bodies and glass ( all of my glass works with my film bodies and I don't have a single digital-only lens ) , we are all getting to be of a certain age where out eyes aren't as sharp as they used to be .

I don't know about others , but I have yet to try an APSC camera with a decent viewfinder , they are all small , dim and it is impossible to perceive with any certainty when a subject is in focus .

All of my film bodies have big , bright finders with , in some cases split centre image focussing screens which my slightly fuzzy eyesight has no difficulty with .

I don't shoot much film these days , most of my old bodies are either ornaments or dormant in a Peli case up in the attic , but I do still carry one MZ-S and one LX body in my kit for occasional use . Most of my lenses are SMC-M and about 30 odd years old , although I do have a couple of Sigma EX AF lenses and some old Takumar M42 lenses as well .

I have , and still use , my *istD as my regular camera , bought my daughter her K10D when it was current , and have tried each new model since but never felt that they were the quantum leap I have been waiting for . I was tempted by the K5 , but have held off for something better since I am still happy shooting on my existing cameras .

For me , size is not hugely important , although I always preferred something the size of the MX or LX to bigger SLR's and much prefer my *istD with a fast prime on it to the D3 or even D300 cameras we have at work . I wouldn't want anything much bigger or heavier than a D300 , otherwise might as well start looking at medium format .

No , I just want something with a decent viewfinder again , something I can still use all my lenses on ; I would like , but don't expect , TTL flash backwards compatibility as only seen on the *ist D , and a return to CF cards rather than fiddly little SD cards .

Improved image quality and low noise will , of course , be beneficial - but it is the ergonomics of the camera that interest me .

Yes , I will buy one within the first year if the product and the price are right .

-- hide signature --

With kind regards

Derek.

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Tan68
Tan68 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,773
Re: Examples

these are great pictures and i have enjoyed looking through them. the colors are very nice. wouldn't it be possible to take pictures like these with a little Pentax ?

Yanko Kitanov wrote:

And of course to illustrate to everybody what I was talking about(especially the "compose with sub-compositions using the 3D plane of the frame" concept):

http://www.pbase.com/hwatt/scotland&page=all

All the photos are made by and property of Ian Cameron. A truly gifted and simply outstanding artist.
All photos taken with the Pentax 67II

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pebar_Walsall
pebar_Walsall Regular Member • Posts: 181
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

I'm with Pontoneer on this one

I'd be happy with an upgraded APS-C sensor as long as it has a full frame viewfinder

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GordonSaunders
GordonSaunders Forum Member • Posts: 53
Maybe bigger than FF?

Has anyone considered that Pentax might stick with apc-s for enthusiast bodies but also announce a better, less expensive 645? Charging £4,000 (roughly $6,000) for a version of that would see Pentax leapfrogging Canikon and giving the FF lovers something even better to lust after - and there are lenses available for it. They would enhance the brand image without betting the company on a FF which paled in comparison with Canikon's seasoned offerings.

One of the rumours circulating suggests that there will be a flagship 24mp K3 with two versions of the K5 also offered: one would have the antialias screen weakened for sharper images, the other would use the updated sensor from the K30. For a limited budget Pentax could present a range of new products which pleased most people.
--
Gordon Saunders

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cam shooter Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: Maybe bigger than FF?

This actually would be a great strategy for Pentax.

Cane Veteran Member • Posts: 6,900
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

Pontoneer wrote:

What seems to be overlooked here is that , I'd reckon , a large proportion of Pentax users are like me : been shooting Pentax on film for years ( in my case since the early 1970's , others even longer ) and , besides having a fair investment in Pentax bodies and glass ( all of my glass works with my film bodies and I don't have a single digital-only lens ) , we are all getting to be of a certain age where out eyes aren't as sharp as they used to be .

I don't know about others , but I have yet to try an APSC camera with a decent viewfinder , they are all small , dim and it is impossible to perceive with any certainty when a subject is in focus .

All of my film bodies have big , bright finders with , in some cases split centre image focussing screens which my slightly fuzzy eyesight has no difficulty with .

I don't shoot much film these days , most of my old bodies are either ornaments or dormant in a Peli case up in the attic , but I do still carry one MZ-S and one LX body in my kit for occasional use . Most of my lenses are SMC-M and about 30 odd years old , although I do have a couple of Sigma EX AF lenses and some old Takumar M42 lenses as well .

I have , and still use , my *istD as my regular camera , bought my daughter her K10D when it was current , and have tried each new model since but never felt that they were the quantum leap I have been waiting for . I was tempted by the K5 , but have held off for something better since I am still happy shooting on my existing cameras .

For me , size is not hugely important , although I always preferred something the size of the MX or LX to bigger SLR's and much prefer my *istD with a fast prime on it to the D3 or even D300 cameras we have at work . I wouldn't want anything much bigger or heavier than a D300 , otherwise might as well start looking at medium format .

No , I just want something with a decent viewfinder again , something I can still use all my lenses on ; I would like , but don't expect , TTL flash backwards compatibility as only seen on the *ist D , and a return to CF cards rather than fiddly little SD cards .

Improved image quality and low noise will , of course , be beneficial - but it is the ergonomics of the camera that interest me .

Yes , I will buy one within the first year if the product and the price are right .

-- hide signature --

With kind regards

Derek.

I don't know if making cameras for old people is pentax's idea of good marketing, or that it is a large segment of their users, despite the disproportionate amount of folks in that category on message boards. It for sure is a shrinking group and not a growing group. Look at their products, colored DSLRs, the k-01, the q. They have Asian 20 something's ahead of you.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,789
Re: Examples

Hi,

To put the short answer first: Yes it is Absolutely possible and there is no excuse for those of us who have the chance to go out and Make similar captures for not doing so.

To be a bit more analytical: There are some drawbacks. Here are some, so that we can evaluate them.

- With MF film you can print much bigger while retaining critical IQ, which is important when you have to sell and exhibit at the given level.

- The bigger print also gives the chance to people to Actually see and understand such complex compositions and sub-compositions in the frame. On screen or with smaller prints it is impossible to retain the same straight forward impact on the viewer.

- Besides the chance to compose for orchestra not only for a piano the MF transparency slide also provides much more pronounced perspective control. You also have more T/S lenses to correct it or exaggerate it additionally.

- The MF/LF slide provides unparalleled volume rendering – this is the 3d-ish “pop” of the frame, which is so pleasant to the eye and contributes Huge to the overall IQ and feeling when looking at the print. In the digital world imo only the Foveon technology (while having many drawbacks) provides similar out-of-camera impact.

- The so called “plasticity of the drawing” – the feeling that objects have exact shape, size and perspective is also much stronger with larger capture areas.

- There was the additional “pro” of having Kodachrome/Ektachrome colours out of the camera while Kodak was actually alive. But as we see here Fujichrome Velvia is stunning for landscape work too, so Ian Cameron proves this point of mine senseless.

I am providing here some LF slide scans, lacking the strength of the perfect light and the excellent composition, so that you can evaluate the purely technical side of the superb volume rendering and drawing plasticity of LF and MF without being focused on the stunning beauty of Ian’s work: http://www.shorpy.com/image/tid/179

Though MF provides some exact “pros” as we can see there is no actual reason why one can’t Make such excellent photos with any decent camera from any brand.

P.S. I prefer to use the term make instead of take for such work, as well as I make the comparison to musical composition above by the influence of A. Adams’ opinion and comparisons.

P.S.2 Darn Firefox Nightly restarted 3 times while I was writing such a long message - it is a sign that I should keep the long story short I guess.

Have a great day/evening!
Yanko

-- hide signature --

Regards,
Yanko Kitanov

I am dreaming to enhance the sensitivity of my own perception and not the sensitivity of my camera's sensor...

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,789
Re: Maybe bigger than FF?

Gordon,

I am 100% with you here - this is what the lens road map shows so far.

Also AA filters are so 1990s now, after Nikon proved that the No AA(actually a modified one) in the D800e shows no moire in 95% of the possible situations.

Have a fine day/evening!
Yanko

GordonSaunders wrote:

Has anyone considered that Pentax might stick with apc-s for enthusiast bodies but also announce a better, less expensive 645? Charging £4,000 (roughly $6,000) for a version of that would see Pentax leapfrogging Canikon and giving the FF lovers something even better to lust after - and there are lenses available for it. They would enhance the brand image without betting the company on a FF which paled in comparison with Canikon's seasoned offerings.

One of the rumours circulating suggests that there will be a flagship 24mp K3 with two versions of the K5 also offered: one would have the antialias screen weakened for sharper images, the other would use the updated sensor from the K30. For a limited budget Pentax could present a range of new products which pleased most people.
--
Gordon Saunders

-- hide signature --

Regards,
Yanko Kitanov

I am dreaming to enhance the sensitivity of my own perception and not the sensitivity of my camera's sensor...

JustDavid
OP JustDavid Contributing Member • Posts: 514
2 days on...

...and we have at max 5 definite YESes and about four times as many YESIFs. Hmmm, Pentax better count their money twice before stepping into FF land...

Funny that many of the loudest FF wishers have avoided this thread.

Bring on the next week
--
davidsladek | virtual world
http://www.davidsladek.com

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fakuryu
fakuryu Senior Member • Posts: 1,329
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

If I had the cash to burn? Why not? I "might" benefit from the flatter DoF. My DA40 Ltd might become my most used lens for that system and I could just imagine what my DA70 could do.

I already have the two right now so I guess I'm good if ever a FF comes out.

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It's not about the tool, its how you use it

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Unexpresivecanvas Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: Maybe bigger than FF?

I think that 35mm equivalent FF is becoming the new standard for people who does photography on a more serious level. -and of course, is the dominant standard for professionals

DSLRs are what we, serious amateurs, use. With the expected announcements from Nikon of a sub-$2000 FF, people who are not heavily invested in DA* lenses have the possibility to move easily into FF quality territory if Pentax doens't come with similar offering. Pentax just need to implement all the knowledge they have in miniaturization, color,management, image processing. All I would ask is all the features of the K5 with the AF of the K30 using FF sensor. How hard is it?

Go$rdonSaunders wrote:

Has anyone considered that Pentax might stick with apc-s for enthusiast bodies but also announce a better, less expensive 645? Charging £4,000 (roughly $6,000) for a version of that would see Pentax leapfrogging Canikon and giving the FF lovers something even better to lust after - and there are lenses available for it. They would enhance the brand image without betting the company on a FF which paled in comparison with Canikon's seasoned offerings.

I don't see it helping that many users. Do you realize how costly the 645d lenses are? Probably a good set of 645d lenses costs north of $10,000.

One of the rumours circulating suggests that there will be a flagship 24mp K3 with two versions of the K5 also offered: one would have the antialias screen weakened for sharper images, the other would use the updated sensor from the K30. For a limited budget Pentax could present a range of new products which pleased most people.
--
Gordon Saunders

Unexpresivecanvas Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: Examples

Hi Yanko,

Thank you for the link. It,s very interesting work. I really enjoy Ian Cameron's work.

Have you seen the work of Anna Pagnacco? I think is in the same line like Ian's.

http://www.pbase.com/annapagnacco

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,789
Re: Examples

Thanks for sharing Anna's work. It is always inspiring to see others work. I liked her documentary portraits.

Talking about landscape I liked her work from the Dolomites. In terms of approach her work is closer to what a fellow memeber on DPR does - Hans Kruse: http://www.pbase.com/hkruse . By the way he also loves working in the Dolomites - another resemblance between them!

Cheers!
--
Regards,
Yanko Kitanov

I am dreaming to enhance the sensitivity of my own perception and not the sensitivity of my camera's sensor...

Unexpresivecanvas Senior Member • Posts: 1,158
Re: Let's put the FF crowds into test

Hi Awaldram,

Since you are riding the tall horse of "I know every thing and the rest are simply stupid or ignorant"...... could you tell this ignorant crowd a little more about your ideas re: pros and cons of FF?

awaldram wrote:

Well I think today it all a load of nonsense. People baying for FF who don;t even understand the pro and cons.

Take the push my lens idea what a load of guff aps-c is considerably harder on a lens IQ than FF obvious if you think about it the same resolution for pixel density is around 40 Mpixels.

You seems to always own the truth... look at your statements:

The truth is anyone who needs and understands FF already has it those who havn;t are unlikely to invert just because manufacturer produces one.

Couldn't it be possible that consumers go through something called the "financial cycle life" and financial situations, personal settings, age change? At least I am in a cohort where my financial situation has improved over time, just being mortgage free, not debts, three almost brand new or recently acquired new cars in the house that are fully paid, not personal debts, I can now afford better things I couldn't a few years ago. Also with more interest in art I want to extend the frontier of my photography... then, are not these good reasons to think I really can afford a FF not only for bragging rights?

The other consideration IF pentax produced a FF at a reasonable price it would be a yugo in a world of Roll Royce's. So all those 'bragging rights' not photo ability gang are not going to be happy.

Remember that Pentax brought us the best of the best APS-C camera. The K-5 is the rolls royce of APS-C cameras.. Why is so hard to imagine they can come with a similar disruptive development in FF?

So in short unless today your shooting with a Sigma 4.5 or 8-16 and it just isn't wide enough, shooting 12,800 but need 6400 or have no idea how focal length and aperture affect DoF then it is all a spitting (lang filter wont allow pxssing how quaint ) contest rather than any true purchase plan.

I believe you have to purchase and be exposed to the gear and then you will be forced to figure out DOF, ISO performance, focal lenghts. An investment plan doesn't teach you practical things about photography or gives you the real experience

Its all pretty boring after 10 year of Pentax declaring no FF what are you doing still shooting Pentax .??

It was boring for a while. Now it wil get exciting. Now Pentax/Ricoh is forced to give us an answer. why? wait for the announcements from Nikon and the next developments of Sony and Canon. FF will become the new standard for serious amateurs, semi-pros, photography students, schools. I almost can see the writing on the wall

Anyway, happy shooting

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