"Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

Started Aug 8, 2012 | Discussions
Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
Re: press correspondent,

Sorry, I don't have 5D2 to compare to be able to choose the images showing a difference. However, Peter has posted a number of them as a reference:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=41662357

And my favorite:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=41722749

salamander1 wrote:

on a more serious note. can you post some pictures, only one or two,
not too many, taken with your original 5D which you consider to be good
examples of it's color prowess so that we could have a reference point
for this discussion. it could turn out to be be an interesting thread. thanks.

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salamander1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,398
Re: press correspondent,

Press Correspondent wrote:

Sorry, I don't have 5D2 to compare to be able to choose the images showing a difference.

never mind, just post a couple of your 5D shots.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=41662357

And my favorite:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=41722749

sorry, these links don't work. the user was banned from the forum.

5Dc is well-known for natural sharpness due to weak AA filter (and FF sensor), creamy color rendition that especial noticeable in cloudy days on my experience.

this is interesting. i think this creamy little feature also applies to some
extent to the 5DIII. for example, here are two different images of the
same building. the first was made in overcast but clear conditions.
second was made around 6:00pm in the afternoon sunshine.
notice how smooth and creamy is the first photo and how the harshness
( of the building) increases in the second. i think the natural light makes
all the difference.

and two more examples...

overcast day

sunny day

Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,620
Magical" colors

Many years ago I compared 1dsmk2 and D2x and the internal color management, jpg.

Nikon was far ahead of Canon. Today it seems that Canon has improved a lot in terms of jpg and internal profiles in 5dmk3.

But at the same time Canon has a thinner CFA, resulting in lower color accuracy .

5dmk3 can very well render better jpg images because of better internal interpolation/processing.
In raw I've have not seen any difference between the 5dmk2 5dmk3
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RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,204
which software? jpg?

Using which RAW converter? ACR? DPP? Aperture? Each program will produce differnt colors. Or was the pro shooting jpg?

Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,620
Re: doubt it since the CFA array is even more color blind

true, at 2800K lights Canons CFA is better suited than Nikons with a steeper CFA

bronxbombers wrote:

allow perhaps it could be much more color blind in some areas while less in some others than might matter for certain subjects?

or maybe they are shooting with AWB and tricked by that?

i do notice in cam jpgs default to boosting saturation compared to the 5D2 for same settings so that might be tricking people perhaps

if they use ACR for all you know the defualt profile adobe cooked up for 5D3 is nicer than the one they made for 5D2 even if the RAW file is no better or even worse, who knows

it's tricky to say you'd need a complex test

Press Correspondent wrote:

I just came back from Siberia where a local pro told me this story. At first, wedding photographers there used 5D. When 5D2 was released, many switched to it, but got disappointed with its colors compared to 5D and switched back. Most of them still use 5D for better colors compared to 5D2.

5D3 is not yet widely available there, but the rumor among these guys is that the colors of 5D3 are closer to 5D than the colors of 5D2 were. Is this true? Is the "magic" of 5D back after skipping a generation? Or is this just a wishful thinking and the "magical" colors of old good large photocells are gone for good in the mist of time?

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pso Veteran Member • Posts: 3,017
I am definitely no expert but....

I have not enjoyed colors from my post processing as much as I did back in the days of:

5d + Capture One + Magne Nilsen profiles

Press Correspondent wrote:

bronxbombers wrote:

it's tricky to say you'd need a complex test

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Pak K So
'Enjoy your life, guy'

Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,620
Re: which software? jpg?

this is one of many parameters, as different profiles etc

RedFox88 wrote:

Using which RAW converter? ACR? DPP? Aperture? Each program will produce differnt colors. Or was the pro shooting jpg?

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Life is a battle wishes aunt Titti

Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
The links work fine

Just try again.

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Ogjetaknight Regular Member • Posts: 359
Re: Makes perfect sense to me :)

gdanmitchell wrote:

After a recent trip to Alpha Centauri I realized that I might have dreamed something about a person or other life form saying that he/it/she thought perhaps he/she/it had or possibly had not heard a rumor that the 5D (or was it something from Nikon?) has "better colors" (Alpha Centaurians love purple!) than something else that no one on Alpha Centauri has ever seen or used. But they photograph weddings! Yes, weddings! I like weddings!

What do you think? Doesn't this confirm what the little voices have been telling me? About cameras? And about Marie Antoinette and the big sunflower next to the talking fish? I think so, don't you!?

I like purple and weddings too! LOL!

Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

Peter 13 wrote:

Mikael Risedal wrote:

it's actually a difference in the CFA and profiles between 5 d and 5dmk2, especially when it comes to shades of red and orange.

According to DXO, the 5D3 is even worse. ???

Not in the color depth, but only in DR, which in fact may be an indication of the new color filters being thikker, but not thinner as everyone thought.

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Peter 13 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,301
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

Press Correspondent wrote:

Peter 13 wrote:

Mikael Risedal wrote:

it's actually a difference in the CFA and profiles between 5 d and 5dmk2, especially when it comes to shades of red and orange.

According to DXO, the 5D3 is even worse. ???

Not in the color depth, but only in DR, which in fact may be an indication of the new color filters being thikker, but not thinner as everyone thought.

It is worse in color sensitivity, less pure blue channel.

Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
No one can answer???

Is 5D3 closer to 5D in colors than 5D2 was to 5D?

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EOSHQ
EOSHQ Junior Member • Posts: 33
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

ISO 100 sRGB

average "delta-C" color error (saturation corrected, lower is better)
5D 4.98
5DII 3.94
5DIII 3.92

Saturation error:
5D 108.5% (8.5% over saturated)
5DII 105.3%
5DIII 111.4%

This means is that none of these 5D series cameras render colors exactly alike. The 5DIII is slightly more hue accurate while being slightly over saturated compared to the two previous models.

Curiously the average "delta-C" color error of the 5DIII is slightly better at ISO 200, 400 and 800 than at ISO 100.

5DIII average "delta-C" color error
ISO 100=3.92
ISO 200=3.78
ISO 400=3.77
ISO 800=3.80
ISO 1600=3.99

Press Correspondent wrote:

I just came back from Siberia where a local pro told me this story. At first, wedding photographers there used 5D. When 5D2 was released, many switched to it, but got disappointed with its colors compared to 5D and switched back. Most of them still use 5D for better colors compared to 5D2.

5D3 is not yet widely available there, but the rumor among these guys is that the colors of 5D3 are closer to 5D than the colors of 5D2 were. Is this true? Is the "magic" of 5D back after skipping a generation? Or is this just a wishful thinking and the "magical" colors of old good large photocells are gone for good in the mist of time?

PhilPreston3072 Senior Member • Posts: 2,553
Re: No one can answer???

Press Correspondent wrote:

Is 5D3 closer to 5D in colors than 5D2 was to 5D?

Are you referring to Raw output or Jpeg output? You'll need to specify which software you used if you're referring to Raw.

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gdanmitchell
gdanmitchell Veteran Member • Posts: 7,730
Re: 5d I magic

marcio_napoli wrote:

Sorry Dan, you're just playing the blind one.

No, I'm not blind, literally or metaphorically.

So yes, I can imagine why people refer to the original 5D as being "magic", and I can also imagine why that's gone (in part, at least).

Indeed. There is a whole lot of "imagining" going on when this sort of subject comes up.

Dan

gdanmitchell
gdanmitchell Veteran Member • Posts: 7,730
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

I posted a specific answer to the general phenomenon of people believing that the newest camera always loses some "magic" by comparison to the older camera.

This is an odd phenomenon among a small subset of photographers. (It also afflicts a few in other fields in which equipment fetishes often distract from the things that the equipment is there to do.) I chalk it up to several causes:

  • Some who own the older thing and can't or need an excuse to not get the newer one, convince themselves that the older things is not only fine (which it probably actually is) but that it is somehow functionally or even "magically" better than the newer thing.

  • Some who are looking to "magic" to make themselves better photographers find it by adopting odd points of view that are often just wrong, virtually always unprovable either logically or by testing, and which attribute specialness to certain processes or types of gear. Part of the affliction usually involves the invocation of essentially "religious" arguments, including the notion that those who don't see the "specialness" (which includes almost everyone) must simply be unable to perceive the special wonderfulness that the believers alone can see. Looked at objectively, this resembles certain types of cult behavior.

I heard this silliness about the 5D compared to the 5D2. I shot the 5D for something like three years, exposing tens of thousands of frames with mine. It was (and is... I still have it) a fine camera capable of producing excellent image quality, though there was absolutely nothing at all about it that resembles "magic." Since then I've shot the 5D2 for something like 3 1/2 years, exposing a comparable or slightly larger number of frames. It, too, is an excellent camera and can produce excellent image quality that in every way matches or exceeds that of the 5D. By all indications, the 5D3 is also an excellent camera that, yet again, improves on the previous model in the 5-series line - though by a very small increment when it comes to image quality.

If you expect most serious photographers to give any more credible response to a question like yours - the context and the actual question itself - you will likely be disappointed. You will and have get responses from folks who are gear-o-philes and forumtographers , but the circular argument you'll engage in will be utterly pointless.

Dan

Press Correspondent wrote:

gdanmitchell wrote:

After a recent trip to Alpha Centauri I realized that I might have dreamed something about a person or other life form saying that he/it/she thought perhaps he/she/it had or possibly had not heard a rumor that the 5D (or was it something from Nikon?) has "better colors" (Alpha Centaurians love purple!) than something else that no one on Alpha Centauri has ever seen or used. But they photograph weddings! Yes, weddings! I like weddings!

What do you think? Doesn't this confirm what the little voices have been telling me? About cameras? And about Marie Antoinette and the big sunflower next to the talking fish? I think so, don't you!?

I assume you intended this to sound amusing, but I had asked a specific and serious question. If you have a specific answer, then let's hear it. For example, you do not believe the colors of 5D were superior to 5D2. Fine, it is an opinion shared by many. But as far as the stand up comedy, please first wait for me to catch up on beer tonight

Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
Re: No one can answer???

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

Press Correspondent wrote:

Is 5D3 closer to 5D in colors than 5D2 was to 5D?

Are you referring to Raw output or Jpeg output? You'll need to specify which software you used if you're referring to Raw.

Referring to Raw with the same converter for all 3 models.

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henrikbengtsson Contributing Member • Posts: 665
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

I have heard the same - that the 5D3 is closer to 5D in its "character" OOC.

I think it's a combination of a slightly more accurate colorbalance, different hues, improved filter and tweaked profiles - both JPG engine and RAW profiles in different software. In some situations the difference might be zero, however depending on light there might be bigger variations - or as many would put it: another "look-and-feel". That's why colorcharts and beerbottles are totally pointless in this area. You literally want the whole picture and in different situations.

It is important to understand that (with some exceptions) a sensor with its colorfilter (whatever brand and model) is unique and OFCOURSE the output will differ. Some will notice a difference, some will not. Some will like it, some will not. And perhaps most importantly...some will think it matters and some don't even care because there's so much planned in post anyway.

Personally, I think I prefer the old 5D OOC approach to colors - they FEEL a bit more lifelike to my eyes. But the 5D2 is so much better in all other areas so I don't mind the little extra tweak to get the hues where I want them.

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Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,620
Re: No one can answer???

And the same chosen profile? There is no difference what I can se. I will look up the exact same motif from 5dmk2 and 5dmk3, I will return

Press Correspondent wrote:

PhilPreston3072 wrote:

Press Correspondent wrote:

Is 5D3 closer to 5D in colors than 5D2 was to 5D?

Are you referring to Raw output or Jpeg output? You'll need to specify which software you used if you're referring to Raw.

Referring to Raw with the same converter for all 3 models.

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Life is a battle wishes aunt Titti

Victor Engel Forum Pro • Posts: 17,900
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

gdanmitchell wrote:

Mikael Risedal wrote:

Color accuracy has been reduced in the Canon with thinner CFA in each new model.
Color accuracy is therefore weaker around 5500K (day light)

Ah, yes, I knew it was coming. The "old camera is always better than the newer model" people are coming out of the shadows,

So that's how to get something out of the shadows with a Canon?

but now it is that the 5D and 5D2 were better than the 5D3. Never fear, when the 5D15 comes out, there will be folks swearing up and down that that 5D14 produced altogether magical colors and was far and away the better camera.

Maybe the 5D15 will be B&W.

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