"Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

Started Aug 8, 2012 | Discussions
Press Correspondent
Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
"Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

I just came back from Siberia where a local pro told me this story. At first, wedding photographers there used 5D. When 5D2 was released, many switched to it, but got disappointed with its colors compared to 5D and switched back. Most of them still use 5D for better colors compared to 5D2.

5D3 is not yet widely available there, but the rumor among these guys is that the colors of 5D3 are closer to 5D than the colors of 5D2 were. Is this true? Is the "magic" of 5D back after skipping a generation? Or is this just a wishful thinking and the "magical" colors of old good large photocells are gone for good in the mist of time?

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gdanmitchell
gdanmitchell Veteran Member • Posts: 7,730
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

Press Correspondent wrote:

I just came back from Siberia where a local pro told me this story. At first, wedding photographers there used 5D. When 5D2 was released, many switched to it, but got disappointed with its colors compared to 5D and switched back. Most of them still use 5D for better colors compared to 5D2.

5D3 is not yet widely available there, but the rumor among these guys is that the colors of 5D3 are closer to 5D than the colors of 5D2 were. Is this true? Is the "magic" of 5D back after skipping a generation? Or is this just a wishful thinking and the "magical" colors of old good large photocells are gone for good in the mist of time?

You're just tweaking us, right? A "local pro" from "Siberia" where the camera "is not yet widely available" told you some silliness based on a "rumor" about the colors from three versions of the 5D. And "magic." Right.

Boy, if it is good enough for Siberian wedding photographers who mostly haven't used it yet, then it must be true!

Dan

Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,623
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

it's actually a difference in the CFA and profiles between 5 d and 5dmk2, especially when it comes to shades of red and orange.

So the local pro from Siberia are right in a way and I can happily show the differences

gdanmitchell wrote:

Press Correspondent wrote:

I just came back from Siberia where a local pro told me this story. At first, wedding photographers there used 5D. When 5D2 was released, many switched to it, but got disappointed with its colors compared to 5D and switched back. Most of them still use 5D for better colors compared to 5D2.

5D3 is not yet widely available there, but the rumor among these guys is that the colors of 5D3 are closer to 5D than the colors of 5D2 were. Is this true? Is the "magic" of 5D back after skipping a generation? Or is this just a wishful thinking and the "magical" colors of old good large photocells are gone for good in the mist of time?

You're just tweaking us, right? A "local pro" from "Siberia" where the camera "is not yet widely available" told you some silliness based on a "rumor" about the colors from three versions of the 5D. And "magic." Right.

Boy, if it is good enough for Siberian wedding photographers who mostly haven't used it yet, then it must be true!

Dan

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Life is a battle wishes aunt Titti

aftab
aftab Forum Pro • Posts: 10,112
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?
 aftab's gear list:aftab's gear list
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gdanmitchell
gdanmitchell Veteran Member • Posts: 7,730
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

After a recent trip to Alpha Centauri I realized that I might have dreamed something about a person or other life form saying that he/it/she thought perhaps he/she/it had or possibly had not heard a rumor that the 5D (or was it something from Nikon?) has "better colors" (Alpha Centaurians love purple!) than something else that no one on Alpha Centauri has ever seen or used. But they photograph weddings! Yes, weddings! I like weddings!

What do you think? Doesn't this confirm what the little voices have been telling me? About cameras? And about Marie Antoinette and the big sunflower next to the talking fish? I think so, don't you!?

Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,623
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

Color accuracy has been reduced in the Canon with thinner CFA in each new model.
Color accuracy is therefore weaker around 5500K (day light)
--
Life is a battle wishes aunt Titti

gdanmitchell
gdanmitchell Veteran Member • Posts: 7,730
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

Mikael Risedal wrote:

Color accuracy has been reduced in the Canon with thinner CFA in each new model.
Color accuracy is therefore weaker around 5500K (day light)

Ah, yes, I knew it was coming. The "old camera is always better than the newer model" people are coming out of the shadows, but now it is that the 5D and 5D2 were better than the 5D3. Never fear, when the 5D15 comes out, there will be folks swearing up and down that that 5D14 produced altogether magical colors and was far and away the better camera.

It used to be that the 5D was better than the 5D2. Before that is was that 8 MP was better than 12MP. Before that there were those who were certain that 4MP was better than 6MP, and I actually recall folks extolling the wonderful virtues of 1MP cameras over those new fangled 2MP models.

And, wow, considering the continuous downward spiral in the quality of cameras that must be happening each time a new model comes out, if five or ten years camera will be just plain unusable...

Funny.

Dan

marcio_napoli Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
5d I magic

Sorry Dan, you're just playing the blind one.

Yes, it's very reasonable to say color accuracy or color "quality" has dropped on the later models.

It's not a phenomenon restricted to 5Ds mark whatever.

It's a closely observed phenomenon on many different cameras, from many different makers.

Past models had terrible High ISO noise, a fact no one denies.

I'll list some models that had extremely fragile noise performance, but were loudly acclaimed for their colors right OOC:

M8, D200, D2X, 5D I, 1Ds II, to name just a few.

A side note:

When Nikon finally got it right with its noise performance on the later models, Nikonians also noticed it was getting "harder" to get great colors.

A lot more tweaking in post was demanded.

Along with all others improvements in sensor design, sensors are now designed with weaker and weaker CFAs after every new generation, to allow more transmission of light to the photosites.

That's why they perform better on the noise charts, but many photographers noticed the so called "magic" is gone, on so many different camera models.

This actually happens even among DMF backs.

I shoot with a Leaf Aptus 22 back, and that sports a very old Dalsa CCD sensor.

A very old sensor, which has really low sensitivity (base ISO 25 and tops at ISO 400).

But many photographers claim this old generation of Digital backs also had a distinct "magic", that is already gone on the newer backs.

Judging by the quality of colors I get with this back, I can only presume this so called "magic" comes from extremely thick CFAs, from a time when noise charts and marketing claims did not command the sensor design process.

So yes, I can imagine why people refer to the original 5D as being "magic", and I can also imagine why that's gone (in part, at least).

Of course, YMMV.

-- hide signature --

Marcio Napoli

marcio_napoli Senior Member • Posts: 1,418
Re: 5d I magic

Sorry, I just wanted to add, as it's relevant.

If you want the most obvious example, that should be the Leica M9.

The standard M9, with CFA, is limited to a noisy ISO 2500.

The monochrome version of the same camera (same sensor, but with the CFA removed), is now expanded to ISO 10.000

So that leaves us with the undeniable conclusion: thicker CFA is needed to achieve better color performance, at the cost of noise performance.

Among all recent sensor design advances, makers are also reducing CFA strengh, in order to reach the ISO 200k mark.

And they will continue to proceed this way, as it's way easier to spot noise, than it is to notice decreased color performance.

And good marketing is all about scoring better on noise charts, so you imagine what it's coming...

-- hide signature --

Marcio Napoli

salamander1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,424
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

5D3 is not yet widely available there, but the rumor among these guys is that the colors of 5D3 are closer to 5D than the colors of 5D2 were. Is this true? Is the "magic" of 5D back after skipping a generation?

in my opinion, yes, the magic is back. at least it's back for me. can't complain.
i mean, take a look at the true night colors i was able to capture one
evening as i was going to a dinner party at this hotel. the car, the building,
everything is is presented in their genuine tones, undertones,
colors, shades and saturation. wb is set manually to tungsten. can't complain.

Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

gdanmitchell wrote:

Press Correspondent wrote:

I just came back from Siberia where a local pro told me this story. At first, wedding photographers there used 5D. When 5D2 was released, many switched to it, but got disappointed with its colors compared to 5D and switched back. Most of them still use 5D for better colors compared to 5D2.

5D3 is not yet widely available there, but the rumor among these guys is that the colors of 5D3 are closer to 5D than the colors of 5D2 were. Is this true? Is the "magic" of 5D back after skipping a generation? Or is this just a wishful thinking and the "magical" colors of old good large photocells are gone for good in the mist of time?

You're just tweaking us, right? A "local pro" from "Siberia" where the camera "is not yet widely available" told you some silliness based on a "rumor" about the colors from three versions of the 5D. And "magic." Right.

Boy, if it is good enough for Siberian wedding photographers who mostly haven't used it yet, then it must be true!

No Sir, not at all. I honestly conveyed exactly what I had heard. Let me clarify one point. 5D3 is available there for sale in major centers, but is more expensive. For example, a kit with 24-105 is around $5k. A wedding pro gets $1k gross per wedding there that besides a 12-hour day with an assistant includes printing and everything leaving little for net profit. So not many can yet afford 5D3 and only pass the "rumor" from a few who actually have the new model.

 Press Correspondent's gear list:Press Correspondent's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM Canon EF 70-200mm F4L USM +11 more
Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

gdanmitchell wrote:

After a recent trip to Alpha Centauri I realized that I might have dreamed something about a person or other life form saying that he/it/she thought perhaps he/she/it had or possibly had not heard a rumor that the 5D (or was it something from Nikon?) has "better colors" (Alpha Centaurians love purple!) than something else that no one on Alpha Centauri has ever seen or used. But they photograph weddings! Yes, weddings! I like weddings!

What do you think? Doesn't this confirm what the little voices have been telling me? About cameras? And about Marie Antoinette and the big sunflower next to the talking fish? I think so, don't you!?

I assume you intended this to sound amusing, but I had asked a specific and serious question. If you have a specific answer, then let's hear it. For example, you do not believe the colors of 5D were superior to 5D2. Fine, it is an opinion shared by many. But as far as the stand up comedy, please first wait for me to catch up on beer tonight

 Press Correspondent's gear list:Press Correspondent's gear list
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Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
Clarification?

Sorry, your two replies seem contradictory. Can you clarify if you think the colors of 5D3 are better (closer to 5D) or worse than 5D2?

 Press Correspondent's gear list:Press Correspondent's gear list
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Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?
 Press Correspondent's gear list:Press Correspondent's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM Canon EF 70-200mm F4L USM +11 more
BillCat Contributing Member • Posts: 954
Agree that I like the 5D1 betterthan the 5D2

But I can't form an opinion on the 5D3 yet. I'm sticking with the 5D2 for now. I got the 5D2 for the video and other features.

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-Bill

Peter 13 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,301
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

Mikael Risedal wrote:

it's actually a difference in the CFA and profiles between 5 d and 5dmk2, especially when it comes to shades of red and orange.

According to DXO, the 5D3 is even worse. ???

salamander1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,424
press correspondent,

on a more serious note. can you post some pictures, only one or two,
not too many, taken with your original 5D which you consider to be good
examples of it's color prowess so that we could have a reference point
for this discussion. it could turn out to be be an interesting thread. thanks.

bronxbombers Forum Pro • Posts: 18,226
doubt it since the CFA array is even more color blind

allow perhaps it could be much more color blind in some areas while less in some others than might matter for certain subjects?

or maybe they are shooting with AWB and tricked by that?

i do notice in cam jpgs default to boosting saturation compared to the 5D2 for same settings so that might be tricking people perhaps

if they use ACR for all you know the defualt profile adobe cooked up for 5D3 is nicer than the one they made for 5D2 even if the RAW file is no better or even worse, who knows

it's tricky to say you'd need a complex test

Press Correspondent wrote:

I just came back from Siberia where a local pro told me this story. At first, wedding photographers there used 5D. When 5D2 was released, many switched to it, but got disappointed with its colors compared to 5D and switched back. Most of them still use 5D for better colors compared to 5D2.

5D3 is not yet widely available there, but the rumor among these guys is that the colors of 5D3 are closer to 5D than the colors of 5D2 were. Is this true? Is the "magic" of 5D back after skipping a generation? Or is this just a wishful thinking and the "magical" colors of old good large photocells are gone for good in the mist of time?

bronxbombers Forum Pro • Posts: 18,226
Re: "Magical" colors: is 5D3 closer to 5D than 5D2 was?

well you can't deny that the new CFA does make it more color blind

that hardly means the whole camera is worse though, come on

gdanmitchell wrote:

Mikael Risedal wrote:

Color accuracy has been reduced in the Canon with thinner CFA in each new model.
Color accuracy is therefore weaker around 5500K (day light)

Ah, yes, I knew it was coming. The "old camera is always better than the newer model" people are coming out of the shadows, but now it is that the 5D and 5D2 were better than the 5D3. Never fear, when the 5D15 comes out, there will be folks swearing up and down that that 5D14 produced altogether magical colors and was far and away the better camera.

It used to be that the 5D was better than the 5D2. Before that is was that 8 MP was better than 12MP. Before that there were those who were certain that 4MP was better than 6MP, and I actually recall folks extolling the wonderful virtues of 1MP cameras over those new fangled 2MP models.

And, wow, considering the continuous downward spiral in the quality of cameras that must be happening each time a new model comes out, if five or ten years camera will be just plain unusable...

Funny.

Dan

Press Correspondent
OP Press Correspondent Veteran Member • Posts: 3,345
This is exactly what we have Mikael Risedal for

bronxbombers wrote:

it's tricky to say you'd need a complex test

 Press Correspondent's gear list:Press Correspondent's gear list
Olympus XZ-1 Canon EOS 5D Mark III Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM Canon EF 70-200mm F4L USM +11 more
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