Updating backup after editing - LR4 Question.

Started Aug 20, 2012 | Discussions
DP in Tejas Regular Member • Posts: 142
Updating backup after editing - LR4 Question.

I am looking for a simple way to update my backups from LR4 after I've done additionl editing. I've tried to do an import and lightroom will not highlight any of the photo files to allow an import. Ideally, I was hoping for some sort of syncronazation, but I'm not sure if you can do that from one drive to another. Since the edits are in PS rather than LR, they aren't automatically updated. Any suggestions are appreciated.

HDProman Contributing Member • Posts: 937
Re: Updating backup after editing - LR4 Question.

I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but hopefully you have come to the right place and me or someone else has the answer you are looking for.

I will make a few statements and probably you will have additional questions, it just might be the best way to help you.

When you edit anything in Lightroom no changes are made to you original photo, either a raw or jpg. The edits are only metadata and this metadata is saved in the Lightroom catalog. When you backup your catalog these edits (metadata) are now safe in a catalog backup. No where on any hard drive is there a file, except the Lightroom, catalog that will show these edits. In the import dialog you will see and option called "Don't Import Suspected Duplicates" and it is usually checked. Since your image is already imported it is grayed out to stop you from importing a duplicate. Do you understand this concept?

When in Lightroom you can select a photo, either raw, psd, jpg or any format that Lightroom supports, and choose "edit in Photoshop" and Lightroom will hand this image off to Photoshop for editing. When working with a raw file Lightroom will not allow you to edit the original, this is impossible, but Photoshop will use the raw data to create a .psd file that you will edit. With other formats you can either create a new file or edited the original. When working with a raw file Photoshop creates a .psd file or .tiff if that is your Photoshop setting and you edit this new file. When finished the .psd file is automatically imported into Lightroom and now you have a new file. Do you understand this concept?

This new .psd file now exist in your file system and in the Lightroom catalog and if you want a backup of this new file you would use whatever software you prefer to make a backup. You could just backup new or updated files and this new .psd file would be included in your backup. Are you still with me?

I don't recommend this workflow, but you could while in Lightroom select this new .psd file and choose export and set format to original and just export your new .psd file to whatever hard drive that contains your backup images. Backing up your entire photo library with software that has a setting to only backup new or changed files would be my recommended method. Does this make sense and what new questions do you have?

Floyd...

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Newbie, having fun.

malch Forum Pro • Posts: 14,046
Re: Updating backup after editing - LR4 Question.

HDProman wrote:

When you edit anything in Lightroom no changes are made to you original photo, either a raw or jpg. The edits are only metadata and this metadata is saved in the Lightroom catalog. When you backup your catalog these edits (metadata) are now safe in a catalog backup.

Depending on one's definition of "safe".

Personally, it doesn't matter how many backups I make of the LR catalog, my data isn't safe because it's all tied up in a proprietary database that is hard to access by any other means.

As far as LR is concerned, nothing exists outside of LR. Yes, it has import/export functions but that is still a major philosophical problem for me.

When I stuff valuable data into a relational database (e.g. MySQL) I don't rely upon binary backups of the database. I also dump out the tables to ASCII files such that a database can quickly be reconstructed, possibly in a different database management system (Oracle, SQL Server etc.). That's not a practical proposition with LR.

I feel the same way about my email and refuse to use Outlook and the other MS products because, once again, they lock me into proprietary files. I like Thunderbird because it uses standard and highly portable MBOX files.

Back to photo apps... this aspect is a real problem with pretty much all non-destructive editing implementations. I guess we badly need a de jure/open standard.

Chris Noble
Chris Noble Senior Member • Posts: 2,243
Use a dummy Catalog for that purpose

DP said:

I am looking for a simple way to update my backups from LR4 after I've done additionl editing. I've tried to do an import and lightroom will not highlight any of the photo files to allow an import. Ideally, I was hoping for some sort of syncronazation, but I'm not sure if you can do that from one drive to another. Since the edits are in PS rather than LR, they aren't automatically updated. Any suggestions are appreciated.

Your edits are all stored in the LR Catalog File. LR can be set to backup the Catalog File each time it exits but not before. One "trick" is to set up a second Catalog File. When you want to back up, switch from your working Catalog to the second catalog; LR will close your working catalog file, and back it up (if you chose to back up the Catalog every time LR exits). As soon as you have switched to the second Catalog, switch back to your working catalog and you will be back where you left off with a backed-up Catalog File.

Do not duplicate the LR Catalog File using another program while LR is running. The backup will be corrupt, and you may cause access clashes to the Catalog File as it is a SQL database that has a lot of unresolved pointers when it is open.

 Chris Noble's gear list:Chris Noble's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 +3 more
GideonW Contributing Member • Posts: 822
Re: Updating backup after editing - LR4 Question.

malch wrote:

HDProman wrote:

When you edit anything in Lightroom no changes are made to you original photo, either a raw or jpg. The edits are only metadata and this metadata is saved in the Lightroom catalog. When you backup your catalog these edits (metadata) are now safe in a catalog backup.

Depending on one's definition of "safe".

Personally, it doesn't matter how many backups I make of the LR catalog, my data isn't safe because it's all tied up in a proprietary database that is hard to access by any other means.

As far as LR is concerned, nothing exists outside of LR. Yes, it has import/export functions but that is still a major philosophical problem for me.

When I stuff valuable data into a relational database (e.g. MySQL) I don't rely upon binary backups of the database. I also dump out the tables to ASCII files such that a database can quickly be reconstructed, possibly in a different database management system (Oracle, SQL Server etc.). That's not a practical proposition with LR.

I feel the same way about my email and refuse to use Outlook and the other MS products because, once again, they lock me into proprietary files. I like Thunderbird because it uses standard and highly portable MBOX files.

Back to photo apps... this aspect is a real problem with pretty much all non-destructive editing implementations. I guess we badly need a de jure/open standard.

You can have Lightroom store all edits in an XMP file that accompanies each image file. XMP is an open standard for metadata that was developed by Adobe. Since it's open, anyone can make a program to read it. This allows you to backup the original image and the edits that were made to it, without needing the .lrcat file from Lightroom.

malch Forum Pro • Posts: 14,046
Re: Updating backup after editing - LR4 Question.

GideonW wrote:

You can have Lightroom store all edits in an XMP file that accompanies each image file. XMP is an open standard for metadata that was developed by Adobe. Since it's open, anyone can make a program to read it. This allows you to backup the original image and the edits that were made to it, without needing the .lrcat file from Lightroom.

True although:

1. Some folks (me included) find XMP sidecars a PITA.

2. Although other apps can read the EXIF/IPTC fields from an XMP file, I don't believe anything else could "replay" the edits to the actual image bitmap. So to be secure (without a total dependence on LR) you have to export all of your images to TIFF/JPEG or whatever. And that means you lose much of the benefits of the catalog and non-destructive editing.

OP DP in Tejas Regular Member • Posts: 142
A more detailed explanation of my difficulties

I have my backup files saved on an external hard drive. Once they have been saved, if I do a subsequent edit in Photoshop the photo file on my computer will be different than the one saved on the external drive.

If the folder on my hard drive differs from the folder on the external drive, shouldn't LR be able to recognize this and allow me to do an update without a lot of hassle. I was hoping for something like the synchronize folder command.

The type of editing I'm doing isn't possible in LR. I make my edits in PS so it isn't just metadata that is modified. I have the LR4 reference book by Nat Coalson, but I haven't found where he addresses it.

I confess I'm new to LR. I love the Raw Converter in the Develp mode and Library seems straight forward, but there are a few things I've yet to work through. Again, I appreciate the help offered here.

Chris Noble
Chris Noble Senior Member • Posts: 2,243
Re: A more detailed explanation of my difficulties

Hi DP,

sounds like you need a standard backup program. You want to run the incremental backup manually and frequently (backs up changed files). Most people find that a weekly or daily automated incremental backup is sufficient.

 Chris Noble's gear list:Chris Noble's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 +3 more
OP DP in Tejas Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: A more detailed explanation of my difficulties

Any suggestions? I was thinking that the database and catalog capabilities of LR would allow for incremental updating also. It would be interesting to know what some of the Forum use for their backup file management workflow. Thanks.

Chris Noble
Chris Noble Senior Member • Posts: 2,243
Backup SW

I use the free Microsoft software that is part of W 7 Professional. It does mirror images, incremental backups, restores to any point in the past, scheduled and manual backups, file-type or folder/name control, full crash or new-disk restores, etc etc....

 Chris Noble's gear list:Chris Noble's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Leica Summilux DG 25mm F1.4 +3 more
malch Forum Pro • Posts: 14,046
Re: A more detailed explanation of my difficulties

Chris Noble wrote:

sounds like you need a standard backup program. You want to run the incremental backup manually and frequently (backs up changed files). Most people find that a weekly or daily automated incremental backup is sufficient.

I wouldn't trust myself with incremental backups and I'm more experienced and disciplined that most end users. Incremental backups work okay and can be essential in a highly structured and disciplined data center environment. Not at home, IMO.

Simple imaging and file synchronization are much better/safer options in my view.

Leigh A. Wax Senior Member • Posts: 1,050
Goodsync.

Goodsync:
http://www.goodsync.com/

Take any modified files and or folders on your "main" hard drive, and sync them to a back-up drive. Couldn't be easier.

Leigh

http://www.leighwax.com

OP DP in Tejas Regular Member • Posts: 142
Re: Goodsync.

Problem solved. Thanks Leigh. I should have known there was a better tool. BTW, love your website. Beautiful work.

Leigh A. Wax Senior Member • Posts: 1,050
Re: Goodsync.

Thanks for the compliment.

regards,
Leigh

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