Mirror vibration DOES matter, particularly for high MP sensors

Started Apr 17, 2012 | Discussions
mike_2008 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,635
Mirror vibration DOES matter, particularly for high MP sensors

Here's an interesting test done with a D800, showing 100% crops with and without mirror lock up (MLU). I found it in this thread: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&thread=41231747 credit to user horshack.

It seems that for shutter speeds slower than 1/100s the 36MP sensor loses critical sharpness due to mirror vibration. This highlights an important advantage of the DSLT design, with no flapping mirror you will never suffer from mirror vibration and will therefore tend to get sharper images. It therefore makes it easier to get the most out of the very high resolution sensors with a DSLT compared with a standard DSLR. Indeed, with the electronic first curtain eliminating also the shutter vibration, a feature that I believe the D800 lacks, even better performance could be achieved than seen here with MLU.

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fjbyrne
fjbyrne Veteran Member • Posts: 8,350
Don't tell the people that defended Sony when they removed MLU

MLU has always been needed on SLRs. I remember the battles back when Sony removed MLU (or didn't include it - depends on your point of view) on the A2XX, A3XX, A4XX and A5XX cameras. The blind defenders claimed it wasn't needed even though there was clear evidence it was ( http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1037&message=34949341 ). Of course Sony removed the need for MLU with the SLT design so now those people are claiming what an advantage that is (even though the claimed MLU wasn't needed). BTW this is not directed at you Mike.

Sorry. I had to get that off my chest

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Plastek Contributing Member • Posts: 619
SLT vs Galaxy

Mike, why all these posts trying to prove SLT superiority over the... universe?

OP mike_2008 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,635
Re: SLT vs Galaxy

Plastek wrote:

Mike, why all these posts trying to prove SLT superiority over the... universe?

I saw the D800 post and found it an extremely clear demonstration of mirror vibration which has been debated often here, most recently with some dismissing its importance. So my post is to update that debate.

This forum can at times be a very negative and gloomy place, posting something positive is, well, positive, imho. It makes me happy to know that my A77 has a modest advantage over other cameras out there, and I thought others might enjoy this too.

Is there a problem with being happy with a Sony DSLT, and expressing it here?
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dongfanghong Regular Member • Posts: 337
Re: SLT vs Galaxy

Plastek wrote:

Mike, why all these posts trying to prove SLT superiority over the... universe?

Mike is very insecure after his a77 purchase. He does feel the need to periodically post a thread about how great is the SLT system versus the other system.

Not long ago he went after several posters that mention about the Nikon d800 on the sony board. And now he does the same.

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dongfanghong Regular Member • Posts: 337
Re: SLT vs Galaxy

mike_2008 wrote:

This forum can at times be a very negative and gloomy place, posting something positive is, well, positive, imho. It makes me happy to know that my A77 has a modest advantage over other cameras out there, and I thought others might enjoy this too.

It's all about what good they are going to say about the SLT. It seems you bought a camera just for people to praise it and not to take pictures. After all, it is your right.

Is there a problem with being happy with a Sony DSLT, and expressing it here?

There are no problems with that. To each his own happiness.

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dongfanghong Regular Member • Posts: 337
Re: Mirror vibration DOES matter, particularly for high MP sensors

mike_2008 wrote:

Here's an interesting test done with a D800, showing 100% crops with and without mirror lock up (MLU). I found it in this thread: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1021&thread=41231747 credit to user horshack.

It seems that for shutter speeds slower than 1/100s the 36MP sensor loses critical sharpness due to mirror vibration. This highlights an important advantage of the DSLT design, with no flapping mirror you will never suffer from mirror vibration and will therefore tend to get sharper images. It therefore makes it easier to get the most out of the very high resolution sensors with a DSLT compared with a standard DSLR. Indeed, with the electronic first curtain eliminating also the shutter vibration, a feature that I believe the D800 lacks, even better performance could be achieved than seen here with MLU.

Well, everyone that is going to use a Nikon D800 will use it according to its characteristics. Be sure that they are going to use the right way to avoid this issue that is not one as the D800 is fitted with MLU. The SLT do not have a mirror causing vibration, yes, but in the other hand the SLT loss of light give it a worse output at high ISO than the Nikon cameras.

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OP mike_2008 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,635
Re: Mirror vibration DOES matter, particularly for high MP sensors

It's amusing that you are always extremely rude to me about my 'obsession' with the A77 being good, while it seems you are equally obsessed with emphasising its weaknesses. You can never let one of my threads pass by without injecting some barbed comment.

The interesting thing is that you don't own an A77, and are barely invested at all in sony compared with your nikon investment, yet you continue to post incessantly about negative aspects of the DSLT and forum members here... It's pretty obvious who is insecure here.

Back on the ignore list gpr2020, mzd, etc. etc. (I'm losing track of all your banned identities, why not keep them in your sig?)

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seilerbird666
seilerbird666 Senior Member • Posts: 1,101
Re: Mirror vibration DOES NOT matter...

...unless you are a pixel peeper. If it did matter then every shot taken with an SLT would be visibly superior to every shot taken with a DSLR. Pixel peeping is only for the VERY insecure (not mentioning any names) people trying desperately to prove their camera is superior to every other camera ever made. Here is a shot taken with a DSLR and I fail to see any problems produced by mirror slap:

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Mike CH Veteran Member • Posts: 9,631
The posting rules...

dongfanghong wrote:

Plastek wrote:

Mike, why all these posts trying to prove SLT superiority over the... universe?

Mike is very insecure after his a77 purchase. He does feel the need to periodically post a thread about how great is the SLT system versus the other system.

Not long ago he went after several posters that mention about the Nikon d800 on the sony board. And now he does the same.

... in case you hadn't noticed:

  1. Mike_2008 is allowed to post anything he wants in whichever way he wants

  2. The rest of us are only allowed to post what meets mike_2008's approval

Regards,
Mike
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Wait and see...

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OP mike_2008 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,635
Re: The posting rules...

Mike CH wrote:

dongfanghong wrote:

Plastek wrote:

Mike, why all these posts trying to prove SLT superiority over the... universe?

Mike is very insecure after his a77 purchase. He does feel the need to periodically post a thread about how great is the SLT system versus the other system.

Not long ago he went after several posters that mention about the Nikon d800 on the sony board. And now he does the same.

... in case you hadn't noticed:

  1. Mike_2008 is allowed to post anything he wants in whichever way he wants

  2. The rest of us are only allowed to post what meets mike_2008's approval

Hate to say it but it's incredibly childish to post this. I express my opinion, and I hit the complain button, but I do not allow or disallow postings. I simply express what I think. The way you construct your post it's effectively saying that I should never post an opinion here. Why is that?

The messages you're referring to were from an OP who was leaving sony to get a nikon d800e, my point was simply that the OP should post on the forum he's moving to, rather than the one he's coming from. It's an opinion, am I allowed one of those? It seems not. It is in any case there is no contradiction between objecting to an OP from someone who's moving to nikon here and examining the vibration sensitivity performance of the same sensor that will eventually be in a sony dslt.

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OP mike_2008 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,635
Re: Mirror vibration DOES NOT matter...

Yes, but if you'd taken the same shot with a dslt it would probably have been sharper. IMHO...

Also, if we don't really care about the details of the IQ we may as well all use A200's...
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TrojMacReady
TrojMacReady Veteran Member • Posts: 8,729
Re: Mirror vibration DOES NOT matter...

seilerbird666 wrote:

If it did matter then every shot taken with an SLT would be visibly superior to every shot taken with a DSLR.

No, that's not the point made. There was a clear bandwith of shutterspeeds mentioned and pixel pitch and focal length obviously are factors too, not to mention the factor human.

ProducePete Forum Member • Posts: 63
Re: Mirror vibration DOES matter, particularly for high MP sensors

Well shoot, there goes my plan of shooting test charts, cropping to 100% and printing 36x24.

Mike CH Veteran Member • Posts: 9,631
Re: The posting rules...

mike_2008 wrote:

Mike CH wrote:

dongfanghong wrote:

Plastek wrote:

Mike, why all these posts trying to prove SLT superiority over the... universe?

Mike is very insecure after his a77 purchase. He does feel the need to periodically post a thread about how great is the SLT system versus the other system.

Not long ago he went after several posters that mention about the Nikon d800 on the sony board. And now he does the same.

... in case you hadn't noticed:

  1. Mike_2008 is allowed to post anything he wants in whichever way he wants

  2. The rest of us are only allowed to post what meets mike_2008's approval

Hate to say it but it's incredibly childish to post this. I express my opinion, and I hit the complain button, but I do not allow or disallow postings. I simply express what I think. The way you construct your post it's effectively saying that I should never post an opinion here. Why is that?

The messages you're referring to were from an OP who was leaving sony to get a nikon d800e, my point was simply that the OP should post on the forum he's moving to now the one who's coming from. It's an opinion, am I allowed one of those? It seems not.

Didn't you yesterday put me on your ignore list?

If you didn't, why did you not respond to my second post yesterday?

Regards,
Mike

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OP mike_2008 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,635
Re: Mirror vibration DOES matter, particularly for high MP sensors

ProducePete wrote:

Well shoot, there goes my plan of shooting test charts, cropping to 100% and printing 36x24.

I agree partially with your point. However you try going on the D800 forum and telling everyone they're wasting their time using such a high resolution sensor and see what happens.

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dongfanghong Regular Member • Posts: 337
Re: Mirror vibration DOES matter, particularly for high MP sensors

mike_2008 wrote:

It's amusing that you are always extremely rude to me about my 'obsession' with the A77 being good, while it seems you are equally obsessed with emphasising its weaknesses. You can never let one of my threads pass by without injecting some barbed comment.

The interesting thing is that you don't own an A77, and are barely invested at all in sony compared with your nikon investment, yet you continue to post incessantly about negative aspects of the DSLT and forum members here... It's pretty obvious who is insecure here.

Back on the ignore list gpr2020, mzd, etc. etc. (I'm losing track of all your banned identities, why not keep them in your sig?)

Didn't you put me on your ignore list? I am more invested in Sony gear than you'll never been in your life, so do not talk about things you don't know. And I have never bashed the a77 as you claim.

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dongfanghong Regular Member • Posts: 337
Re: Mirror vibration DOES NOT matter...

mike_2008 wrote:

Yes, but if you'd taken the same shot with a dslt it would probably have been sharper. IMHO...

Also, if we don't really care about the details of the IQ we may as well all use A200's...
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Yes, right. Nothing has been sharper before the coming of SLT. Well done Sony!

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Vlad4D Regular Member • Posts: 219
Re: Mirror vibration DOES NOT matter...

Here is a shot taken with a DSLR and I fail to see any problems produced by mirror slap:

You may not see it in this (very nice) shoot because mirror slap vibration is noticeable only at shutter speeds longer than 1/40. Probably because frequency of vibration is around 20 Hz.

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OP mike_2008 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,635
Re: Mirror vibration DOES NOT matter...

dongfanghong wrote:

mike_2008 wrote:

Yes, but if you'd taken the same shot with a dslt it would probably have been sharper. IMHO...

Also, if we don't really care about the details of the IQ we may as well all use A200's...
--
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Yes, right. Nothing has been sharper before the coming of SLT. Well done Sony!

I wonder why you are so critical of compliments to sony cameras while th ehuge number of exaggerated pro nikon fan boy comments on the nikon forum you simply ignore. Funny that.

BTW, what is your CURRENT investment in sony? A token A33 so you can say you're a sony user. And what is your nikon investment... FF body, expensive lenses etc. Hmmm... Smells fishy to me.

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