Ricoh GRD4 vs. Sony DSC RX100

Started Aug 9, 2012 | Discussions
A Subset Senior Member • Posts: 2,419
Ricoh GRD4 vs. Sony DSC RX100

I just stumbled across this new Sony and I'll be damned if it ain't serious competition to the GRD4! For those who have been complaining about fixed lens and small sensor size, check this out.

  • A.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-dsc-rx100/2

 A Subset's gear list:A Subset's gear list
Konica Minolta DiMAGE A2 Ricoh GR Digital IV Minolta DiMAGE 7 Ricoh GXR P10 28-300mm F3.5-5.6 VC Minolta DiMAGE A1 +9 more
Sony RX100
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Trafford
Trafford Veteran Member • Posts: 8,255
Re: Ricoh GRD4 vs. Sony DSC RX100

A Subset wrote:

I just stumbled across this new Sony and I'll be damned if it ain't serious competition to the GRD4! For those who have been complaining about fixed lens and small sensor size, check this out.

They don't stand up too well - take a look at this owner's
experience.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1009&thread=42220616

OP A Subset Senior Member • Posts: 2,419
Re: Ricoh GRD4 vs. Sony DSC RX100

That's hilarious! FINALLY a camera with a rock solid battery door.

  • A.

 A Subset's gear list:A Subset's gear list
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Darrell Spreen Forum Pro • Posts: 10,475
Now I see

Trafford wrote:

They don't stand up too well - take a look at this owner's
experience.

I always wondered what Sonys looked like inside.

-- hide signature --

Darrell

OP A Subset Senior Member • Posts: 2,419
Re: Now I see

So is this how they get 13.2 mm to equal 1 inch, they run over it several times with a concrete truck?

Sensor size 1" (13.2 x 8.8 mm)

Can anyone explain this to me? An inch is no longer 25.4 mm, now it's 13.2 mm. Does this have anything to do with Nixon closing the gold window? Or maybe it's the Greeks trying to find more money in their container shipping rates? I swear (my mother doesn't like it, but I do it...) this is insane. But then, whutz gnu?

  • A.

 A Subset's gear list:A Subset's gear list
Konica Minolta DiMAGE A2 Ricoh GR Digital IV Minolta DiMAGE 7 Ricoh GXR P10 28-300mm F3.5-5.6 VC Minolta DiMAGE A1 +9 more
PGR streetshooter Contributing Member • Posts: 974
Re: Now I see

A Subset wrote:

So is this how they get 13.2 mm to equal 1 inch, they run over it several times with a concrete truck?

Sensor size 1" (13.2 x 8.8 mm)

Can anyone explain this to me? An inch is no longer 25.4 mm, now it's 13.2 mm. Does this have anything to do with Nixon closing the gold window? Or maybe it's the Greeks trying to find more money in their container shipping rates? I swear (my mother doesn't like it, but I do it...) this is insane. But then, whutz gnu?

  • A.

Geeze, come on get with the tymes.....you are correct about the size of the inch being 25.4. That's the analog inch. The 13.2 is the digital inch. That of course is without a crop factor.
Now just think about the relative value of money, it will all make sense.

This mathematical equation does not effect Leica.
--
Cheers, Don

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OP A Subset Senior Member • Posts: 2,419
Re: Now I see

PGR streetshooter wrote:

...That's the analog inch. The 13.2 is the digital inch. That of course is without a crop factor.
Cheers, Don

Does this have anything to do with the drought? Maybe this digital inch needs less water. But if one gallon of water equals 1.75 liters I'm not sure the plants will fare any better. But I DO know that one toke of modern pot is SERIOUSLY better than an entire doobie of Acapulco Gold, so maybe there is something to this new math.

  • A.

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GTItraveler Regular Member • Posts: 252
Re: Now I see

Funny story. At least he has a good attitude about it!

Seriously though, I would really like to know how the image quality stands up on this camera. Steve Huff seems to really like it as do many of the reviews that have been posted.

I have been using Ricoh cameras since the GR-1 and am quite enamored with their UI as wel as what I can get from them. The zoom on the RX100 is less of interest to me than image quality and low light/high ISO shooting. Does anyone have personal experiences with both the RX100 and the GRDIV? TIA Bruce

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anthony mazzeri Senior Member • Posts: 2,057
Re: Ricoh GRD4 vs. Sony DSC RX100

A Subset wrote:

I just stumbled across this new Sony and I'll be damned if it ain't serious competition to the GRD4! For those who have been complaining about fixed lens and small sensor size, check this out.

I feel like a traitor as I just picked one of these up myself yesterday. I've gone to the dark side. I still can't believe I just bought a Sony. After just one day with it I can say if Ricoh made a similar 1" zoom, I'd get that instead without hesitation.

But they don't. So the RX100 is the clear winner. It actually has no competition.

But it does have its foibles. I don't know, there's just something about the Ricoh interface that makes it so much easier and intuitive. As slick as the Sony interface is, it's still non-intuitive. Maybe it's the use of small icons. I find it really hard to remember what every icon (a face with three stars?) is supposed to mean without referring to the manual. Either way, I find my thumb going in the wrong natural direction all the time anyway when using the controls which is why it's easier to believe Ricoh engineers actually use their own cameras.

Here's a simple thing - Ricoh's vertical menu pages actually work faster. When selecting an item in the menu, do you not simply click to the right if you want to change it and then simply move up/down to select the relevant option you want? On the Sony clicking to the right on a menu item actually shifts you to the whole next page of menu items. You have to click the central okay button instead to access the options. So you have to constantly lift your finger from the directional buttons to press the central okay button all the time to navigate everywhere. One of the small differences, but you don't realize how simple, easy and fast the Ricoh menu system is until you use another camera...

The handling of the GRD is also better being roughly the same weight (the RX100 is a mere 20 grams heavier). The extra length of the GRD camera/grip really does make all the difference for these small but relatively heavy cameras, without which you have to pinch like a claw to hold which cramps your hand very quickly. So maybe the RX100 is slightly too small. I've ordered an add-on grip which apparently is selling like hotcakes because it's such an improvement.

The control ring around the lens is something I'll have to get used to. I'd personally still prefer a front control dial so I can operate the camera one-handed. The lens ring obviously requires two hands. Okay for manual focus or zoom, but to select ISO etc is a different matter.

And AVCHD video, as good as it to view on a TV screen, it heinous to actually work with especially on a Mac. I've so far found only VLC.app can even open and view the RX100 AVCHD video files to date.

And also so far, no support for the RX100 RAW files yet either in any software so I'm basing my judgements on the JPGs - and my concliusion is the 1/1.7" sensor is officially yesterday's news when to comes to enthusiast compacts. If the GRD V or the Nikon P7200 or any other new enthusiast compact arrives with a 1/1/7" sensor now they will be D.O.A. The RX100 has changed the whole game. The current crop of cameras simply can't compete against a camera the same size or even smaller like the RX100 but with the image detail of a sensor twice the size and megapixels. It's like comparing a P&S compact vs the GRD, you know which one is going to win out.

And so despite it's handling and UI foibles, the RX100 does win out. Too easily. At a canter. Doesn't even break a sweat. But.. only for now though while Sony has the head-start on the other guys. Luckily for Ricoh, Sony makes Sony cameras that work and handle like Sonys, so as soon as the 1" GRD V... zoom would be good... arrives, it will be the enthusiast compact to have.

spacelounge Regular Member • Posts: 105
Re: Now I see

The RX100 is certainly contender in the digital compact area, in fact rather obviously the best offering; unless you need that the GR D is offering.

There's still no contender as far as usability goes. The GRD4 is a stand out camera despite its aging sensor.

I actually feel its too bad that the next in the GR series will probably utilize this larger sensor; I'd rather see development in smaller-size sensors and smaller lenses which allows for more compact cameras.

I would also like to see dynamic range improved before anything else. The RX100 apparently is still far behind in DR.

ChristianHass Senior Member • Posts: 2,940
Re: Now I see

A Subset wrote:

So is this how they get 13.2 mm to equal 1 inch, they run over it several times with a concrete truck?

Sensor size 1" (13.2 x 8.8 mm)

Can anyone explain this to me? An inch is no longer 25.4 mm, now it's 13.2 mm. Does this have anything to do with Nixon closing the gold window? Or maybe it's the Greeks trying to find more money in their container shipping rates? I swear (my mother doesn't like it, but I do it...) this is insane. But then, whutz gnu?

  • A.

Exactly the same way that Ricoh got the GRD sensor to measure 1/1.7", it's a standard, it's a poor one, but Sony isn't the only company using it.
--
Shooting for fun and memories.

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anthony mazzeri Senior Member • Posts: 2,057
Re: Now I see

ChristianHass wrote:

A Subset wrote:

So is this how they get 13.2 mm to equal 1 inch, they run over it several times with a concrete truck?

Sensor size 1" (13.2 x 8.8 mm)

Can anyone explain this to me? An inch is no longer 25.4 mm, now it's 13.2 mm. Does this have anything to do with Nixon closing the gold window? Or maybe it's the Greeks trying to find more money in their container shipping rates? I swear (my mother doesn't like it, but I do it...) this is insane. But then, whutz gnu?

  • A.

Exactly the same way that Ricoh got the GRD sensor to measure 1/1.7", it's a standard, it's a poor one, but Sony isn't the only company using it.

Yeah, it's some antiquated measuring system using the diameter of a cathode ray tube projection or somesuch now meaningless thing so totally irrelevant to today's digital sensors.

But what are they going to do. If one tries to be accurate and say 13.2 mm then the other guy saying 1" will have the advantage. So there needs to be a consensus or regulatory intervention like how makers were forced to be accurate with TV/monitor sizes

rube39 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,244
Re: Now I see

My RX100 will be here next week on the 15th. I ordered it because I need something small that shoots better than the waterproof PX while I am on Van Isle for the summer. I am not abandoning my Ricohs (CX, GRD, GXR) but I shoot with a lot of different gear.
Will let you know how it goes.
--
Rube
http://www.flickr.com/photos/71881102@N00/

BG_CX3_DPREVIEW Senior Member • Posts: 1,808
Re: Now I see

I know i will try it out, jst as i did with the Nikon J1, of which i was impressed by the speed and Iq, and the UI was not fully contrairy to the Ricoh UI.

I had a Sony, and using it was asif someone was constantly trying to push you to go into the "middle of the road" method of taking pics, boring.

Nevertheless, this RX100 will be a hot seller and very good camera.

Ricoh, please quench our thirst.

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pocketpygmy Contributing Member • Posts: 829
Re: Now I see

it may have an aging sensor, but its lens is certainly not something designed for obsolescence. i "downgraded" from m4/3 to a GRD4 and, y'know what, i don't really miss it... and i am continually impressed with the sharpness of the GRD's lens. i didn't think i'd notice a perceptible difference between sensor size and lens quality, but here i am, talkin' nothing but flowers...

also, sony cameras have no soul. i've done the tests, believe me.

anthony mazzeri Senior Member • Posts: 2,057
Re: Now I see

pocketpygmy wrote:

it may have an aging sensor, but its lens is certainly not something designed for obsolescence. i "downgraded" from m4/3 to a GRD4 and, y'know what, i don't really miss it... and i am continually impressed with the sharpness of the GRD's lens. i didn't think i'd notice a perceptible difference between sensor size and lens quality, but here i am, talkin' nothing but flowers...

also, sony cameras have no soul. i've done the tests, believe me.

This Zeiss lens on the RX100 is pretty impressive. Still hard to tell fully though as I'm still only JPG only until I get software RAW updates.

But I agree, if Ricoh puts a GR lens on a 20MP 1" sensor, it'll be a winner. But that means they'll end up with three different sized GR 28mm lenses including the current GRD and GXR lenses.

Maybe they can use the current GRD lens and 1/1.7" sensor on the Q (sans sensor stabilization so it will fit) and so the new GRD would be the 1" version. There's really no reason they need to stick with a 1/1.7" sensor for the GRD forever as it was originally a full 35mm film camera to begin with anyway.

pocketpygmy Contributing Member • Posts: 829
Re: Now I see

can you imagine a GRD/Q hybrid??

ricoh's UI and pentax's style... a "GRD-35" fixed-lens, fixed-focal length (35mm equivalent) compact camera, in fact the most compact camera with a built-in electronic viewfinder... but to make room for it there isn't even an LCD screen but it's still small and slim enough to easily fit in a pocket... a miniature fuji x100, if you will, a mini x10 for that matter... ricoh style snap focus features and generally fast, near-instant AF responsiveness overall... basically a GRD with an EVF bigger and better than the OM-D's instead of an LCD screen, with a bigger sensor, a bit of the pentax Q's retro knobs (should be able to quickly and easily adjust settings without taking your eye away from the viewfinder) and visual styling as well as ricoh's unassuming sleekness, a bright 35mm-eqiuv. prime lens instead of a 28mm (or any kind of zoom for that matter), size like a GRD or Q or smaller, and pentax and ricoh's general penchant for quirky, respectful and progressive camera design. the intended photographic experience : being able to hold it up to your eye (from your pocket, with just one hand) and snap a quick photo from a physical point in space that is closer to your own eyes' and mind's viewpoint than almost any other digital camera which is usually held out a few inches in front of your face -- and with the 35mm's more natural, less wideangle angle of view, it would make for a more personal and documentarianistic (uhh if ya know what i mean) kind of camera than most compacts. it'd be drop-dead cool of course, an instrument favored by the likes of 007... (not batman (olympus OM-D) or darth vader (panasonic G5)!)

Janarto Forum Member • Posts: 58
Re: Ricoh GRD4 vs. Sony DSC RX100

The RX100 is interesting but has some shortcomings :

  • The lens is not that good

  • The pixel count is very high and the sensor not that big so the noise performance and the dynamic range is not that good

  • Ergonomics is not that good

  • It's rather expensive.

Not that it's not a good camera, but it's far from being the best camera on the block.

The ricoh GRD4 has some other competitors :

Panasonic LX7 : Very good lens / decent sensor
Samsung EX2 : Good lens / good sensor

Sigma DP2m : Decent lens, magnificent sensor, but slow and rubbish in-camera jpeg

I'll take a DP2M 100 % of the time against the RX100.

Moneywise, the sony is as expensive as a Fuji X100 and neither the sensor nor the lens are nearly as good !

anthony mazzeri Senior Member • Posts: 2,057
Re: Ricoh GRD4 vs. Sony DSC RX100

You ake quite a few different points so I'll respond to each individually:

Janarto wrote:

The RX100 is interesting but has some shortcomings :

  • The lens is not that good

I'll reserve judgement on that until I can see the RAWs. Right now I can only use the JPGs so there's in-camera sharpening and noise-reduction which makes it hard to tell.

  • The pixel count is very high and the sensor not that big so the noise performance and the dynamic range is not that good

The 1" sensor area is 2.7x the size of the 1/1.7". The pixel count of 20MP is 2x the 10MP of the 1/1.7".

So it actually has less pixels per area than the smaller sensor, ergo less noise if you're using pixel-density as your criteria.

PS. Interestingly an APSC sensor is 2.8x the area of a 1", so it's pretty much the same multilplier as the 1" is to the 1/1.7".

  • Ergonomics is not that good

Yep, give me a Ricoh any day.

  • It's rather expensive.

Actually les sthan what I recall I paid for the GRD III.

Not that it's not a good camera, but it's far from being the best camera on the block.

The ricoh GRD4 has some other competitors :

Panasonic LX7 : Very good lens / decent sensor
Samsung EX2 : Good lens / good sensor

Both 1/1.7" sensors.

Sigma DP2m : Decent lens, magnificent sensor, but slow and rubbish in-camera jpeg

I'll take a DP2M 100 % of the time against the RX100.

The Sigmas are the same size and focal lengths as the GXR 28mm and 50mm cameras so it's a different class. I'll take the GXR 100% against the Sigmas. And did.

The RX100 is so much smaller. Truly pocketable, unlike the Sigmas and GXR. It's all about pocketable size when making the comparisons, so it should be against the Canon s100 or LX7 (as you mentioned), which the RX100 kills with its much larger sensor and megapixels. Even the Canon G1X is too big to be a comparison.

Moneywise, the sony is as expensive as a Fuji X100 and neither the sensor nor the lens are nearly as good !

Again it's not a comparison of prices, it's a comaprison of sizes - the Fuji X100 is not a pocketable camera. It's as meaningless as comparing the RX100 to an entry-level DSLR for the same price. What does that mean to someone wanting the best pocketable camera? Nothing at all.

anthony mazzeri Senior Member • Posts: 2,057
Re: Ricoh GRD4 vs. Sony DSC RX100

Cat pic!

One thing this larger sensor allows is a shallower depth of field. I believe at its most open f1.8 it's equivalent to f4.9 on a full frame. This pic is f2.2, so whatever that is on a full frame...

The low light performance seems to be good. As I keep mentioning, I'm restricted to JPGs only at this point so it has noise reduction and sharpening etc. I haven't read the manual yet to see if I can change the defult settings.

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