$700 fix

Started Jun 8, 2012 | Discussions
Trevor G Veteran Member • Posts: 6,576
Fuji aren't checking purchase invoices for X10 sensor replacement

Photozopia wrote:

Seem to have missed the point here. Camera was purchased from original, first, owner - not Fuji itself. No-one is obliged to service second-user equipment based on traditional non-transferable warranty terms.

You seem to have missed the point also!

Fuji are currently receiving X10s for sensor replacement and, sensibly, not asking for purchase invoices or even purchase details (such as country of origin).

When I told the Australian service person that my X10 was purchased in the USA he was not interested - and when I filled in the service form there was no requirement for an invoice at POP.

Why?

Because the warranty is on the product, not on the sales system or even the customer. What a ludicrous thought that a manufacturer is no longer responsible for faulty or shoddy workmanship or design, just because the camera has changed hands!

Get a grip on reality, my friend - the quality of manufacture (and thus the warranty) does NOT depend on who the end-user is!

Reselling a camera does not make it more likely to fail. Reselling a camera does not change the quality of manufacture or design. That is what the warranty covers, and no manufacturer's warranty should be able to be invalidated by anything other than abuse.

Selling a camera would hardly be described as abusive treatment, would it??

Perhaps you and mr moonlight could get your trumpets serviced (they are both blowing some wrong notes at the moment) at the same music store and get a group discount...

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Cheers

Trevor G

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dnercesian Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: $700 fix

kevin camera wrote:

dnercesian wrote:

No matter where you sell your product, it's your product. Stand by it, or be known as a company that does not stand by their products. In terms of marketing and publicity, a field in which I know a bit about, I can tell you that it only takes a few people saying something bad, true or not, to brand a scarlet letter.

well, from fuji's perspective i think one of the biggest issues they have (or any camera vendor, for that matter) is the "shipping and handling" of their products when cameras are bought outside of their designated country. (hence, grey market products)

cameras are priced higher in japan than its adjacent countries and consumers often by from outside of japan to save money and also the potential local sales tax.

while it does have fuji's name on it, fuji does not endorsed their products to be shipped across the borders in an uncontrolled way. trust me. uncontrolled shipping CAN damage goods.

could shipping cause sticky blades? probably not. but fuji definitely wants to filter out all possibilities of goods that could be damaged AFTER it left the dealer and BEFORE it got to a buyer

Interestingly enough, from the above quoted post, the most alarming and thus memorable words that ring out are, "Fuji does not endorse their products..." From a consumer's prospective, it really doesn't matter what words come before or after that. Sure, it has to be within REASON, but where does that REASON begin and end?

Okay, if Fuji won't repair an x100 after you take it for a swim or dribble it like a basketball, I'd say that is within REASON. Having purchased it from a 1st user with no signs or proof of any abuse whatsoever, and with a known issue that took place at the hands of the manufacturer, well, that falls outside REASON for me.

It is a Fuji product.

It has a known manufacturer's defect.

A manufacturer stands by it 100% or they do not. No exception, no excuses.

I find it a bit suspect when I hear people telling others that they need to own up to being cheapskates, buying used from eBay, and getting what they deserve, so to speak, while letting a big company that produced the equipment that is causing the issue completely off the hook for their liability.

Warranties only protect you legally. That is all. Period. End of story. They take away some LEGAL liability. They do not take bad policy and make it right. They do not take poor customer service and make it right. They do not take a guy with a busted camera and make him think, "Oh, we'll I feel better now." Sure he may learn a lesson regarding purchasing, but you can bet his next camera won't be a Fuji.

The service business is a byproduct of Fuji's main purpose, which is to create a revenue stream based on the sale of products. Fuji makes a great product, but they are not alone and they are not so far departed from their competition that they can afford to turn people's business away, or better yet, scare it away.

Also, consider that the money saved by the buyer in purchasing used may have been the difference between them buying a Sony or an Olympus, or whatever. The seller is passing the camera on to someone intent on using it, thus keeping the product is circulation, in use, in the public eye, talked about with pictures and experiences shared in public forums or amongst friends and family. Seems more beneficial to Fuji than shelving it as a paperweight because you can't sell it for a deal online. Out of sight, out of mind, where it may just stay.

Keep in mind this is all from a really happy XP1 user. I am a little bummed because I really was going to buy an X100, but not anymore. If you are hearing that from an already happy XP1 owner, then you can imagine how Fuji's decision will effect so many others. Look at how quickly the XP1 got a bad reputation for AF, all because a few people said so...

kevin camera Junior Member • Posts: 42
Re: $700 fix

dnercesian wrote:

Interestingly enough, from the above quoted post, the most alarming and thus memorable words that ring out are, "Fuji does not endorse their products..." From a consumer's prospective, it really doesn't matter what words come before or after that. Sure, it has to be within REASON, but where does that REASON begin and end?

nicely done by choosing words from my reply then pulling it out of it's context. and for the record, the words after it do matter -- it's a difference between whether the product could have had the potential to be damaged by a third party.

Okay, if Fuji won't repair an x100 after you take it for a swim or dribble it like a basketball, I'd say that is within REASON. Having purchased it from a 1st user with no signs or proof of any abuse whatsoever, and with a known issue that took place at the hands of the manufacturer, well, that falls outside REASON for me.

this is the exact reason for voiding warranty on grey market in the first place. it's purpose is to filter out those who have the potential to mishandle products before they land in the hands of the customers (with poor packaging during delivery, yes, your X100 will dribble like a basketball).

and yes, handling requests from those who purchased from the grey market will take away the service level from fuji's registered customers -- those purchased from authorized dealers and who are required to followed policies to adhere to the local taxes/duties laws in their region.

and yes, it would be nice if fuji can service the grey market, but they won't. neither will any other camera maker, or any company out there.

and no, fuji will not be losing customers over this. neither will nikon lose customers over exploding d800 sensors, nor canon's 5DMK3 light leak problem.

dnercesian Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: $700 fix

kevin camera wrote:

dnercesian wrote:

Interestingly enough, from the above quoted post, the most alarming and thus memorable words that ring out are, "Fuji does not endorse their products..." From a consumer's prospective, it really doesn't matter what words come before or after that. Sure, it has to be within REASON, but where does that REASON begin and end?

nicely done by choosing words from my reply then pulling it out of it's context. and for the record, the words after it do matter -- it's a difference between whether the product could have had the potential to be damaged by a third party.

Okay, if Fuji won't repair an x100 after you take it for a swim or dribble it like a basketball, I'd say that is within REASON. Having purchased it from a 1st user with no signs or proof of any abuse whatsoever, and with a known issue that took place at the hands of the manufacturer, well, that falls outside REASON for me.

this is the exact reason for voiding warranty on grey market in the first place. it's purpose is to filter out those who have the potential to mishandle products before they land in the hands of the customers (with poor packaging during delivery, yes, your X100 will dribble like a basketball).

and yes, handling requests from those who purchased from the grey market will take away the service level from fuji's registered customers -- those purchased from authorized dealers and who are required to followed policies to adhere to the local taxes/duties laws in their region.

and yes, it would be nice if fuji can service the grey market, but they won't. neither will any other camera maker, or any company out there.

and no, fuji will not be losing customers over this. neither will nikon lose customers over exploding d800 sensors, nor canon's 5DMK3 light leak problem.

I did not selectively misquote you to pull you out of context. I was making a point about how small a portion of the situation most consumers will actually find useful to their decision making process. That's why you'll never hear Fuji actually put it the way you did, although it is effectively the same thing.

By the way, repeatedly using the argument that they are trying to filter out potential blah blah blah... That is so transparent in its pure denial of the fact that this is dealing with a KNOWN FACTORY DEFECT and does not even touch on the subject of mishandeling or abuse.

By the way, I think I read that Olympus has an international warrantee policy, but I have not yet looked into it. All that aside, before you go on making nostradamus like predictions regarding consumer habits, note that the person you are having the conversation with has already decided not to buy the x100 because of the policy. Could I be the only one in the world?

Nikon and Canon will have to sort that stuff out for themselves as these are new cameras and new issues. The x100 has a well established, many would say recall worthy, FACTORY DEFECT.

I am a huge fan of my Fuji X Pro 1, but I still have to look at this objectively, which is what makes the difference between a fan and a fanboy.

Making a decision not to do good on your own mistake simply because of where your product was purchased is a cop out and is irresponsible. People asking premium prices on what are meant to be premium products should know that and hold themselves to a higher standard rather than putting it off on consumers who they can better benefit from by making them life long customers.

Spitting on the dinner table is rude and worthy of an apology, whether you do it in your house or someone else's.

DRabbit
DRabbit Veteran Member • Posts: 4,724
Re: $700 fix

jameshays wrote:

That's really what I meant, a service bulletin type of response. I wasn't aware of what grey market was until I called Fuji. From my vantage point I just bought a used camera from someone that had very little use. Regardless of where it's from, it's still a Fuji product that has a (now)well known manufacturing flaw.

Have a proof of purchase from a legal/authorized source, and it's fixed. That's all that's required. When you buy used, you take a risk. You bought used, so you have no expressed warranty or agreement with Fuji.

If Ford knows it has faulty alternators in a specific model/year truck, it should (and does) fix them, again doesn't matter where you bought it or if you are the original owner.

Ford (nor any manufacturer) is required to do it endlessly. Let's say they issue a recall on a 2010 alternator. That doesn't mean they'll keep replacing them for 10 years free of charge. And once you're out of warranty, it won't fix issues from service bulletins free of charge either.

Each company draws its own line in the sand of how or when the cut-off will take place. Fuji wants a valid proof of purchase. It's not unreasonable.

I have always assumed risk when buying used gear, that just comes with the territory. You do your research, look at photos of the item, talk to the seller, and make a decision. In all the years of buying used equipment, I have never been burned, and now the first time has nothing to do with the seller! I was not aware of this extra risk (the sticky blade issue) until after I started to have problems. Of course I might have approached a purchase differently if I did, but I really don't think it should be my fault I wasn't aware of an inherent manufacturing problem.

You say it has nothing to do with the seller, but it's quite possible the seller lied to you about the camera having the issue (hence why he was selling?)... and if he's not willing to give you a copy of his original receipt (if he is the original buyer), then again, it has something to do with him. That's all you need to get it fixed by Fuji. You say you assume the risk of buying used, but then are mad that the risk turned into reality? That doesn't make much sense.

Amy
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DRabbit
DRabbit Veteran Member • Posts: 4,724
Re: $700 fix

Great explanation Devwild!

devwild wrote:

starwolfy wrote:

Indeed...what's wrong with grey market cameras?
They are the same made by Fuji.

At the most benign to the user, grey market costs manufacturers money because it messes with their regional sales and allotments, and vendors use it to buy in markets with lower currency value and sell in higher, at prices lower than regional retail can sustain.

More to the point of the customer though, a lot of grey market vendors right now are selling open box items - either returns or box sets that they part out to get more money. Sometimes they replace accessories with counterfeit parts and re-seal the package to make it appear as new. That's the more practical reason that it's a blurry line to provide warranty support to a grey market item - you can't guarantee it's origin or treatment, or whether it's been used with substandard accessories that could have caused damage.

In any case, the bottom line is that they want to discourage grey market sales to maintain their official supply chain - both for financial and support reasons. Whether the malfunction is their fault doesn't matter to them at that point, because if they do offer to fix it, people will keep buying their gear that way.

As for the original poster's idea of a recall... the only reason Toyota, Dell, HP, etc. have extended warranties in the past few years to any item regardless of origin is because the item in question (battery, brakes) poses a real risk to someone's well-being. If it was the radio breaking down or a faulty keyboard you wouldn't have seen that - in fact you don't, the Dell Optiplexes had wide-spread power supply failures for example, but that wasn't a recall issue because they just died outright.

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DRabbit
DRabbit Veteran Member • Posts: 4,724
Re: $700 fix

TBert wrote:

I am an attorney and faxed Fuji a letter telling them that my 1 yr. warranty had just expired and since the sticky blade issue was well documented what would happen if it occurred after the warranty expired. I do not have the problem but I probably have only taken about 600 images during the year since I don't have as much time for photography as most owners.

They responded that the problem should occur within a few months of the purchase and if it happens after warranty expires it is not covered.

I told them if I got the problem I would pay to have it repaired and then see them in small claims court with plenty of material to show that it is a known defect.

Bunch of BS

So you're looking for trouble? Geez man, nothing like helping the overall reputation of lawyers here...

Dude, why not chill out and just enjoy the camera. Or maybe even do a little research before you go rambling on about small claims court. Several people have already attested to having their x100 SAB issue fixed out-of-warranty, me being one of them. And I bought mine used from an authorized reseller (not flea-bay).

So there isn't a bunch of BS going on except for people who buy grey-market and/or don't have their proof of purchase. It has nothing to do with their warranty.

Amy
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Aethon Regular Member • Posts: 320
Re: $700 fix
1

Fuji repairs hundreds of cameras outside warranty, across international borders and for owners who bought second and third-hand. Their staff are universally acclaimed for being polite, gracious and efficient.

They refuse to service one grey market.camera and suddenly they're the worst company in the world.

You people have lost your minds.

dnercesian wrote:

kevin camera wrote:

dnercesian wrote:

No matter where you sell your product, it's your product. Stand by it, or be known as a company that does not stand by their products. In terms of marketing and publicity, a field in which I know a bit about, I can tell you that it only takes a few people saying something bad, true or not, to brand a scarlet letter.

well, from fuji's perspective i think one of the biggest issues they have (or any camera vendor, for that matter) is the "shipping and handling" of their products when cameras are bought outside of their designated country. (hence, grey market products)

cameras are priced higher in japan than its adjacent countries and consumers often by from outside of japan to save money and also the potential local sales tax.

while it does have fuji's name on it, fuji does not endorsed their products to be shipped across the borders in an uncontrolled way. trust me. uncontrolled shipping CAN damage goods.

could shipping cause sticky blades? probably not. but fuji definitely wants to filter out all possibilities of goods that could be damaged AFTER it left the dealer and BEFORE it got to a buyer

Interestingly enough, from the above quoted post, the most alarming and thus memorable words that ring out are, "Fuji does not endorse their products..." From a consumer's prospective, it really doesn't matter what words come before or after that. Sure, it has to be within REASON, but where does that REASON begin and end?

Okay, if Fuji won't repair an x100 after you take it for a swim or dribble it like a basketball, I'd say that is within REASON. Having purchased it from a 1st user with no signs or proof of any abuse whatsoever, and with a known issue that took place at the hands of the manufacturer, well, that falls outside REASON for me.

It is a Fuji product.

It has a known manufacturer's defect.

A manufacturer stands by it 100% or they do not. No exception, no excuses.

I find it a bit suspect when I hear people telling others that they need to own up to being cheapskates, buying used from eBay, and getting what they deserve, so to speak, while letting a big company that produced the equipment that is causing the issue completely off the hook for their liability.

Warranties only protect you legally. That is all. Period. End of story. They take away some LEGAL liability. They do not take bad policy and make it right. They do not take poor customer service and make it right. They do not take a guy with a busted camera and make him think, "Oh, we'll I feel better now." Sure he may learn a lesson regarding purchasing, but you can bet his next camera won't be a Fuji.

The service business is a byproduct of Fuji's main purpose, which is to create a revenue stream based on the sale of products. Fuji makes a great product, but they are not alone and they are not so far departed from their competition that they can afford to turn people's business away, or better yet, scare it away.

Also, consider that the money saved by the buyer in purchasing used may have been the difference between them buying a Sony or an Olympus, or whatever. The seller is passing the camera on to someone intent on using it, thus keeping the product is circulation, in use, in the public eye, talked about with pictures and experiences shared in public forums or amongst friends and family. Seems more beneficial to Fuji than shelving it as a paperweight because you can't sell it for a deal online. Out of sight, out of mind, where it may just stay.

Keep in mind this is all from a really happy XP1 user. I am a little bummed because I really was going to buy an X100, but not anymore. If you are hearing that from an already happy XP1 owner, then you can imagine how Fuji's decision will effect so many others. Look at how quickly the XP1 got a bad reputation for AF, all because a few people said so...

DRabbit
DRabbit Veteran Member • Posts: 4,724
Re: $700 fix

jameshays wrote:

First, Fujifilm USA's warranty clearly states that it is non-transferable. So even if you had purchased an X100 with a US serial number, they're under no obligation to fix it once it leaves the original owner. And they were willing to overlook that in your case.

Again, not sure why I should be grateful Fuji is willing to fix a problem they created. p.s. only if you have appropriate paperwork..

You're being blind for the sake of it. He pointed out to you why Fuji went the extra mile, but at the end of the day, you still couldn't prove you legally obtained the camera.

Second, Fujifilm USA is under no obligation to repair grey market cameras, regardless of whether you're the original owner or not. Again, they were willing to overlook that in your case.

I was not aware of what a "grey market" camera was until now, and in this case it really shouldn't matter. If you make something that has a problem at the manufacture stage, you should fix it.

Ignorance isn't an excuse. You can say you didn't know the car was stolen and try to blame DMV all you want for not giving you a title -- at the end of the day it's still a stolen car and you still won't get a title.

All they asked is that you produce the original sales receipt, and you were unable to do that. It seems unreasonable to take them to task for being unwilling to provide warranty service to the second owner of a grey market camera who has no receipt for it.

I have purchased a great deal of used equipment over the years and don't have a single original receipt(or copy) from any of those transactions. It has never been something that has even come up.

You buy used, you take a risk. If you've been lucky to have no problem, good for you. But when risk turns to reality, well you got what you paid for.

Now, you're entitled to object to the above warranty "rules," though they are far more the norm than not. But if you do object, then don't buy a Fuji camera in the first place, as opposed to buying one and then being upset that they didn't alter the warranty rules to suit your circumstances.

Don't buy a Fuji in the first place? That has nothing to do with this. Again I go back to various automobile manufacturers. If they produce a product that has a known and repeatable problem that occurs at the manufacture stage, then they take care of it...no paperwork, no receipts, no warranty information. Just fix the flawed item you released.

I addressed this earlier in the thread. Automobile companies aren't going to fix your recall issue forever and ever and ever free of charge. That 2001 car won't be fixed for free, regardless of recall. Those service bulletin issues won't be addressed for free at all once you're out of warranty. ALL companies out there won't fix issues for free without some type of strings attached (be in time, or paperwork or something else).

If you buy a camera (new or used) and then it turns out that that specific model has a design flaw with the lcd screen, all bets are off. The camera manufacturer needs to fix it no questions asked and then lean on their part manufacturers to step up. Either way, this should not be any responsibility to the consumer.

No. Questions will be asked. How old is it? What's the nature of the repair (and cost)? Did it have an authorized warranty to begin with (i.e.., was it grey-market?)... Was it purchased legally (not stolen, or not in a grey-market situation). Was it repaired before? Fuji is already willing to entertain the idea of fixing your used, grey-market camera as long as you provide the original proof of purchase... and they are not at all obligated to even do so because it's used and grey-market. You can't provide that proof of purchase, so you're SOOL. That's a risk YOU took.

I am a professional photographer. If one of my clients 3 years later brings me back a print that is delaminating, I replace it immediately no questions asked. I then hit my pro lab and ask them to step up and help fix the problem. At no time do I tell my client it's their problem. Fuji should be doing the same here.

Don't compare a $20 print to a $700 lens assembly. Do a little research, and read some of the very informative replies on why grey-market cameras should not be covered and learn something... and realize that Fuji is trying to help you, but you've done nothing to help yourself.

You're recourse here is with EBay, Paypal and the seller. No one else.

Amy
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dnercesian Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: $700 fix

Aethon wrote:

Fuji repairs hundreds of cameras outside warranty, across international borders and for owners who bought second and third-hand. Their staff are universally acclaimed for being polite, gracious and efficient.

They refuse to service one grey market.camera and suddenly they're the worst company in the world.

You people have lost your minds.

dnercesian wrote:

kevin camera wrote:

dnercesian wrote:

No matter where you sell your product, it's your product. Stand by it, or be known as a company that does not stand by their products. In terms of marketing and publicity, a field in which I know a bit about, I can tell you that it only takes a few people saying something bad, true or not, to brand a scarlet letter.

well, from fuji's perspective i think one of the biggest issues they have (or any camera vendor, for that matter) is the "shipping and handling" of their products when cameras are bought outside of their designated country. (hence, grey market products)

cameras are priced higher in japan than its adjacent countries and consumers often by from outside of japan to save money and also the potential local sales tax.

while it does have fuji's name on it, fuji does not endorsed their products to be shipped across the borders in an uncontrolled way. trust me. uncontrolled shipping CAN damage goods.

could shipping cause sticky blades? probably not. but fuji definitely wants to filter out all possibilities of goods that could be damaged AFTER it left the dealer and BEFORE it got to a buyer

Interestingly enough, from the above quoted post, the most alarming and thus memorable words that ring out are, "Fuji does not endorse their products..." From a consumer's prospective, it really doesn't matter what words come before or after that. Sure, it has to be within REASON, but where does that REASON begin and end?

Okay, if Fuji won't repair an x100 after you take it for a swim or dribble it like a basketball, I'd say that is within REASON. Having purchased it from a 1st user with no signs or proof of any abuse whatsoever, and with a known issue that took place at the hands of the manufacturer, well, that falls outside REASON for me.

It is a Fuji product.

It has a known manufacturer's defect.

A manufacturer stands by it 100% or they do not. No exception, no excuses.

I find it a bit suspect when I hear people telling others that they need to own up to being cheapskates, buying used from eBay, and getting what they deserve, so to speak, while letting a big company that produced the equipment that is causing the issue completely off the hook for their liability.

Warranties only protect you legally. That is all. Period. End of story. They take away some LEGAL liability. They do not take bad policy and make it right. They do not take poor customer service and make it right. They do not take a guy with a busted camera and make him think, "Oh, we'll I feel better now." Sure he may learn a lesson regarding purchasing, but you can bet his next camera won't be a Fuji.

The service business is a byproduct of Fuji's main purpose, which is to create a revenue stream based on the sale of products. Fuji makes a great product, but they are not alone and they are not so far departed from their competition that they can afford to turn people's business away, or better yet, scare it away.

Also, consider that the money saved by the buyer in purchasing used may have been the difference between them buying a Sony or an Olympus, or whatever. The seller is passing the camera on to someone intent on using it, thus keeping the product is circulation, in use, in the public eye, talked about with pictures and experiences shared in public forums or amongst friends and family. Seems more beneficial to Fuji than shelving it as a paperweight because you can't sell it for a deal online. Out of sight, out of mind, where it may just stay.

Keep in mind this is all from a really happy XP1 user. I am a little bummed because I really was going to buy an X100, but not anymore. If you are hearing that from an already happy XP1 owner, then you can imagine how Fuji's decision will effect so many others. Look at how quickly the XP1 got a bad reputation for AF, all because a few people said so...

Interesting. Where did you read that they are the "worst company in the world", or even a bad company?

(unknown member) Forum Pro • Posts: 13,144
Re: $700 fix

DRabbit wrote:

jameshays wrote:

That's really what I meant, a service bulletin type of response. I wasn't aware of what grey market was until I called Fuji. From my vantage point I just bought a used camera from someone that had very little use. Regardless of where it's from, it's still a Fuji product that has a (now)well known manufacturing flaw.

Have a proof of purchase from a legal/authorized source, and it's fixed. That's all that's required. When you buy used, you take a risk. You bought used, so you have no expressed warranty or agreement with Fuji.

If Ford knows it has faulty alternators in a specific model/year truck, it should (and does) fix them, again doesn't matter where you bought it or if you are the original owner.

Ford (nor any manufacturer) is required to do it endlessly. Let's say they issue a recall on a 2010 alternator. That doesn't mean they'll keep replacing them for 10 years free of charge. And once you're out of warranty, it won't fix issues from service bulletins free of charge either.

If a manufacturing defect is identified by Ford and you bought your Ford Pinto from Uncle Bob, Ford will fix that car, even without a receipt.

Photozopia
Photozopia Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: $700 fix

Yes - so too, I've had Apple replace stuff 4 years old - out of warranty/applecare period - often with totally brand new items, no questions asked. Their decision/s. If you note - I only said it's Fuji's call - not a customers legal right to expect work for free.

I've argued both sides here - over a couple of similar/linked threads - giving consumer tips as well as outlining Fuji legal viewpoints ... but the issue remains: once the legal avenues and goodwill requests are exhausted, the fact is - the guy bought second-user - no getting away from it, no legal comeback - just moral debate.

Let's not forget - none of this is 'free' - Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Apple, etc. all pass the cost back via other consumers - that's you and me - in future product pricing.

A penny or so, added here and there to retail prices, is not noticed .... but would you buy a product if there was a chance they might contact you in a month or so and say " .... here's a bill for $700 bucks - didn't legally have to repair this guy's camera - but it now seems like a good idea to ask (randomly chosen) individual customers to stump up for the repairs rather than claw it back, penny by penny, over a few thousand units ...."

Totally unfair - right? You would be outraged and refuse to pay. But this is what manufacturers do every day of the week - covertly passing on their overheads to consumers. You and I pay for this stuff - we pay, if you like - for this guy's cheapo buying strategies. He wouldn't be here if his camera was working fine ....

jameshays wrote:

Photozopia wrote:

Quoted instances like Canon 'repairing' mirrors are two minute DIY-style tasks. Try getting them to swop-out a sensor unit on a battered, 15th user, EOS 1D (for free) and see what answer you get ....

Well, they replaced the AF assembly on my 1dmkiii and it was over two years old. I was the second owner and they did not ask for anything.

Photozopia
Photozopia Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: Fuji aren't checking purchase invoices for X10 sensor replacement

Fuji have acknowledged the X10 sensor issues as a known flaw. The SAB problem is not - occurring only in a limited amount of units. Simple as - if Fuji decide to repair warranty only models - and/or genuine cases, that's their prerogative. If you read the posts on this matter I've highlighted issues on both sides of the argument.

If you feel so incensed that you think Fuji should pay for all repairs - no matter how/when occurring, then why not set up a 'fighting fund' and contest them in court .... or simply institute a fund for unfortunate owners to dip into and insulate themselves against THEIR poor buying decisions.

This would seem eminently fair - as I state in my answer to another post (above) we - the consumers - will pay for ALL these non-warranty repairs in the long run .... so why not just cut out the middleman and give it to the guy with a broken camera if you are so worried about it?

Why is it anyone who attempts to clarify matters on DPR is immediately accused of 'taking sides'? Perhaps I should now pick up a trumpet for you - in order that you can best promote your 'camera repair' fund to all and sundry ...

Trevor G wrote:

Perhaps you and mr moonlight could get your trumpets serviced (they are both blowing some wrong notes at the moment) at the same music store and get a group discount...

Ross Murphy Senior Member • Posts: 1,968
Re: Fuji aren't checking purchase invoices for X10 sensor replacement

Regardless of which way you go on this matter its really bad PR for Fuji and makes me not want to buy one of their products
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mr moonlight Senior Member • Posts: 1,789
Re: $700 fix

Trevor G wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

You purchased a used grey market camera because you were able to get it for a substantially lower price than a new one or even a local used one with a receipt. With that lower price comes a certain amount of risk.

I assume that, by "grey market" you mean that this camera is not a genuine Fuji but is produced by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china. It's not a genuine Fuji camera, no?

Did I assume wrongly, and this camera is actually manufactured by Fuji in their normal process to the same high, exacting standards (gulp!) as all their other output?

Then, in that case, since the way in which the camera is sold, or even the market where it is sold, surely does not affect its potential longevity?

If it's a Fuji and it's faulty, it should get fixed for free - fair dinkum, fellow foto enthusiast.

You need to get your trumpet serviced - it seems to be blowing a few wrong notes at the moment.

Gray market is a product that was moved from it's intended region of sale to another. This happens because companies sell items at different prices based on household incomes, exchange rates, cost of doing business/marketing in that country. In some cases the price differences are quite large. So someone buys the items in the country where the items are cheaper then ships and resells them in another at a higher price but below retail. While this is completely legal, it is unauthorized and not regulated by the manufacturer. With Fuji being completely out of the loop in terms of distribution channels, there's no guarantee that gray market goods aren't repackaged returns, refurbs, used or even that they were shipped properly. They could have spent a month waiting to get through customs on a pallet in Miami sitting outside on a dock where air is salty, the temp is 100 degrees and the humidity is 95%.

Getting a camera from the factory to the hands of the consumer is all part of Fuji's business model and part of what makes up what a genuine Fuji camera is. That's the whole purpose of Fuji having authorized dealers. So while gray market X100's aren't knock-offs made "by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china", they are not genuine Fuji products and Fuji cannot be expected guarantee the quality of them. The only recourse Fuji has is to not support warranty claims on gray market cameras. Few companies do.

dnercesian Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: $700 fix

mr moonlight wrote:

Trevor G wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

You purchased a used grey market camera because you were able to get it for a substantially lower price than a new one or even a local used one with a receipt. With that lower price comes a certain amount of risk.

I assume that, by "grey market" you mean that this camera is not a genuine Fuji but is produced by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china. It's not a genuine Fuji camera, no?

Did I assume wrongly, and this camera is actually manufactured by Fuji in their normal process to the same high, exacting standards (gulp!) as all their other output?

Then, in that case, since the way in which the camera is sold, or even the market where it is sold, surely does not affect its potential longevity?

If it's a Fuji and it's faulty, it should get fixed for free - fair dinkum, fellow foto enthusiast.

You need to get your trumpet serviced - it seems to be blowing a few wrong notes at the moment.

Gray market is a product that was moved from it's intended region of sale to another. This happens because companies sell items at different prices based on household incomes, exchange rates, cost of doing business/marketing in that country. In some cases the price differences are quite large. So someone buys the items in the country where the items are cheaper then ships and resells them in another at a higher price but below retail. While this is completely legal, it is unauthorized and not regulated by the manufacturer. With Fuji being completely out of the loop in terms of distribution channels, there's no guarantee that gray market goods aren't repackaged returns, refurbs, used or even that they were shipped properly. They could have spent a month waiting to get through customs on a pallet in Miami sitting outside on a dock where air is salty, the temp is 100 degrees and the humidity is 95%.

Getting a camera from the factory to the hands of the consumer is all part of Fuji's business model and part of what makes up what a genuine Fuji camera is. That's the whole purpose of Fuji having authorized dealers. So while gray market X100's aren't knock-offs made "by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china", they are not genuine Fuji products and Fuji cannot be expected guarantee the quality of them. The only recourse Fuji has is to not support warranty claims on gray market cameras. Few companies do.

That is a great explanation! Now, if you could get the average 21st century internet consumer to go ahead and let this explanation restore their confidence in the fact that Fuji stands by their product, then you've really got something, and perhaps Fuji should pay you the big bucks for PR and damage control.

Sarcasm aside, that is just not how individuals and groups, especially of the internet age, process information. Sociology 101.

This is a futile conversation. When I read repeatedly all the different scenarios that people come up with rather than just admitting the SAB problem is a factory defect, caused by the factory, I have to just shake my head. Your argument is agenda based. You love Fuji, yes, we all get it. Heck, I love my XP1. You can love a company or a product and still hold people there accountable for their mistakes rather than passing them off onto the end user.

DRabbit
DRabbit Veteran Member • Posts: 4,724
calling BS

rattymouse wrote:

If a manufacturing defect is identified by Ford and you bought your Ford Pinto from Uncle Bob, Ford will fix that car, even without a receipt.

Prove it.

The only way they'll do it for free is if it's a recall related to SAFETY (and even then, probably not LOL). They aren't going to fix Uncle Bob's 1977 Pinto free of charge under even a recall, and they aren't obligated to. Give it a rest. And if it was just a service bulletin item, it would NEVER be fixed free of charge unless still in warranty (which it wouldn't be).

And let's be clear here. There was NO RECALL on the x100.

Amy
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mr moonlight Senior Member • Posts: 1,789
Re: $700 fix

dnercesian wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

Trevor G wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

You purchased a used grey market camera because you were able to get it for a substantially lower price than a new one or even a local used one with a receipt. With that lower price comes a certain amount of risk.

I assume that, by "grey market" you mean that this camera is not a genuine Fuji but is produced by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china. It's not a genuine Fuji camera, no?

Did I assume wrongly, and this camera is actually manufactured by Fuji in their normal process to the same high, exacting standards (gulp!) as all their other output?

Then, in that case, since the way in which the camera is sold, or even the market where it is sold, surely does not affect its potential longevity?

If it's a Fuji and it's faulty, it should get fixed for free - fair dinkum, fellow foto enthusiast.

You need to get your trumpet serviced - it seems to be blowing a few wrong notes at the moment.

Gray market is a product that was moved from it's intended region of sale to another. This happens because companies sell items at different prices based on household incomes, exchange rates, cost of doing business/marketing in that country. In some cases the price differences are quite large. So someone buys the items in the country where the items are cheaper then ships and resells them in another at a higher price but below retail. While this is completely legal, it is unauthorized and not regulated by the manufacturer. With Fuji being completely out of the loop in terms of distribution channels, there's no guarantee that gray market goods aren't repackaged returns, refurbs, used or even that they were shipped properly. They could have spent a month waiting to get through customs on a pallet in Miami sitting outside on a dock where air is salty, the temp is 100 degrees and the humidity is 95%.

Getting a camera from the factory to the hands of the consumer is all part of Fuji's business model and part of what makes up what a genuine Fuji camera is. That's the whole purpose of Fuji having authorized dealers. So while gray market X100's aren't knock-offs made "by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china", they are not genuine Fuji products and Fuji cannot be expected guarantee the quality of them. The only recourse Fuji has is to not support warranty claims on gray market cameras. Few companies do.

That is a great explanation! Now, if you could get the average 21st century internet consumer to go ahead and let this explanation restore their confidence in the fact that Fuji stands by their product, then you've really got something, and perhaps Fuji should pay you the big bucks for PR and damage control.

Sarcasm aside, that is just not how individuals and groups, especially of the internet age, process information. Sociology 101.

This is a futile conversation. When I read repeatedly all the different scenarios that people come up with rather than just admitting the SAB problem is a factory defect, caused by the factory, I have to just shake my head. Your argument is agenda based. You love Fuji, yes, we all get it. Heck, I love my XP1. You can love a company or a product and still hold people there accountable for their mistakes rather than passing them off onto the end user.

It's not really about loving Fuji. Gray market camera sales negatively impact Fuji's bottom line and that in turn negatively impacts us as consumers in the form of higher prices, less R&D and longer waits between models. Supporting Gray market cameras in any way is contradictory to Fuji's business model as it is with most companies. While I sympathize with the end user, I have to also keep in mind that both them and Fuji got screwed by some shady seller on Ebay who's selling "factory fresh X100's, with warranty cards". If Fuji repairs the camera they are getting screwed a second time and also screwing themselves in the long run by making people feel comfortable with buying gray market cameras. If I have a personal agenda if any, it's that I want an X200 and in the future and Xpro-2 sooner than later without a huge price hike.

One thing for sure, the OP as well as many others who read through this thread will from now on avoid buying gray market cameras like the plague.

dnercesian Contributing Member • Posts: 560
Re: $700 fix

mr moonlight wrote:

dnercesian wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

Trevor G wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

You purchased a used grey market camera because you were able to get it for a substantially lower price than a new one or even a local used one with a receipt. With that lower price comes a certain amount of risk.

I assume that, by "grey market" you mean that this camera is not a genuine Fuji but is produced by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china. It's not a genuine Fuji camera, no?

Did I assume wrongly, and this camera is actually manufactured by Fuji in their normal process to the same high, exacting standards (gulp!) as all their other output?

Then, in that case, since the way in which the camera is sold, or even the market where it is sold, surely does not affect its potential longevity?

If it's a Fuji and it's faulty, it should get fixed for free - fair dinkum, fellow foto enthusiast.

You need to get your trumpet serviced - it seems to be blowing a few wrong notes at the moment.

Gray market is a product that was moved from it's intended region of sale to another. This happens because companies sell items at different prices based on household incomes, exchange rates, cost of doing business/marketing in that country. In some cases the price differences are quite large. So someone buys the items in the country where the items are cheaper then ships and resells them in another at a higher price but below retail. While this is completely legal, it is unauthorized and not regulated by the manufacturer. With Fuji being completely out of the loop in terms of distribution channels, there's no guarantee that gray market goods aren't repackaged returns, refurbs, used or even that they were shipped properly. They could have spent a month waiting to get through customs on a pallet in Miami sitting outside on a dock where air is salty, the temp is 100 degrees and the humidity is 95%.

Getting a camera from the factory to the hands of the consumer is all part of Fuji's business model and part of what makes up what a genuine Fuji camera is. That's the whole purpose of Fuji having authorized dealers. So while gray market X100's aren't knock-offs made "by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china", they are not genuine Fuji products and Fuji cannot be expected guarantee the quality of them. The only recourse Fuji has is to not support warranty claims on gray market cameras. Few companies do.

That is a great explanation! Now, if you could get the average 21st century internet consumer to go ahead and let this explanation restore their confidence in the fact that Fuji stands by their product, then you've really got something, and perhaps Fuji should pay you the big bucks for PR and damage control.

Sarcasm aside, that is just not how individuals and groups, especially of the internet age, process information. Sociology 101.

This is a futile conversation. When I read repeatedly all the different scenarios that people come up with rather than just admitting the SAB problem is a factory defect, caused by the factory, I have to just shake my head. Your argument is agenda based. You love Fuji, yes, we all get it. Heck, I love my XP1. You can love a company or a product and still hold people there accountable for their mistakes rather than passing them off onto the end user.

It's not really about loving Fuji. Gray market camera sales negatively impact Fuji's bottom line and that in turn negatively impacts us as consumers in the form of higher prices, less R&D and longer waits between models. Supporting Gray market cameras in any way is contradictory to Fuji's business model as it is with most companies. While I sympathize with the end user, I have to also keep in mind that both them and Fuji got screwed by some shady seller on Ebay who's selling "factory fresh X100's, with warranty cards". If Fuji repairs the camera they are getting screwed a second time and also screwing themselves in the long run by making people feel comfortable with buying gray market cameras. If I have a personal agenda if any, it's that I want an X200 and in the future and Xpro-2 sooner than later without a huge price hike.

One thing for sure, the OP as well as many others who read through this thread will from now on avoid buying gray market cameras like the plague.

So, in your opinion, with regards to the known SAB issue, you do not think that Fuji should be responsible to repair every camera they manufactured with said defect?

mr moonlight Senior Member • Posts: 1,789
Re: $700 fix

dnercesian wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

dnercesian wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

Trevor G wrote:

mr moonlight wrote:

You purchased a used grey market camera because you were able to get it for a substantially lower price than a new one or even a local used one with a receipt. With that lower price comes a certain amount of risk.

I assume that, by "grey market" you mean that this camera is not a genuine Fuji but is produced by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china. It's not a genuine Fuji camera, no?

Did I assume wrongly, and this camera is actually manufactured by Fuji in their normal process to the same high, exacting standards (gulp!) as all their other output?

Then, in that case, since the way in which the camera is sold, or even the market where it is sold, surely does not affect its potential longevity?

If it's a Fuji and it's faulty, it should get fixed for free - fair dinkum, fellow foto enthusiast.

You need to get your trumpet serviced - it seems to be blowing a few wrong notes at the moment.

Gray market is a product that was moved from it's intended region of sale to another. This happens because companies sell items at different prices based on household incomes, exchange rates, cost of doing business/marketing in that country. In some cases the price differences are quite large. So someone buys the items in the country where the items are cheaper then ships and resells them in another at a higher price but below retail. While this is completely legal, it is unauthorized and not regulated by the manufacturer. With Fuji being completely out of the loop in terms of distribution channels, there's no guarantee that gray market goods aren't repackaged returns, refurbs, used or even that they were shipped properly. They could have spent a month waiting to get through customs on a pallet in Miami sitting outside on a dock where air is salty, the temp is 100 degrees and the humidity is 95%.

Getting a camera from the factory to the hands of the consumer is all part of Fuji's business model and part of what makes up what a genuine Fuji camera is. That's the whole purpose of Fuji having authorized dealers. So while gray market X100's aren't knock-offs made "by grey-haired old people in some sweatshop in china", they are not genuine Fuji products and Fuji cannot be expected guarantee the quality of them. The only recourse Fuji has is to not support warranty claims on gray market cameras. Few companies do.

That is a great explanation! Now, if you could get the average 21st century internet consumer to go ahead and let this explanation restore their confidence in the fact that Fuji stands by their product, then you've really got something, and perhaps Fuji should pay you the big bucks for PR and damage control.

Sarcasm aside, that is just not how individuals and groups, especially of the internet age, process information. Sociology 101.

This is a futile conversation. When I read repeatedly all the different scenarios that people come up with rather than just admitting the SAB problem is a factory defect, caused by the factory, I have to just shake my head. Your argument is agenda based. You love Fuji, yes, we all get it. Heck, I love my XP1. You can love a company or a product and still hold people there accountable for their mistakes rather than passing them off onto the end user.

It's not really about loving Fuji. Gray market camera sales negatively impact Fuji's bottom line and that in turn negatively impacts us as consumers in the form of higher prices, less R&D and longer waits between models. Supporting Gray market cameras in any way is contradictory to Fuji's business model as it is with most companies. While I sympathize with the end user, I have to also keep in mind that both them and Fuji got screwed by some shady seller on Ebay who's selling "factory fresh X100's, with warranty cards". If Fuji repairs the camera they are getting screwed a second time and also screwing themselves in the long run by making people feel comfortable with buying gray market cameras. If I have a personal agenda if any, it's that I want an X200 and in the future and Xpro-2 sooner than later without a huge price hike.

One thing for sure, the OP as well as many others who read through this thread will from now on avoid buying gray market cameras like the plague.

So, in your opinion, with regards to the known SAB issue, you do not think that Fuji should be responsible to repair every camera they manufactured with said defect?

I think Fuji is responsible for repairing every camera with the said defect that is sold through proper Fuji approved channels within a reasonable amount of time even after warranties have expired. So far it seems that Fuji is doing just that. I don't think we should expect any company to support gray market products in any way shape or form.

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