Not excited about my D800

Started Jun 4, 2012 | Discussions
Telefoto Regular Member • Posts: 295
Re: Upgrades aren't really about the sensor

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

So you're happier with your $8,000 camera than you would be with our $3300 cameras. Good to know.

For $3300, the D800 couldn't have had dual CF card slots, making it compatible with every previous FX body and 95% of all Nikon DSLRs? For $3300, the D800 couldn't have retained the AF mode switch making it compatible with virtually all Nikon SLRs of the past quarter century?

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Telefoto Regular Member • Posts: 295
Re: Upgrades aren't really about the sensor ?????

Mikael Risedal wrote:

There is no problem to get a few more frames per second from d800, but then you lose about 1 stop in dynamic range at base iso

I like the resolution and DR from D800 and 4 or 6 frames / sec is no big deal for me

Thanks for completely and utterly missing my point.

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J Mankila
J Mankila Veteran Member • Posts: 4,234
The responses are justified on two levels...

Absolutic wrote:

Paul427 wrote:

These forums should be open for honest sharing of views and concerns, not a place for venting which just clutters up otherwise interesting threads. If you do want to criticize a member, perhaps you should educate yourself a little about him before doing so.

Thanks Paul, I've been a dpreview member here on forums since 2004, and these had to be the roughest responses yet.

You have any idea why that is? Could it be because your approach to the camera has been to drown yourself in hype, building unreasonable images and then crying out when you didn't get your instant 'buzz'? That's the modern consumption behaviour for you.

It seems you don't treat the camera as a means to make photos, but rather an item to be owned, looked at and fiddled with. You're basically faulting the camera when you really should be looking at the mirror, evaluating your expectations and re-evaluating the D800 features as they relate to your photography (online sharing, for which there is little need for critical AF accuracy, let alone more than 8MP - which you should've known well in advance).

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regards
Janne Mankila, Finland

Kabe Luna
Kabe Luna Veteran Member • Posts: 9,493
Re: Upgrades aren't really about the sensor

Telefoto wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

So you're happier with your $8,000 camera than you would be with our $3300 cameras. Good to know.

For $3300, the D800 couldn't have had dual CF card slots, making it compatible with every previous FX body and 95% of all Nikon DSLRs?

Not every FX body. The D700, which shares its form factor and configuration, only had a single CF slot. I suspect two CF slots would have required enough additional space inside that the thickness of the body would've had to have been increased. Personally, I'm happy to have the addition of CF cards. Now I don't always have to bring along a card reader since SDs slot right into my laptop.

For $3300, the D800 couldn't have retained the AF mode switch making it compatible with virtually all Nikon SLRs of the past quarter century?

Nikon figured out a better way to do this, and it's one that I am quite happy about. The new switch is far less prone to accidental changes in setting, and now I can select AF mode with my eye to the finder. If this really is a deal breaker for you, I suppose you have bought your last Nikon DSLR, because even the D4 has the new system. I doubt Nikon will be going back to the old way. Don't know where you'd go, though. Canon has an even greater reliance on buttons than the new Nikons, with less in-finder feedback. Ditto Sony. Pentax, I believe, still has the AF mode switches. But no full frame and a skimpy lens lineup. Dang it!!

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moving_comfort
moving_comfort Veteran Member • Posts: 8,228
The responses get an aggregate C+.

J Mankila wrote:

Absolutic wrote:

Paul427 wrote:

These forums should be open for honest sharing of views and concerns, not a place for venting which just clutters up otherwise interesting threads. If you do want to criticize a member, perhaps you should educate yourself a little about him before doing so.

Thanks Paul, I've been a dpreview member here on forums since 2004, and these had to be the roughest responses yet.

You have any idea why that is? Could it be because your approach to the camera has been to drown yourself in hype, building unreasonable images and then crying out when you didn't get your instant 'buzz'? That's the modern consumption behaviour for you.

It seems you don't treat the camera as a means to make photos, but rather an item to be owned, looked at and fiddled with. You're basically faulting the camera when you really should be looking at the mirror, evaluating your expectations and re-evaluating the D800 features as they relate to your photography (online sharing, for which there is little need for critical AF accuracy, let alone more than 8MP - which you should've known well in advance).

.

Sure, but why all the low-level vitriol towards the OP?

I don't agree with his assessment of the camera at all, but I do see some value in the original post - there are a percentage of folks on the edge of buying a D800 who he may have spoken to here; people who might let excitement over a new device affect their judgement about whether or not they really even have a use-case for it.

Sometimes even with all the data out there it takes buying/trying something before clarity takes hold. Maybe he saved some folks that step.

Remember, he's describing his experience with the camera, which has no bearing on your experience with it.

(My experience: I'm as happy with the camera as this little guy is with his self-administered tattoo! )

(casual snap today with the 180, f/5.6 ISO 720 1/250s)

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Here are a few of my favorite things...
---> http://www.flickr.com/photos/95095968@N00/sets/72157626171532197/

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J Mankila
J Mankila Veteran Member • Posts: 4,234
Images were missing...

Luke Kaven wrote:

As it turns out, we do see a higher MTF from the downsampled high resolution sensor in Erik K's studies at LuLa.

I think Bob's suggestion (that you referred to in the LuLa thread) that D3s without OLPF could achieve greater MTF at highest frequencies than 36MP image downsampled to 12MP can not be accurate.

A little shouldawouldacoulda... If the sensors were monochrome, then the D3s could, indeed, achieve very good MTF, but then the OLPF on the 36MP sensor would also be weaker, thus when downsampled, it is my assumption, the gap would become non-existent - and certainly if existent, to the benefit of the higher resolution original image. Given proper downsizing procedure, of course, of which I know little.

The open question left for further investigation is what the actual content of the increased MTF region consists in. So you'd be right to suggest that there is more to be told in this story.

Unfortunately, some of the images in the LuLa thread were missing. But I'll take your word for it.

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regards
Janne Mankila, Finland

J Mankila
J Mankila Veteran Member • Posts: 4,234
Fair points...

moving_comfort wrote:

J Mankila wrote:
Sure, but why all the low-level vitriol towards the OP?

Probably due to the fact that when one is angered, it is tough to keep one's head level and come up with constructive criticism. Conversation often deflates to simple taunts, which don't generate much else than more knee-jerk reactions, e.g. simple taunts...

Of course, there are people who will attack him simply because they have a D800 and feel violated when someone detracts the camera. I really don't think that's a good reason to be angered.

I don't agree with his assessment of the camera at all, but I do see some value in the original post - there are a percentage of folks on the edge of buying a D800 who he may have spoken to here; people who might let excitement over a new device affect their judgement about whether or not they really even have a use-case for it.

In that sense I think you're spot on. Many that I know (myself included) have felt some degree of "This is it?" when buying new gear, be it photography, audio, car or motorcycle related (holds true with girls' toys as well). But, personally, I think it's needed to counter the aforementioned 'buzz', so that we can keep a level head with any purchases that we make.

Sometimes even with all the data out there it takes buying/trying something before clarity takes hold. Maybe he saved some folks that step.

Let's hope so. But it might also be that all the criticism will make people wary of making huge expectations and getting caught up with hype. If that's the case, it's a negative experience that will produce positive results.

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regards
Janne Mankila, Finland

Absolutic
OP Absolutic Veteran Member • Posts: 5,421
Re: The responses get an aggregate C+.

moving_comfort wrote:

(My experience: I'm as happy with the camera as this little guy is with his self-administered tattoo! )

Your photos with the 180mm F/2.8 AF and D800 combo are quite impressive....

Here are couple of more which I am sure people like Lance B would dismiss as 'inadequate" because obviously I don't know what I am doing with this camera.... including a few with 180 F/2.8 AF

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Lance B Forum Pro • Posts: 31,048
Do not misrepresent!

Absolutic wrote:

moving_comfort wrote:

(My experience: I'm as happy with the camera as this little guy is with his self-administered tattoo! )

Your photos with the 180mm F/2.8 AF and D800 combo are quite impressive....

Here are couple of more which I am sure people like Lance B would dismiss as 'inadequate" because obviously I don't know what I am doing with this camera....

Whoahh!! Where did this rubbish come from? It was by your own admission you were not happy with the camera, not me, so don't start this victim rubbish with me. You did not show any photos, either, so where do you get the nerve to even think that I would say that these were inadequate? (which they are not, there are some quite nice shots, there)

Your initial our post was:

Absolutic wrote:

I've had my D800 since March and so far I have not been overly excited about it. I > read all the specs and all the glorious reviews. The truth is I realized that I don't
really need 36MP. I was fine with my D700 12MP and loved that camera, the AF

was great, I had 8fps with a grip, it had levers to switch from single to continuous > AF, instead of pressing some button in front and scroll wheels through myriad of
modes.

I got D800, but I am not sure I am using all of its features. I very rarely print

photos (once in a blue moon, upon vacation) so most of my use is online archiving > and sharing with friends and family. The AF I don't find better than D700.

Toi which I responded:
"Mine is much better. Your technique must be flawed. "

The battery life is worse. The video is a nice bonus, but my $650 Sony NEX-5n does > 1080p/60fps and has silent AF at the same time and the video quality is better (at > least to my eye).

the 36MP files are eating my hard drives. I spend $3K for the camera and I feel I
should be enjoying it more than I am doing. I even thought about trading it for

Canon 5DM3 (I have some nice Canon lenses, including the excellent 70-200 F/2.8 > IS II) but I keep reading about how terrible 5DM3, how soft the images are, how its > dynamic range is only 11EV vs 14.4EV on D800, how its JPEGS are mushy, etc., so I > feel I have a much better spec'd camera in D800, yet there is no love affair there.
Perhaps I am one of these for who D800 was not intended?

to which I responded:

"Obviously not. Maybe you are unable to get the best from the camera and need something simpler. A Canon 5D MKIII will probably fit the bill. "

You even stated that you were thinking of getting a Canon 5D MKII to which I basically agreed with as it suits one of your gripes with the D800, ie large files!!

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Hawaii-geek
Hawaii-geek Veteran Member • Posts: 8,066
Cannon now does

commiebiker,
This, imho is a very important point.

The 5D at 24mp at 6fps AND improved AF , AF maybe as good if not better than the D800 (certainly better AF in studio light).

Where I did not see any 5D at lower end sports shoots ... I am sure the 5D mkIII will make a comeback.

So where is Nikons answer?

It NEEDS to be the D600 at 24mp and 6fps AND 8fps with GRIP. Just a "match" at this point is not good enough. Nikon must know this.

HG

commiebiker wrote:
they don't, but Canon does.....

Biological_Viewfinder wrote:

rhlpetrus wrote:

I wish Nikon would do a D800 body with a 24MP sensor, 6-8 fps, top AF. That would be a more useful camera to many.

They do. It's called the D4.

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http://tourist-of-light.blogspot.com/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit any of my photos & re-post, to help show me 'the way'. * I am trying to Elevate the Level of my 'Snap Shots'

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Telefoto Regular Member • Posts: 295
Re: Upgrades aren't really about the sensor

Kabe Luna wrote:

Telefoto wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

So you're happier with your $8,000 camera than you would be with our $3300 cameras. Good to know.

For $3300, the D800 couldn't have had dual CF card slots, making it compatible with every previous FX body and 95% of all Nikon DSLRs?

Not every FX body. The D700, which shares its form factor and configuration, only had a single CF slot.

Compatible means you aren't forced to buy into a new standard, you can stick with the one in use since DSLRs dawned.

Personally, I'm happy to have the addition of CF cards. Now I don't always have to bring along a card reader since SDs slot right into my laptop.

I assume you meant the addition of SD cards. I've yet to hear a strong rationale as to why SD mixed with CF helps, although you mention one, SD card readers are far more common than CF readers. Fair enough, but consider, with the left hand Nikon gives us SD in the D800, unlooked for, confusing, while with the right they give us XQD in the D4, signaling that SD is not the future. So now how is SD a smart choice for the D800 again?

For $3300, the D800 couldn't have retained the AF mode switch making it compatible with virtually all Nikon SLRs of the past quarter century?

Nikon figured out a better way to do this, and it's one that I am quite happy about. The new switch is far less prone to accidental changes in setting, and now I can select AF mode with my eye to the finder.

In 20 years I've never accidentally changed the AF mode switch, nor heard any single complaint along these lines.

If this really is a deal breaker for you, I suppose you have bought your last Nikon DSLR, because even the D4 has the new system. I doubt Nikon will be going back to the old way. Don't know where you'd go, though. Canon has an even greater reliance on buttons than the new Nikons, with less in-finder feedback. Ditto Sony. Pentax, I believe, still has the AF mode switches. But no full frame and a skimpy lens lineup. Dang it!!

Indeed, I am concerned. Hence the need to post in forums like this one and at least try to get the word out. In any case, let's keep some perspective. None of these items I mentioned is by itself a deal breaker, it's the totality of them that I was using to make my point that the sensor itself is probably strongly outweighed by all the other features a new DSLR brings to the table for people who already own late model DSLRs. In this light, something like FPS is huge, as is shots per battery charge, etc, yet Nikon with these 2012 releases has IMO rather passive aggressively taken a posture that only the sensor should be considered in purchase decisions, and we should all ignore that man behind the curtain there of all the peripheral features they fairly randomly chose to mess with. A new card standard supported by a single vendor was bad enough, but then to release your second new FX body and ignore that new card standard? As Thom Hogan suggested, anyone who knows how corporations operate can smell the screw ups in all this.

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Kabe Luna
Kabe Luna Veteran Member • Posts: 9,493
Re: Upgrades aren't really about the sensor

Telefoto wrote:

Kabe Luna wrote:

Telefoto wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

So you're happier with your $8,000 camera than you would be with our $3300 cameras. Good to know.

For $3300, the D800 couldn't have had dual CF card slots, making it compatible with every previous FX body and 95% of all Nikon DSLRs?

Not every FX body. The D700, which shares its form factor and configuration, only had a single CF slot.

Compatible means you aren't forced to buy into a new standard, you can stick with the one in use since DSLRs dawned.

So, we have a camera that serves two masters in the D800. Professionals will want it, and they have a slot for their existing CF cards. Amateurs, some moving up from the D7000 or lower models, will want it, and they have a slot for their existing SD cards. Is this really so hard to figure out why the camera accommodates the two different formats? So what you only have one CF slot–you're no worse off than you were with the D700.

Personally, I'm happy to have the addition of CF cards. Now I don't always have to bring along a card reader since SDs slot right into my laptop.

I assume you meant the addition of SD cards. I've yet to hear a strong rationale as to why SD mixed with CF helps, although you mention one, SD card readers are far more common than CF readers. Fair enough, but consider, with the left hand Nikon gives us SD in the D800, unlooked for, confusing, while with the right they give us XQD in the D4, signaling that SD is not the future. So now how is SD a smart choice for the D800 again?

Yep, I did mean SD.

Yep, SD remains a smart choice for the D800 for the reasons above.

XQD instead of SD for the D4? I suppose Nikon to some extent expects video professionals to prefer the D4 to the D800, in which case the significantly greater throughput of the XQD makes perfect sense. No new format, no matter now great or use, is adopted without resistance from proponents of the old standard.

As borne out here: people don't like change.

For $3300, the D800 couldn't have retained the AF mode switch making it compatible with virtually all Nikon SLRs of the past quarter century?

Nikon figured out a better way to do this, and it's one that I am quite happy about. The new switch is far less prone to accidental changes in setting, and now I can select AF mode with my eye to the finder.

In 20 years I've never accidentally changed the AF mode switch, nor heard any single complaint along these lines.

Good for you. I have. And a quick search of this forum alone reveals that many others have, too. Nikon has devised a better system. Change. Progress. Resistance.

If this really is a deal breaker for you, I suppose you have bought your last Nikon DSLR, because even the D4 has the new system. I doubt Nikon will be going back to the old way. Don't know where you'd go, though. Canon has an even greater reliance on buttons than the new Nikons, with less in-finder feedback. Ditto Sony. Pentax, I believe, still has the AF mode switches. But no full frame and a skimpy lens lineup. Dang it!!

Indeed, I am concerned. Hence the need to post in forums like this one and at least try to get the word out. In any case, let's keep some perspective. None of these items I mentioned is by itself a deal breaker, it's the totality of them that I was using to make my point that the sensor itself is probably strongly outweighed by all the other features a new DSLR brings to the table for people who already own late model DSLRs. In this light, something like FPS is huge, as is shots per battery charge, etc, yet Nikon with these 2012 releases has IMO rather passive aggressively taken a posture that only the sensor should be considered in purchase decisions, and we should all ignore that man behind the curtain there of all the peripheral features they fairly randomly chose to mess with. A new card standard supported by a single vendor was bad enough, but then to release your second new FX body and ignore that new card standard? As Thom Hogan suggested, anyone who knows how corporations operate can smell the screw ups in all this.

Some of these changes are not their idea. The lower capacity battery, apparently, is mandated by the Japanese government for some reason. The AF options consolidation into a single control is actually a good thing in my book, so that's neither a pro nor a con, simply a difference. The XQD card? Maybe a big goof. What company doesn't do that every now and then. And since I don't consider the other changes to be retrograde steps, I'm willing to give Nikon a pass on that one. With respect, I simply don't share your desire to have Nikon's DSLR development frozen in time. Refusal to reconsider, to change, is what hurt them back during the advent of AF and then again in the early days of digital, so I'm happy to see Nikon's products evolving, even when I don't understand or agree with the direction. What do I know about what the majority of Nikon's customers want? I bet they know far better. If the changes they make are poor ones, Nikon will hear about it and make further changes - maybe back to the old way, for probably still moving forward. Welcome to Nikon in 2012, hopefully just a stepping stone to Nikon in 2013. Things change, progress is made. And, always, some people resist the change.

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Mikael Risedal
Mikael Risedal Veteran Member • Posts: 4,621
Re: Upgrades aren't really about the sensor ?????

and what was your point? or what did a miss?

Telefoto wrote:

Mikael Risedal wrote:

There is no problem to get a few more frames per second from d800, but then you lose about 1 stop in dynamic range at base iso

I like the resolution and DR from D800 and 4 or 6 frames / sec is no big deal for me

Thanks for completely and utterly missing my point.

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Life is a battle wishes aunt Titti

Reilly Diefenbach
Reilly Diefenbach Forum Pro • Posts: 12,665
Re: Upgrades aren't really about the sensor ?????

One of the not so good aspects of this and other photo blogs is the tendency of a good many users to pontificate, and none too pleasantly.

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larrywilson
larrywilson Veteran Member • Posts: 6,361
Nikon d800 or other cameras

I haven't wasted the time to read all the threads in this long string. I did read the original post and see nothing wrong with what was said. It was straight forward and explained why the d800 may not be the camera for the OP. I like to write comments that show respect for others and will continue to do so.

I haven't bought the d800 yet because I have a d3s, but may buy the d800 in the future if I am convinced that it is a camera to fit my type of photography. The operation, speed and handling are very important to me so I am not in a hurry to get rid of the d3s, just too dam good of a camera.

Larry

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Photo Pete Veteran Member • Posts: 4,148
Re: Nikon d800 or other cameras

I'm keeping with my D3s too. A release like the D800 makes you think about what you want out of a camera, but I find the best way to tackle the question is to look at your past photos and assess which of them would have been better achieved with the new camera.

Can't say I've found any from my D3s that would have been improved for their intended purpose by using the D800. I've found a fair few action shots that would have been harder to achieve with the D800 though.

We really are in a position where we can't assume that the latest is the greatest. We have to take stock and think about what we want the cameras to achieve before buying.

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Have Fun
Photo Pete

larrywilson
larrywilson Veteran Member • Posts: 6,361
Re: Nikon d800 or other cameras

I totally agree with Photo Pete. The newest may not be the best for everybody, depends on what the camera is used for.

Larry

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Skipper494 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,250
Re: Not excited about my D800

Learn and explore its possibilities. I like my D700, but appreciate the large pixel count on my NEX 7.

moving_comfort
moving_comfort Veteran Member • Posts: 8,228
Re: Not excited about my D800

Maybe consider this thread linked below, some real-world-shooting differences may get fleshed out there, and you can decide if they apply to your concerns:

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russbarnes Senior Member • Posts: 1,660
Re: Why on earth did he bother??????

I'm not the troll here. The OP made a ridiculous set of statements that he knew before buying it, so it begs the question why on earth he bothered with it. It's a stupid and pointless thread. It's simply a massive dose of buyers remorse - perhaps there's a lesson for others here.

Fred Mueller wrote:

boy you guys are condescending ! Not attractive.

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