Intersring Finding, must READ (5DM3 DR!!!)

Started May 2, 2012 | Discussions
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ArabiaSandStorm Regular Member • Posts: 128
Intersring Finding, must READ (5DM3 DR!!!)

Sorry if it has been posted before, but a gentleman @ canonrumors may have stumbled on the reason why shadow recovery is limited with the 5DM3. If this is confirmed, we will definitely see less D800 threads around here...

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=6235.0

Canon EOS 5D Nikon D800
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Ogjetaknight Regular Member • Posts: 359
Re: Intersring Finding, must READ (5DM3 DR!!!)

Yep, this was just posted in another thread

ArabiaSandStorm OP Regular Member • Posts: 128
Re: Intersring Finding, must READ (5DM3 DR!!!)

I posted first Regardless, I hope current owners of 5DM3 do similar tests and let us know.

Ogjetaknight Regular Member • Posts: 359
Re: Intersring Finding, must READ (5DM3 DR!!!)

Yes it should be interesting to see what people find out

RamiH Regular Member • Posts: 438
Re: Intersring Finding, must READ (5DM3 DR!!!)

Very interesting, this could certainly change alot of things!

ArabiaSandStorm wrote:

Sorry if it has been posted before, but a gentleman @ canonrumors may have stumbled on the reason why shadow recovery is limited with the 5DM3. If this is confirmed, we will definitely see less D800 threads around here...

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=6235.0

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Rami.H

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SHillphoto Contributing Member • Posts: 769
Very nice

Thanks for posting,

I will stand by my statement that the 5D3 has much better over all IQ than the D800 the software just needs to catch up.

I feel Nikon does more NR and is more missleading on the true ISO.

There is a trade off for 36MP and in a year the 5D3 will be the camera to have.

canon and nikon are trading places now canon has the lower MP but better images...

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ArabiaSandStorm OP Regular Member • Posts: 128
Re: Very nice

I am waiting for my replacement 5DM3, but to be frank, I SERIOUSLY considered D800, especially when I played around with some of my previous 5DM3 photos in LR. Strange how I was excited to know that maybe the software is the culprit, something we should have considered given it is the RC (release candidate) version we are using to gauge 5DM3 Raw files.

SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Lame argument

ArabiaSandStorm wrote:

Sorry if it has been posted before, but a gentleman @ canonrumors may have stumbled on the reason why shadow recovery is limited with the 5DM3. If this is confirmed, we will definitely see less D800 threads around here...

1. There is no evidence that LR works better with the D800. In fact, LR has historically always done a lousy job with NEFs.
2. The test is meaningless unless compred with the same shot take with the D800

3. Head to head DR tests are consistet with DR measurements that do not involve LR

SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Re: Very nice

SHillphoto wrote:

I will stand by my statement that the 5D3 has much better over all IQ than the D800 the software just needs to catch up.

You could do, but without a side by side comparison, you'd be wasting your time.

What is it about the 5D3 files that remains untapped by spftware - including Canon's?

I feel Nikon does more NR and is more missleading on the true ISO.

How so? Did you measure it, or just feel it?

There is a trade off for 36MP and in a year the 5D3 will be the camera to have.

Why that long?

canon and nikon are trading places now canon has the lower MP but better images...

Really? Any examples?

Anything you have handy better than say this?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1108889

GaryJP
GaryJP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,344
Re: Very nice

ArabiaSandStorm wrote:

I am waiting for my replacement 5DM3, but to be frank, I SERIOUSLY considered D800, especially when I played around with some of my previous 5DM3 photos in LR. Strange how I was excited to know that maybe the software is the culprit, something we should have considered given it is the RC (release candidate) version we are using to gauge 5DM3 Raw files.

It wouldn't be the first time. For example: even up to this point neither Lightroom nor Capture One handle Fuji X10 files well, due to not knowing how to deal with the EXR sensors.

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ArabiaSandStorm OP Regular Member • Posts: 128
Re: Lame argument

SubPrime wrote:

ArabiaSandStorm wrote:

Sorry if it has been posted before, but a gentleman @ canonrumors may have stumbled on the reason why shadow recovery is limited with the 5DM3. If this is confirmed, we will definitely see less D800 threads around here...

1. There is no evidence that LR works better with the D800. In fact, LR has historically always done a lousy job with NEFs.
2. The test is meaningless unless compred with the same shot take with the D800

3. Head to head DR tests are consistet with DR measurements that do not involve LR

Ok SubPrime, D800 is the best camera ever! We are just trying to push 5DM3 to the second place! Satisfied? just calm down

SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Re: Lame argument

ArabiaSandStorm:

Ok SubPrime, D800 is the best camera ever! We are just trying to push 5DM3 to the second place! Satisfied? just calm down

You're telling me to calm down? Please, I'm not the one running around trying to put out the fires on the Canon forum. . I own both systems so there's no point trying to accuse me of bias.

The Canonforum post made the baseless claim that LR was favoring the D800 without even trying to investigate if this was true or not. Ask any Nikon user and they will all tell you that CaptureNX and Capture One do a much better job of raw conversion than LR. It should come as no surprise that DPP does a better job than LR with the 5D3.

This example proves that DPP does a better job of raw conversion on files from the 5D3. That doesn't prove the 5D3 has more DR than all the measurements have indicated. As far as the relative DR of the 5D3, this example tells us nothing.

Stoneh Forum Member • Posts: 62
Re: Lame argument

SubPrime wrote:

That doesn't prove the 5D3 has more DR than all the measurements have indicated. As far as the relative DR of the 5D3, this example tells us nothing.

And how would you measure the DR? If various posts indicate different software works better for different cameras. If the sample is true, it does show there is more than enough DR to lift shadows/recover detail on the mark iii. With the comments youl'd think the mark iii has terrible DR

SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Re: Lame argument

Stoneh wrote:

And how would you measure the DR?

http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm#D4,D800

If various posts indicate different software works better for different cameras.

The contentious issue is the claim made by Canonforum that LR disadvantages the 5D3 and advantages the D800. All that has been demonstrated is that DPP does a better job converting 5D3 files than LR. That is to be expected.

It can similarly be demonstrated that Capture One and Capture NX do a better job on the D800 files than LR.

If the sample is true, it does show there is more than enough DR to lift shadows/recover detail on the mark iii. With the comments youl'd think the mark iii has terrible DR

Good or bad is only relative to the highest and lowest. Simiilarly, saying that there "is more than enough DR to lift shadows/recover detail on the mark iii" is also meaningless. In some cases there will be, and not in others. There will be circimstances where even the highest DR is insufficient.

GaryJP
GaryJP Veteran Member • Posts: 6,344
Re: Lame argument

SubPrime wrote:

The Canonforum post made the baseless claim that LR was favoring the D800 without even trying to investigate if this was true or not.

So sensitive!

It's a fact that Lightroom works better with some cameras and sensors than others, as you see time after time on the Adobe forum, and as is occasionally acknowledged by Adobe.

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B E Regular Member • Posts: 263
More grasping at straws

Dynamic range calculations, like those done by DXOMark and others, are done on the RAW data. And the RAW data shows that (at ISO 100) the D800 sensor has more than two stops more DR than the 5DIII sensor.

No amount of tweaking or switching RAW converters will ever make up for such a huge difference in performance.

Sorry.

ArabiaSandStorm wrote:

Sorry if it has been posted before, but a gentleman @ canonrumors may have stumbled on the reason why shadow recovery is limited with the 5DM3. If this is confirmed, we will definitely see less D800 threads around here...

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=6235.0

Hans Kruse Veteran Member • Posts: 3,364
Re: Intersring Finding, must READ (5DM3 DR!!!)

Well clinging to a straw There is substance to this at all. Lightroom can pull all what is in the RAW file from it. Sometimes the dynamic range is simply not large enough and this will happen for a D800 as well, just a little less often. In most cases one can easily compensate for this by shooting on a tripod and bracket and merge shots in Photoshop HDR Pro or in Photomatix blending. Avoid the tone mappin is my recommendation. Lightroom now supports 32bit files from Photoshop HDR Pro and the final edit can be done in Lightroom. It pretty much works as a super dynamic range RAW file.

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SubPrime Senior Member • Posts: 1,238
Re: Lame argument

GaryJP wrote:

So sensitive!

No, just logic. Is it so unreasonable that someone back up a claim with evidence?

It's a fact that Lightroom works better with some cameras and sensors than others, as you see time after time on the Adobe forum, and as is occasionally acknowledged by Adobe.

It is also a fact that Nikon has nevder been one of them, and that it has historically been better at dealing with Canon than Nikon raw files. So much so that Nikon shooters generally favor Capture NX or Capture One.

joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 3,224
Re: More grasping at straws

I've tested the 5D III vs the 5D II in LightRoom (both should see the same ability or the lack of it) for dynamic range.

I see no point in praising the 5D III over the 5D II - the following image was taken at ISO 200 in a high dynamic scenario in a church. I've lifted the exposure by some 1.5 stops and dropped it also by 1.5 stops to see if there is more detail in the 5D III compare to the 5D II (which is not regarded as a high DR camera)

just have a look yourself - at least it shows that LightRoom does not show more DR for the 5D III at Canon gear - which is telling me a lot - in fact the 5D II looks quite well (no banding at all)

B E wrote:

Dynamic range calculations, like those done by DXOMark and others, are done on the RAW data. And the RAW data shows that (at ISO 100) the D800 sensor has more than two stops more DR than the 5DIII sensor.

No amount of tweaking or switching RAW converters will ever make up for such a huge difference in performance.

Sorry.

ArabiaSandStorm wrote:

Sorry if it has been posted before, but a gentleman @ canonrumors may have stumbled on the reason why shadow recovery is limited with the 5DM3. If this is confirmed, we will definitely see less D800 threads around here...

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=6235.0

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ihv Contributing Member • Posts: 570
Re: Intersring Finding, must READ (5DM3 DR!!!)

I wouldn't hold my breath.

It is just the D800 which has changed our perception how far things can tolerate beating before breaking down, the 5D3 is still absolutely good.

True, that a clever software can push the limits even more, but it has its cost - removed banding improves an image a lot, but at the cost of details. There are also colors, the example you linked has only gray in the shadow - good DR assumes both are recoverable. A side by side comprison of the same scene with both cameras would be extremely useful to form any solid opinion.

Again, the difference for general use is not a big one between the cameras, no doubt the 5D3 excels at most tasks.

ArabiaSandStorm wrote:

Sorry if it has been posted before, but a gentleman @ canonrumors may have stumbled on the reason why shadow recovery is limited with the 5DM3. If this is confirmed, we will definitely see less D800 threads around here...

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=6235.0

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