Be nice, but be honest

Started Jun 4, 2012 | Discussions
paul cool
paul cool Senior Member • Posts: 2,127
Re: Be nice, but be honest

this is taken with a omd e5 auto wb looks ok to me

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OP Jere Landis Senior Member • Posts: 1,933
Re: Be nice, but be honest

paul cool wrote:

this is taken with a omd e5 auto wb looks ok to me

I have nothing to say about it. I'll let everyone else who posted here do their thing.

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Louis_Dobson
Louis_Dobson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,493
Re: Be nice, but be honest

Stylish and cool, but I think you need to PP the underarm, the dark folds don't work.

Jere Landis wrote:

paul cool wrote:

this is taken with a omd e5 auto wb looks ok to me

I have nothing to say about it. I'll let everyone else who posted here do their thing.

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paul cool
paul cool Senior Member • Posts: 2,127
Re: Be nice, but be honest

Good point what sort pp do you recommend

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Louis_Dobson
Louis_Dobson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,493
Re: Be nice, but be honest

I would darken the area and then apply blur.

Ideally create a new layer, blur viciously, and then reduce opacity until it looks natural.

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
This is a toughie.....

Jere Landis wrote:

paul cool wrote:

this is taken with a omd e5 auto wb looks ok to me

Looks overexposed to me. But the DR of the sceen obviouly exceeded the DR capability of the film/sensor.

What this shot needed was lower exposure and a reflector on the dark side of the model.

anything large and white would have worked.

I have nothing to say about it. I'll let everyone else who posted here do their thing.

TEdolph, RIP

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
But that isn't what happens here...

Crimguy wrote:

Sometimes the problem with criticism is that, as presented here, is nothing but negativity.

usually, all we get is, "hey great shot".

There is something to be said about balancing the negatives with the positives. I used to train new attorneys in trial practice. If I only told them what sucked they would probably all be contract attorneys now.

Imagine if your associate just had his head handed to him by the Judge in over ruling a motion and you leaned next to him and said, "hey, great job-the Judge is full of ", and that is all you ever did?

What would those attorneys be doing now?

Also, heaping on criticism, one complaint after another, is never a good path. One problem at a time, right?

You have to tell people when they are wrong.

too many on this forum not only aren't willing to do that, they go to the other extreme......always.

Tedolph, RIP

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Louis_Dobson
Louis_Dobson Forum Pro • Posts: 27,493
Re: This is a toughie.....

Can you really not see why that's a silly remark? And how dull the shot would be done like that?

tedolf wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

paul cool wrote:

this is taken with a omd e5 auto wb looks ok to me

Looks overexposed to me. But the DR of the sceen obviouly exceeded the DR capability of the film/sensor.

What this shot needed was lower exposure and a reflector on the dark side of the model.

anything large and white would have worked.

I have nothing to say about it. I'll let everyone else who posted here do their thing.

TEdolph, RIP

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
Good God.....

misolo wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

The area on the right is a part of the scene, as this is not a close portrait, nor meant to be. It has a painterly effect to it because of the golden hour sun and the beautiful color reflections in the dark water. The position of the subject fulfills the rule of thirds. The boy was relaxed an hunkered down and just looked my way when I spoke to him. He was previously really endulged in watching for a fish to bite. If it had been cropped more the rule of thirds would not have been fuldilled. The photo is a great one and involved a lot of luck. I have a 16x24 hanging on my family room wall. He is my grandson and there is not enough money to buy that photo.

It feels to me like you just invalidated your own original post at the start of the thread.

In my judgment, this is not a great photo at all. It's an ok snapshot. Composition is ok-ish, but not particularly striking. The "model" is not interesting in any way. The body posture is really awkward, looks like a detached head that was photoshoped on a body. My preference would be for a different crop (square-ish, tighter on both sides; the rule of thirds is a guideline that sometimes make a photo look better, but it's not a legal requirement: sometimes there are better choices).

And here's the thing: there's no point in me telling you any of this, and I wouldn't have other than in the context of this thread you started. Because it was clear the moment you posted a so-so photo as being a prime example of your best work that this photo was very, very special to you. All your superlatives ("great photo", "a lot of luck", "not enough money to buy") will sound ridiculous (and even pathetic, in both senses of the word) to some others, but are absolutely true, valid and appropriate for you (and even endearing).

This is why people who are not a**holes (defective human beings with a broken sense of empathy) usually tread with care when providing criticism of other people's photos.

you would have never survived art school.

Every project was graded.......graded!

Criticism is good, but encouraging negativity without being mindful of context just provides cover for people who enjoy being trolling a**holes to hurt others under the cover of the impersonality of online forums.

Tedolph, RIP

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
I konw, I konw Louis.....

Louis_Dobson wrote:

Can you really not see why that's a silly remark? And how dull the shot would be done like that?

it's a "high key" shot, right?

tedolf wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

paul cool wrote:

this is taken with a omd e5 auto wb looks ok to me

Looks overexposed to me. But the DR of the sceen obviouly exceeded the DR capability of the film/sensor.

What this shot needed was lower exposure and a reflector on the dark side of the model.

anything large and white would have worked.

I have nothing to say about it. I'll let everyone else who posted here do their thing.

TEdolph, RIP

Tedolph, RIP

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
Absolutely!

Jere Landis wrote:

Here are a few odds and ends, pick away, but those who pick must post pics of their own or be quiet. You people have established that rule.

Only "experts" are allowed to critique according to the Louis Dobson rules!

Tedolph, RIP

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
So do yours!

SirSeth wrote:

It's bigoted snobbery with a heavy overtone of judgementalism.

Awwww... just kidding. I was compensating because I didn't want to give you any undeserved praise. I do actually have some serious comments about this though. I think that criticism isn't as constructive as we think it is. I'm an educator and student of leadership and have given this a lot of thought. There is a book called Strengthfinder that really hacks at the pervasive idea that we must work on our weak areas in order to be fully successful. Many leaders feel it's their job description to evaluate for weaknesses so that they can help their people grow professionally. They believe their position dictates that they must oversee this growth in order to be a good leader. The problem is, it really doesn't work. If you focus on improving your weaknesses, you'll just be a well rounded mediocre performer.

If Photoperzon became a "well rounded mediocre" photographer that would be an incredible acheivement!

Really, to get somebody on the path to learning, occoasionally you have to first remove self-delusion.

In objective tasks, e.g. climbing a wall on an obstacle course, pole valulting, etc. self delusion is not possible. In more subjective things, e.g. art-it is not only possible, it is common.

So, sometimes that is where we have to start.

If someone post a thread of truely dreadful photo and says, "see here how wonderful my photo's are, C&C welcome", that is where we need to start.

Strengthfinder is about leading from strengths, evaluating in order to build other's strengths, and discovering new strengths. And strengths are not always what you are good at, but what makes you feel amazing while doing them. Some people say they believe this, but in the end they simply try to give a positive spin on working on other's weaknesses. They start referring to weaknesses as "growth potentials" or other such nonsense.

but what if you really don't have any strenghts?

A lot of peole who are self taught are in that boat.

And, they have a lot of bad habits to unlearn.

Anyhow, on DPReview, some photos stink, but I don't feel a need to make the photographer feel good or to fix them.

Do you feel the same way when they specifically ask for C&C?

The type of feedback is heavily dependent on the relationship and level of permission given. People come here for lots of reasons. Some people really want to learn and be pushed. They solicit advice. I've done this quite a bit and have received really good feedback.

But sometimes I just want to share and I don't care if you like the picture or not.

If you don't want it to have an effect on the viewer, or in the alternative don't want feedback, then don't bother.

Best,
Seth

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Tedolph, RIP

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paul cool
paul cool Senior Member • Posts: 2,127
Re: I konw, I konw Louis.....

Yes used a reflector gold later when subject faced me ,so light hit the models face I feel in this pose a reflector would be pointless

perhaps I should of tried a fill in flash.?

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SirSeth
SirSeth Veteran Member • Posts: 9,962
Re: So do yours!

Hey Tedolf,

Really, to get somebody on the path to learning, occoasionally you have to first remove self-delusion.

No one elected me to fix them, but as an educator, I completely agree with you in principle. However, it's only in a very rare situation that removing self-delusion is the first thing I do. Have you found that effective for others?

In objective tasks, e.g. climbing a wall on an obstacle course, pole valulting, etc. self delusion is not possible. In more subjective things, e.g. art-it is not only possible, it is common.

Agreed.

Strengthfinder is about leading from strengths, evaluating in order to build other's strengths, and discovering new strengths. And strengths are not always what you are good at, but what makes you feel amazing while doing them. Some people say they believe this, but in the end they simply try to give a positive spin on working on other's weaknesses. They start referring to weaknesses as "growth potentials" or other such nonsense.

But what if you really don't have any strenghts?

Do you mean that the person has no strengths or that certain photographs stink?

A lot of peole who are self taught are in that boat.

What boat? Think about all the people who get an "education" in their hobby of choice. First of, what's the purpose of teaching yourself any hobby?

And, they have a lot of bad habits to unlearn.

Is it possible to teach one's self good habits as well?

Anyhow, on DPReview, some photos stink, but I don't feel a need to make the photographer feel good or to fix them.

Do you feel the same way when they specifically ask for C&C?

No. I don't feel a need to fix them or massage their self-esteem. I think there are other good reasons to respond when specifically asked for C&C.

The type of feedback is heavily dependent on the relationship and level of permission given. People come here for lots of reasons. Some people really want to learn and be pushed. They solicit advice. I've done this quite a bit and have received really good feedback.

But sometimes I just want to share and I don't care if you like the picture or not.

If you don't want it to have an effect on the viewer, or in the alternative don't want feedback, then don't bother.

Ok. But who are you or I to say which reasons for sharing are valid?

Thanks for writing your thoughts about this. They are interesting to me.

Cheers,
Seth
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The Silver Fox
The Silver Fox Forum Member • Posts: 88
Re: Be nice, but be honest

Jere Landis wrote:

gmac68 wrote:

Oh dear god, seriously? DOF is just horrible. Get yourself a nice .0005 aperture lens so you can focus only on the boy's smile. The skin tone is dreadful, does he not go in the sun ever? You should of waited for a fish on the rod, to give some action to the shot. You took it with a Cannon dSLR? Don't you realize dSLRs are dinosaurs?! Get yourself the EM-5 post haste! And never user AWB that's just asking for trouble. Oh I give up, just stop taking photos... trying to mimic some of the typical "suggestions" some like to post. All the above is sarcasm.

Its usually never the "suggestions" but how the suggestions are offered. More often then not, in condescending tone and more often then not the suggestions just aren't practical or in line with what the photo was intended to do by the author.

Nice photo, the sun and reflections are interesting. For someone who knows the boy, it probably evokes a nice memory. I would crop a little more in, to remove some of the empty area on the right. Also seems to me the boy is looking slight to the left of the camera and has no neck. But then that is real, and not posed. But none of that is necessary to make a pleasant picture and is just what I see.

Jere Landis wrote:

Boris wrote:

You should lead by example and show every one how a proper photo is done!....otherwise it sounds like self serving drivel.
Boris
--

http://public.fotki.com/borysd/

This is one of my favorites, pick away.

The area on the right is a part of the scene, as this is not a close portrait, nor meant to be. It has a painterly effect to it because of the golden hour sun and the beautiful color reflections in the dark water. The position of the subject fulfills the rule of thirds. The boy was relaxed an hunkered down and just looked my way when I spoke to him. He was previously really endulged in watching for a fish to bite. If it had been cropped more the rule of thirds would not have been fuldilled. The photo is a great one and involved a lot of luck. I have a 16x24 hanging on my family room wall. He is my grandson and there is not enough money to buy that photo.

Context in evaluating a photograph (or any document, for that matter) is absolutely essential. Your last two sentences, Jere, provided that context, and changes how we judge the photo. That the boy is your grandson, that his spontaneity and natural demeanor is evident in the midst of a beautiful bucolic setting, makes that picture truly priceless to you , and that is what really matters.

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
Re: So do yours!

SirSeth wrote:
Hey Tedolf,

Really, to get somebody on the path to learning, occoasionally you have to first remove self-delusion.

No one elected me to fix them, but as an educator, I completely agree with you in principle. However, it's only in a very rare situation that removing self-delusion is the first thing I do. Have you found that effective for others?

No, usually the self-deluded are incapable of introspection.

So it is a Sisipheaon task.

In objective tasks, e.g. climbing a wall on an obstacle course, pole valulting, etc. self delusion is not possible. In more subjective things, e.g. art-it is not only possible, it is common.

Agreed.

Strengthfinder is about leading from strengths, evaluating in order to build other's strengths, and discovering new strengths. And strengths are not always what you are good at, but what makes you feel amazing while doing them. Some people say they believe this, but in the end they simply try to give a positive spin on working on other's weaknesses. They start referring to weaknesses as "growth potentials" or other such nonsense.

But what if you really don't have any strenghts?

Do you mean that the person has no strengths or that certain photographs stink?

I mean Photoperzon.

A lot of peole who are self taught are in that boat.

What boat? Think about all the people who get an "education" in their hobby of choice. First of, what's the purpose of teaching yourself any hobby?

Well if you keep to yourself, self enjoyment. Period. .

If you post here and and request C&C, that is different.

And, they have a lot of bad habits to unlearn.

Is it possible to teach one's self good habits as well?

this is very difficult. Occasionally, someone is just an artistic genius and there is nothing that they need to be taught. For most of us, being self taught is a road to disaster, and is certiantly not an optimal way to learn.

Anyhow, on DPReview, some photos stink, but I don't feel a need to make the photographer feel good or to fix them.

Do you feel the same way when they specifically ask for C&C?

No. I don't feel a need to fix them or massage their self-esteem. I think there are other good reasons to respond when specifically asked for C&C.

The type of feedback is heavily dependent on the relationship and level of permission given. People come here for lots of reasons. Some people really want to learn and be pushed. They solicit advice. I've done this quite a bit and have received really good feedback.

But sometimes I just want to share and I don't care if you like the picture or not.

If you don't want it to have an effect on the viewer, or in the alternative don't want feedback, then don't bother.

Ok. But who are you or I to say which reasons for sharing are valid?

Who am I ?

Are you sure you want the answer to that question?

Thanks for writing your thoughts about this. They are interesting to me.

Cheers,
Seth
--
What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?

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Tedolph, RIP

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The Silver Fox
The Silver Fox Forum Member • Posts: 88
Re: Be nice, but be honest

Bob Tullis wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

Bob Tullis wrote:

Some don't know better (like me). Others that do may not have the time to be supportingly critical.

Show 'em how it's done.

Are you being condesending? I know you know very well better.

No, not at all. I don't comment on portraits (though I always question candids being called portraits, silently) because I don't shoot them.

And the best way to suggest being supportively critical is to show how that's done - and if you have confidence in your assessmenst I was encouraging you do so. I've taken one or two to task over this subject, for being rudely authoritative in their "critique", and feel we need more of the direct but encouraging style. Often that depends on appreciating the status of the photographer in question, and taking the time to speak to that level.

Sincerely,

Well said, Bob. Your take on the matter is true of constructive criticism in any area of life. It is easy to shoot off a criticism when evaluating a photograph, or anything else in life. It takes considerably more effort, time and care to get to know the person, their level of competence, and their motives and intentions behind their work. Whenever I critique someone (and my vocation consistently requires that I do), I usually ask a series of questions first, and do a lot of listening. I realize that forums are not the best medium for that level of interaction, but I suspect some effort could be made along these lines in our online critiques.

Off topic: Bob, I love your work, especially those of NYC. As a New Yorker currently in exile, your lovely photographs, especially those B&W's, allow me to emotionally reconnect with my New York, from an era now long past.

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misolo Contributing Member • Posts: 945
Re: Good God.....

Speaking of defective human beings with a broken sense of empathy... If shameless Ted is back getting his fix of arousal in these forums out of attempting to generate conflict and negativity, I need to go back to reading threads in flat view so that (thanks to "ignore") I don't get to even know when his trolling non-sequiturs are anywhere near me.

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
And exactly how.....

The Silver Fox wrote:

Bob Tullis wrote:

Jere Landis wrote:

Bob Tullis wrote:

Some don't know better (like me). Others that do may not have the time to be supportingly critical.

Show 'em how it's done.

Are you being condesending? I know you know very well better.

No, not at all. I don't comment on portraits (though I always question candids being called portraits, silently) because I don't shoot them.

And the best way to suggest being supportively critical is to show how that's done - and if you have confidence in your assessmenst I was encouraging you do so. I've taken one or two to task over this subject, for being rudely authoritative in their "critique", and feel we need more of the direct but encouraging style. Often that depends on appreciating the status of the photographer in question, and taking the time to speak to that level.

Sincerely,

Well said, Bob. Your take on the matter is true of constructive criticism in any area of life. It is easy to shoot off a criticism when evaluating a photograph, or anything else in life. It takes considerably more effort, time and care to get to know the person, their level of competence, and their motives and intentions behind their work.

how do you do that on an internet forum?

Whenever I critique someone (and my vocation consistently requires that I do), I usually ask a series of questions first, and do a lot of listening. I realize that forums are not the best medium for that level of interaction, but I suspect some effort could be made along these lines in our online critiques.

that is totally unrealistic in this venue.

Off topic: Bob, I love your work, especially those of NYC. As a New Yorker currently in exile, your lovely photographs, especially those B&W's, allow me to emotionally reconnect with my New York, from an era now long past.

Back on topic.

Again, a thinly vieled attempt to restrict free speech.

Tedolph, RIP

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tedolf
tedolf Forum Pro • Posts: 26,540
Re: Good God.....

misolo wrote:

Speaking of defective human beings with a broken sense of empathy... If shameless Ted is back getting his fix of arousal in these forums out of attempting to generate conflict and negativity, I need to go back to reading threads in flat view so that (thanks to "ignore") I don't get to even know when his trolling non-sequiturs are anywhere near me.

Be my guest.

No one is forcing you to read what I post.

BTW, why do you read what I post?

Tedolph, RIP

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