Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

Started May 25, 2012 | Discussions
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Peter Nelson Veteran Member • Posts: 6,890
Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

This image was made a few day's back using my Kodak SLR/n 14mp FF DSLR and an old Nikon AI 50mm f/1.4.

I used base ISO 160, Av f/4 and Tv 1/90 hand held bending down and I'm 62 years old. I used f/4 because I wanted the flower to be sharp while keeping the ISO at base of 160. The original image was a little darker so I brightened it up. I also sharpend the image. Perhaps these two opperations brought out a very little amount of noise. I should have exposed to the right for the highlights and if I did the Kodak has no noise at ISO 160. But, I wanted to use f/4 and I wanted as high a shutter speed as I could get to avoid blurryness from hand holding the camera.

I have 3 m4/3 cameras and I do not get anything like this from them. Even when using Leica M 50mm f/1.4 Summilux.

So show me your flower images that you like. We can compare.

Oh, I'm very sure I will get a lot of people TALKING about that FF is nothing and m4/3 can do this no problem. SO to these TALKERS I also say-talk is cheap. Show Me. To those who will go overboard and sling insults at me I say:

Do not bother trying to rip me a new one. Words are only words, show me or shut up!

I can go out and reshoot this at f/1.4 instead of f/4 if the comparasons get anywhere near close. I would thnik you would have no answer to f/1.4 and my Kodak.

Why did I post this now? Right when m4/3 seems to be hitting it's stride? Because there are still many, many people who have never used FF and before it's gone I want them to see what they will not be able to do with smaller sensored cameras. I used to be among the m4/3 people who could not understand why FF is still selling. Now after reflection I know why. DOF is something that can be very pleasant when photographing flowers and portraits. I have had this camera for just over 1 year. I also have a Canon 1DsMkII FF since 2006 and some very nice "L" primes but I think I like my Kodak SLR/n better.

Once againI will say, I can go out and reshoot this at f/1.4 instead of f/4 if the comparasons get anywhere near close. I would thnik you would have no answer to 50mm and f/1.4 and my Kodak.

I am reconsidering DSLR's and FF even as they are about to be ecliped in popularity. I think portability is good. I also think I will hold IQ as the most important aspect pf my personal photography.
-Peter
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Macx Senior Member • Posts: 1,433
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

Congratulations. It must make you very happy.

Ollie 2 Senior Member • Posts: 1,530
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3
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mh2000 Senior Member • Posts: 2,776
now why can't i do that shot with my m43 and Oly 45???

I must be missing something...

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 1,178
Why are you picking a fight?

Chip on your shoulder much? You aren't being defensive, you started out on the offense here, making you "offensive". What kind of conversation are you expecting with that tone? This kind?

By the way, your shot is a bit blurry. Is that the lens, or camera shake?

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drusus Contributing Member • Posts: 691
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

It would be helpful if you showed us a sample m43 photo so that we can see in what ways it is not like the FF sample you posted.

Incidentally, you mentioned an impending decline in popularity of FF dSLRs. Were they ever popular? At $3,000+, I'd be surprised.

Finally, I would be very surprised if your priority really is "the best possible quality". You, like the rest of us, probably want the "best quality you can get in a camera that's a reasonable size for your lifestyle." Otherwise you'd be despising FF cameras and use medium-format or large-format cameras. Instead, you must be willing to carry a certain weight and bulk for a given level of quality. Same as those of us who use m43, really, except that the weight/picture quality ratio is different.

In any case, even though I don't have much vested interest in this debate (shallow DOF is only one of many techniques for adding quality to a picture), I will take the bait and post three samples, all with a Panasonic GF1 and 20 mm (40 mm equivalent focal length) f1.7 lens. Aperture is listed somewhere in each picture.

Drusus

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RaymondR
RaymondR Senior Member • Posts: 2,249
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

chill out, why the attitude? yes, FF offers more DOF control. so what? I don't want to PAY for a FF camera and I don't want to LUG one around. I sold my Nikon D70 because as much as I loved it, it was just too much of a beast to haul around. FF may offer more DOF control, but I seem to be able to get the DOF control I want from my E-PL2 when I want to - these are handheld with the Zuiko 35mm 3.5 macro by way of lens adaptor:

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RaymondR

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mh2000 Senior Member • Posts: 2,776
and you start this with a crappy noisy picture???

Really? You pick a fight with a crappy noisy photo. I've never shot as noisy a photo with my E-P1!

Regarding shallow DoF. Who ever said that m43 is the right tool if your sole purpose is to shoot very shallow DoF?

If you want to have limited DoF you have to do something with it that is creative... don't see this i your example shot.

rpm40 Senior Member • Posts: 2,226
Re: Why are you picking a fight?

Glad you enjoy your camera. If you can't do that with m4/3 though, you need to keep practicing. Because of the 2x crop factor, mounting the exact same lens on m4/3 you will actually get SHALLOWER depth of field.

Kodak FF with 50mm 1.4 at 5 feet= 0.25 feet DOF
m4/3 with 50mm 1.4 at 5 feet= 0.13 feet DOF

People always forget that part when they're trying to do the math.

mh2000 Senior Member • Posts: 2,776
how about bragging about how much bigger...

how about bragging about how much bigger your lenses are too! we all know why some people feel they have to do that!

Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 34,729
Shallow DOF can be attained with any system.

It's simply that FF systems have more DOF options than systems with smaller sensors.

Russ Houston
Russ Houston Veteran Member • Posts: 6,372
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

I just got the Olympus 45mm f/1.8. It's a lovely lens, and yes, you can get shallow depth of field and no, not as shallow as full frame. I assume you know this as physics is physics and DOF is a function of both aperture and sensor size.

This was with a Pentax 50mm f/1.7 lens on my Pen, probably around f/2 or f/2.8 (it's a manual lens, so no EXIF)

Finally, here's one with the kit zoom at 42mm and f/5.6 on the Pen.

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jezza__1 Junior Member • Posts: 45
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

Peter Nelson wrote:

I used base ISO 160, Av f/4 and Tv 1/90 hand held bending down

Wow bending down! Good for you.

Shouldnt you have mellowed a bit by 62?

Lights
Lights Veteran Member • Posts: 3,531
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

Hi Peter. Of course DOF can't be duplicated by M43 compared to FF/135..but with lenses with very close focusing distance, and being aware of subject to background distance, and finding one that does well wide open, a person 'can' get background blur...even if options are more limited.

Here a couple I took with a Tamron 24mm F2.5..the second one is closer to being a flower shot, the first isn't but illustrates what a person "can" do with blur with M43 at close focus distance.

This last one is a shot of my granddaughter (If I'd have gotten closer with this 19 mm - it will focus much closer - down to around 6" I could have gotten more blur) but it's the only shot I've got on here that is some close with this lens, so far. Sorry not a flower shot either.

Yes these lenses do change perspective, a person has to get close. Yes the DOF is much longer but can be done.

Lights
Lights Veteran Member • Posts: 3,531
Re:yes(nt)
Frank B Veteran Member • Posts: 5,408
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

Olympus PEN E-PM1 ,Panasonic LEICA MACRO-ELMARIT 45mm F2.8 O.I., m1/500s f/4.5 at 45.0mm iso200 RAW/PP

Olympus PEN E-PM1 ,Panasonic LEICA MACRO-ELMARIT 45mm F2.8 O.I., 1/160s f/2.8 at 45.0mm iso200 tripod RAW/PP

Olympus OM-D E-M5 ,Panasonic LEICA MACRO-ELMARIT 45mm F2.8 O.I., 1/400s f/8.0 at 45.0mm iso200 RAW/PP

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szlevi Contributing Member • Posts: 932
Wow, impressive: your DSLR can actually makes photos that are...

... worse quality than the shots of my 1.5-y old phone yet you are loudmouthed about your IQ - impressive!

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(Now you cannot say I don't have a single pic! :P)

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DRabbit
DRabbit Veteran Member • Posts: 4,721
Re: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

I'm not up for an argument, but I'm always up for sharing photos.

I will say that I can usually get the shot I'm after using the tool I'm equipped with. I'm not interested in full-frame mostly because of size. On top of that, I did shoot Canon for a while and the one thing they aren't known for is fast lenses that are sharp wide open, so what would be the point if I have to stop it down anyway?

EMP1 + 45mm f/1.8

EPM1 + 20mm f/1.7

Old EP1 with kit lens

Amy
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Peter Nelson OP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,890
that I can afford should be something that anyone can reason out without being told

I thought evey reply was going to be bla bla bla untill I got to your last image. Not too bad at all.

Best IQ in a camera and lens that I can afford should be reasoned out without my having to say so.

I only want people who do not see FF images to at least see what they can look like. Hence my post. I was deffensive at the onset because I just knew there would be many insults without comprhending what I wrote.

drusus wrote:

It would be helpful if you showed us a sample m43 photo so that we can see in what ways it is not like the FF sample you posted.

Incidentally, you mentioned an impending decline in popularity of FF dSLRs. Were they ever popular? At $3,000+, I'd be surprised.

Finally, I would be very surprised if your priority really is "the best possible quality". You, like the rest of us, probably want the "best quality you can get in a camera that's a reasonable size for your lifestyle." Otherwise you'd be despising FF cameras and use medium-format or large-format cameras. Instead, you must be willing to carry a certain weight and bulk for a given level of quality. Same as those of us who use m43, really, except that the weight/picture quality ratio is different.

In any case, even though I don't have much vested interest in this debate (shallow DOF is only one of many techniques for adding quality to a picture), I will take the bait and post three samples, all with a Panasonic GF1 and 20 mm (40 mm equivalent focal length) f1.7 lens. Aperture is listed somewhere in each picture.

Drusus

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Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
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Peter Nelson OP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,890
Thanks RaymondR: Show me-don't talk about DOF FF vs u4/3

Your flowers are very nice I like these shots. Nice DOF.

I started off with an attitude because as I was writting my OP I could already hear the many loud insults and it got to me. I am not actually reading any posts without an image posted into it to save myself the horrendous beating.

Really I just want people to see DOF on FF before they are no longer popular. I am likeing my FF more and more. I still use m4/3 for the convienience.
-Peter

RaymondR wrote:

chill out, why the attitude? yes, FF offers more DOF control. so what? I don't want to PAY for a FF camera and I don't want to LUG one around. I sold my Nikon D70 because as much as I loved it, it was just too much of a beast to haul around. FF may offer more DOF control, but I seem to be able to get the DOF control I want from my E-PL2 when I want to - these are handheld with the Zuiko 35mm 3.5 macro by way of lens adaptor:

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RaymondR

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Life as an artist has had some unusual times to say the least.
visit my web site http://www.flickr.com/photos/artist_eyes/
Remember to click on 'All Sizes' for better viewing.
Artist Eyes

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