Liveview Bashers

Started May 22, 2012 | Discussions
marike6 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,088
Re: Liveview Bashers

DigVis wrote:

There are as far as I see three things that could be better:

2. Low frame rate when zoomed in at 100 %. Especially problematic for video.

With video, once you hit record, the LV cancels all magnification. 100% magnification, just like in still mode, is only for checking critical focus, so I understand what you are talking about.

I agree that there is no problems in general acquiring critical focus with the D800 LV implementation. That said, my 5D II did have a slightly better 1:1 mode in LiveView because there was no line skipping which provided a clearer view.

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DigVis Forum Member • Posts: 97
Re: Liveview Bashers

marike6 wrote:

DigVis wrote:

There are as far as I see three things that could be better:

2. Low frame rate when zoomed in at 100 %. Especially problematic for video.

With video, once you hit record, the LV cancels all magnification. 100% magnification, just like in still mode, is only for checking critical focus, so I understand what you are talking about.

Sorry, I was a bit too brief. What I meant is that it's problematic for moving subjects – something that's common when shooting video. LV magnification during video would have been great though.

Sal Baker Forum Pro • Posts: 10,477
Re: Liveview Bashers

jwang88 wrote:

Have you ever tried the Canon Live View? Canon may lack of the high MP but its Live View performance is day and night compared to Nikon, the poor color, jagged resolution, big noise and vibration of the mirror flapping during the LV shooting, long black out time, inconvenience to manually open the apertures to fine focus, awkward zoom in function, etc. making the LV on Nikon way behind Canon 5D Mark III and even Mark II. So I am staying with Canon even I really love to upgrade to higher MP. Hope Canon will introduce one soon.

Live view just seems like the wrong place to take a step backwards on a 36mp camera. Even Nikon warns that excellent technique and focus are critical to getting the full potential from the D800. It seems strange that they would make critical manual focus slightly more difficult than cameras made 4 years ago. I don't think anyone is saying its totally unusable, just inappropriate for the highest mp FF DSLR available right now.
Sal

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u007 Senior Member • Posts: 1,681
Re: Liveview Bashers

Russ, have you used liveview on any other cameras to compare with?

For instance on a 5d2? I know the 5d2 live view was brilliant, and so was my Sony a580, and so if my Fuji X100. From the videos I've seen, the d800 live view looks pretty bad. But it will depend on expectations of course.

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Rick Knepper
Rick Knepper Forum Pro • Posts: 15,761
A couple questions and I suppose I am a Live View Basher

but I do not let the shortcoming get in the way of my using my camera.

I bought the D700 in Aug 2008 but returned it as news of the Canon 5D2's imminent release was breaking and rumors of a Nikon Hi-res camera (eventually the D3x) were getting ever stronger. I noticed that D700 LV was sort of quirky and didn't match features of current Canon models of the time period (I tested the 40D and although LV was just what I needed, the LCD was very poor like my 5D and washed out in bright sunlight) but my "focus" wasn't on LV at the time.

When I bought the 5D2, LV was a Godsend. Also, the LCD itself was a huge improvement over previous Canon models and the D700 (and ultimately too, the D3x, the Nikon I eventually ended up with). The new LCD of the 5D2 had a coating that removed a significant amount of glare from the LCD and made using the feature easier even in difficult light such as straight up noon.

The LCD of the D700 and D3x were better than Canon's 5D and 40D etc, but not as good as the Canon 5D2.

Has the LCD been improved in the D800 series over earlier models such as the D700 & D3x?

Of course, we all know that about the interpolation thing. I use the D3x's AF-ON button to focus with the AF system (this requires a high contrast edge, a condition that may not always exist at the point of desired focus ), then check it at max mag. If I think I can do better, I go for it, play with it, sometimes I choose my interp, sometimes I stick with the camera's interp.

What I miss from the Canon implementation is the Expourse Simulation feature whereby when turned on, the exposure within the LV image, based on the currently selected aperture, ISO and shutter speed, changes as one moves the focus box over different dark and light areas of the scene. The focus box is obviously tied to the metering. The exposure bar also reacts to this movement so that you have two different ways to judge differences in exposure as you move the box across the frame when picking the point at which to meter and focus.

On my D3x and I presume a similar setting on the D800, there are no changes in exposure (becoming lighter or darker) in the previewed image on the screen in LV as I move the focus box around the image from light to dark areas based on the currently selected aperture, ISO and shutter speed. The exposure bar changes a little but not as drastically as one would expect when metering off a very dark spot vs a very light spot.

Do I have this set incorrectly on the D3x and if not, does the D800 provide an Exposure Simulation feature?

Speaking of the exposure/meter bar which in LV on my D3x appears when I press the OK button, the bar does not appear when I have bracketing turned on. Conversely, when the exposure/meter bar is visible, I am not allowed to turn on bracketing.

Do I have something fouled up here in the settings and if not does the D800 allow the simultaneous use of the meter bar on the LV screen when coupled with braketing?

My 1st work-around has been to use Aperture or Shutter priority and since I am bracketing at least 7 images, I end up with an acceptable exposure among the 7. My 2nd work-around when using Manual has been to turn off bracketing, set exposure, then turn bracketing back on - an annoying work-around similar to that in the YouTube videos for the D800 critical focusing in Live View. I prefer working in Manual if I can bracket and see my exposure bar simultaneously.

russbarnes wrote:

What's that all about? Sorry, but I really don't get it. I think the implementation of Liveview on the D800 is superb if used properly. What exactly is it that people are seeing or expecting that I seem to be missing? This is a serious question. Even fredandmiranda seemed to incompetently use it. Am I the only one that's very happy with how it works? I get a very accurate LIVE VIEW of aperture, light and exposure - for critical landscape focus I open up the lens to f/2.8, focus on the critical part of my subject and then drop out the aperture to around f/11. The results are spectacular. What are all the complaints really about?

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tarnish Senior Member • Posts: 1,470
Seems 100% usable to me

It doesn't have to look gorgeous, it just has to work.

And it does. I bought the camera to make pictures, not to just look at a 3.2" screen. And LV lets me easily nail the focus. It meets the need.

Since the people who hate the 800's LV the most have never touched a Nikon before this, you have to take into account the brand-specific baggage they are already carrying.

BJN
BJN Veteran Member • Posts: 5,075
Excellent. Great tips and clear presentation of LV issues.

I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to make these videos. And your camera settings suggestions are very useful.

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BJN
BJN Veteran Member • Posts: 5,075
Useable, but disappointing

"Useable" is a relatively low bar. The coarse interpolated image is disappointing, especially when the optical finder isn't accurate enough for critical focusing and the focusing screen isn't interchangeable. It's one of the few cheap feeling aspects of the camera and it's one of the corners Nikon cut to hit the D800's price point.

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BJ Nicholls
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MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 14,569
Thank you for the video

Thank you for taking the time to put this together and share the results.

I don't have the camera yet. But from looking at the video it seems to me that the O/P has a point: the impact of the interpolation seems overstated. You state yourself that you can achieve critical focus of a real scene (the trees). Even with the lettering my impression is that I can see clearly when the image is at its sharpest , which is another way to achieve critical focus.

Again these comments are to be taken with a pinch of salt since they don't come with practical experience. But from the video I'm siding with the O/P: what's the big deal about?

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Thierry

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ScottnLaguna
ScottnLaguna Contributing Member • Posts: 756
Re: Liveview Bashers

Paleriders percentages on LV and LCD review seem to be dead on as I looked into this a few weeks ago. The maximum of 200% in LV is usable but for me 200% sharp focus isn't possible with my lens. 400% sharp focus seems impossible to me. Admittedly, my lenses are not top of the line. Anyone get tack sharp focus at 200% or even higher? If so, what lens/es? (BTW, 1 step back from Maximum zoom in LCD review is 200%)

DigVis wrote:

russbarnes wrote:

ThePaleRider wrote:

Unfortunately, it is also the 100% setting which is poorly displayed when zooming in liveview. It makes it very difficult to assess correct focus.

How do you know when it's 100%? Is there a number somewhere on the display, in Info?

I came to that conclusion by zooming in to the equivalent framing in "playback" mode, where you can clearly see the individual pixels at larger than 100 % magnification. I don't have my camera at hand right now, but I believe the maximum zoom for LV is 200% (one step back gives 100%), and the maximum zoom in playback mode is 400% (two steps back give 100%).

This zoom amount also corresponds to "medium magnification" for setting f2: zoom on/off for both playback and LV modes.

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commiebiker Senior Member • Posts: 1,412
Re: Liveview Bashers

+1..nice stuff

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Horshack Veteran Member • Posts: 6,179
Re: Seems 100% usable to me

tarnish wrote:

It doesn't have to look gorgeous, it just has to work.

And it does. I bought the camera to make pictures, not to just look at a 3.2" screen. And LV lets me easily nail the focus. It meets the need.

Since the people who hate the 800's LV the most have never touched a Nikon before this, you have to take into account the brand-specific baggage they are already carrying.

It gets the job done but there's something to be said about how the D800's LV interpolated feed gets in the way of the process of photography. As a landscape shooter I use LV all the time and the D800's digital artifacts interrupts the realism of the scene and constantly reminds me that I'm looking at a facsimile of the scene, whereas that's not the case in true 100% pixel LV representations. Btw, the D7000 has a true 100% pixel representation so the disappointment is not just from Canon shooters coming over to Nikon.

tarnish Senior Member • Posts: 1,470
Newest 1st World Problem

Horshack wrote:

tarnish wrote:

It doesn't have to look gorgeous, it just has to work.

And it does.

It gets the job done but there's something to be said about how the D800's LV interpolated feed gets in the way of the process of photography. As a landscape shooter I use LV all the time

Same here.

and the D800's digital artifacts interrupts the realism of the scene and constantly reminds me that I'm looking at a facsimile of the scene, whereas that's not the case in true 100% pixel LV representations.

I believe you are mistaken in one assumption. A 100% view is still quite obviously a digital facsimile. If you want realism, you'll need an LCD-free optical viewfinder. You don't have that either.

Btw, the D7000 has a true 100% pixel representation so the disappointment is not just from Canon shooters coming over to Nikon.

Yes, that would be Nice, I agree on that. That's about it. I will happily accept a FW upgrade that makes it prettier. But need it? I can't make a rational case for it. Emotional, sure, but not rational, because it works. Good images are my primary consideration; YMMV.

Hint: set the center button function to one click less than highest magnification.

reo8 Regular Member • Posts: 159
Re: Seems 100% usable to me

How many mega-pixel is the D7000 sensor compared to the D800 ?

I think Nikon is skipping the lines because it could be too many pixels for the D800 processor to handle. It's either the processor is not fast enough or that it may suck up too much juice. Either way, I speculate it's a painful trade-off that Nikon has to take which created a little blemish to an otherwise perfect camera.

Horshack wrote:

tarnish wrote:

It doesn't have to look gorgeous, it just has to work.

And it does. I bought the camera to make pictures, not to just look at a 3.2" screen. And LV lets me easily nail the focus. It meets the need.

Since the people who hate the 800's LV the most have never touched a Nikon before this, you have to take into account the brand-specific baggage they are already carrying.

It gets the job done but there's something to be said about how the D800's LV interpolated feed gets in the way of the process of photography. As a landscape shooter I use LV all the time and the D800's digital artifacts interrupts the realism of the scene and constantly reminds me that I'm looking at a facsimile of the scene, whereas that's not the case in true 100% pixel LV representations. Btw, the D7000 has a true 100% pixel representation so the disappointment is not just from Canon shooters coming over to Nikon.

Ayrshirephotographer Regular Member • Posts: 360
Lets talk about IMAGE REVIEW

Does this work without this problem on your 800? Are people seeing it the same as the 700 when just reviewing an image they have taken at 100percent?

russbarnes wrote:

What's that all about? Sorry, but I really don't get it. I think the implementation of Liveview on the D800 is superb if used properly. What exactly is it that people are seeing or expecting that I seem to be missing? This is a serious question. Even fredandmiranda seemed to incompetently use it. Am I the only one that's very happy with how it works? I get a very accurate LIVE VIEW of aperture, light and exposure - for critical landscape focus I open up the lens to f/2.8, focus on the critical part of my subject and then drop out the aperture to around f/11. The results are spectacular. What are all the complaints really about?

Ayrshirephotographer Regular Member • Posts: 360
link showing problem and workaroud

Really good... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSALyicAdj4

russbarnes wrote:

What's that all about? Sorry, but I really don't get it. I think the implementation of Liveview on the D800 is superb if used properly. What exactly is it that people are seeing or expecting that I seem to be missing? This is a serious question. Even fredandmiranda seemed to incompetently use it. Am I the only one that's very happy with how it works? I get a very accurate LIVE VIEW of aperture, light and exposure - for critical landscape focus I open up the lens to f/2.8, focus on the critical part of my subject and then drop out the aperture to around f/11. The results are spectacular. What are all the complaints really about?

Rick Knepper
Rick Knepper Forum Pro • Posts: 15,761
Anyone?

In the previous post, my questions were placed in Bold font and easy to skip to if you didn't want read the rest of the text. I've completely removed the text now (but some of the context may be mssing). I would really appreciate someone's help here.

1. Has the LCD been improved in the D800 series over earlier models such as the D700 & D3x?

2. Does the D800 provide an Exposure Simulation feature similar to Canon cameras?

3. Does the D800 allow the simultaneous use of the meter bar on the LV screen (which is toggled on/off by pressing the OK button on a D3x) when coupled with bracketing (bar won't appear when bracketing is active on a D3x) so that I can use Manual mode effectively when using LV and bracketing together?

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DigVis Forum Member • Posts: 97
Re: Anyone?

Rick Knepper wrote:

2. Does the D800 provide an Exposure Simulation feature similar to Canon cameras?

It offers an exposure simulation. How similar it is to what Canon offers, I don't know.

3. Does the D800 allow the simultaneous use of the meter bar on the LV screen (which is toggled on/off by pressing the OK button on a D3x) when coupled with bracketing (bar won't appear when bracketing is active on a D3x) so that I can use Manual mode effectively when using LV and bracketing together?

Yes. The metering bar is replaced by bracket tick indicators while the BKT button is depressed (and returns once the button is released). Bracketing settings are displayed in the lower right corners at all times. The metering bar is definitely usable together with bracketing.

Rick Knepper
Rick Knepper Forum Pro • Posts: 15,761
Thanks

DigVis wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

2. Does the D800 provide an Exposure Simulation feature similar to Canon cameras?

It offers an exposure simulation. How similar it is to what Canon offers, I don't know.

3. Does the D800 allow the simultaneous use of the meter bar on the LV screen (which is toggled on/off by pressing the OK button on a D3x) when coupled with bracketing (bar won't appear when bracketing is active on a D3x) so that I can use Manual mode effectively when using LV and bracketing together?

Yes. The metering bar is replaced by bracket tick indicators while the BKT button is depressed (and returns once the button is released). Bracketing settings are displayed in the lower right corners at all times. The metering bar is definitely usable together with bracketing.

Sounds encouraging.

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gonzalu
gonzalu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,389
I did, and, it still sucks the same... did you even read my post? :P
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