5D3 Pattern Noise Improvement and High ISO Cooking

Started Apr 1, 2012 | Discussions
ak1999 Contributing Member • Posts: 542
Why not?

David Hull wrote:

My first digital camera was a Nikon CoolPix 880. That thing had a serious shutter lag issue, you could never tell when it would take the picture. My G11 is a lot better but my former 20D, my former 5DII as well as my current 5DIII and 50D are perfectly usable. There are issues with all of these cameras but shutter lag wouldn't even make my list.

There is 18ms shutter lag difference in favor of D800.

That is huge in my book and I can detect the diference.

There is a reason I hate driving SUVs and stick with BMWs with sport suspension.

Maybe your reaction time is slow and 18ms makes no difference to you.

ak1999 Contributing Member • Posts: 542
Re: Really?

Kabe Luna wrote:

In silent shutter mode, sure there is longer shutter lag and and mirror blackout with the 5DIII, but I can't perceive any significant difference between it and the D800 in the normal drive modes. My internal clock doesn't operate in milliseconds.

I did not notice difference at first.

Only after getting used to it for while and then switching back to D800 is when I noticed longer shutter lag and the intrusive VF mirror blackout.

On D800 the VF mirror blackout is almost unnoticeable or invisible but it is quite noticeable on the 5D3 in non-quiet mode.

I've read before from probably some fanboys that 5D3 shutter lag and mirror blackout time were a huge improvement and close to 1D/1DX class but they are not even close in my book.

They are better than those from 5D2 but nowhere near 1D class perfomance.

Another performance that has been blown out of proportion is the quiet mode.

It is not as quiet as I've hoped.

My previous D7000 quiet mode was much quieter.

David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,343
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

My first digital camera was a Nikon CoolPix 880. That thing had a serious shutter lag issue, you could never tell when it would take the picture. My G11 is a lot better but my former 20D, my former 5DII as well as my current 5DIII and 50D are perfectly usable. There are issues with all of these cameras but shutter lag wouldn't even make my list.

There is 18ms shutter lag difference in favor of D800.

That is huge in my book and I can detect the diference.

There is a reason I hate driving SUVs and stick with BMWs with sport suspension.

Maybe your reaction time is slow and 18ms makes no difference to you.

LOL. I asked an honest question and your best answer comes from the “mine is bigger than yours” fanboy perspective of Nikon is 20 thousandths of a second faster and I can "detect" the difference. This combined with the typically worthless car analogy really nails it.  I actually thought there might be a real reason that 20 thousandths of a second matters in terms of real photography.  I couldn’t think of one which is why I asked the question.  Now we all know you can’t think of one either.

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ak1999 Contributing Member • Posts: 542
Re: Why not?
1

David Hull wrote:

LOL. I asked an honest question and your best answer comes from the “mine is bigger than yours” fanboy perspective of Nikon is 20 thousandths of a second faster and I can "detect" the difference. This combined with the typically worthless car analogy really nails it. I actually thought there might be a real reason that 20 thousandths of a second matters in terms of real photography. I couldn’t think of one which is why I asked the question. Now we all know you can’t think of one either.

It looks like I've stumbled on to another Canon fanboi.

Look I no problem talking down on my D800 or my Canon 5D3.

I just call it as I see it.

20 miliseconds is a lot.

Have you ever watched the Olympics?

This is your clue for what that 20ms of less shutter lag can be beneficial in a camera.

Victor Engel Forum Pro • Posts: 18,631
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

LOL. I asked an honest question and your best answer comes from the “mine is bigger than yours” fanboy perspective of Nikon is 20 thousandths of a second faster and I can "detect" the difference. This combined with the typically worthless car analogy really nails it. I actually thought there might be a real reason that 20 thousandths of a second matters in terms of real photography. I couldn’t think of one which is why I asked the question. Now we all know you can’t think of one either.

It looks like I've stumbled on to another Canon fanboi.

Look I no problem talking down on my D800 or my Canon 5D3.

I just call it as I see it.

20 miliseconds is a lot.

Have you ever watched the Olympics?

This is your clue for what that 20ms of less shutter lag can be beneficial in a camera.

Actually, 20 ms is not a lot. Please go to http://getyourwebsitehere.com/jswb/rttest01.html and post your results from this test. I bet it will be about an order of magnitude longer than that.

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David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,343
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

LOL. I asked an honest question and your best answer comes from the “mine is bigger than yours” fanboy perspective of Nikon is 20 thousandths of a second faster and I can "detect" the difference. This combined with the typically worthless car analogy really nails it. I actually thought there might be a real reason that 20 thousandths of a second matters in terms of real photography. I couldn’t think of one which is why I asked the question. Now we all know you can’t think of one either.

It looks like I've stumbled on to another Canon fanboi.

Look I no problem talking down on my D800 or my Canon 5D3.

I just call it as I see it.

20 miliseconds is a lot.

Have you ever watched the Olympics?

This is your clue for what that 20ms of less shutter lag can be beneficial in a camera.

Nope, not a fanboy, as I said, I just asked fair and honest question (to which you have not as yet provided any semblance of an answer).

FWIW:  Most people don't shot at the Olympics, those few that do, won't be using the D800 or the 5DIII they will be using something like a 1Dx that bangs away at 12 FPS and that is the mode they will be using it in where shutter lag is not a factor. Here is a histogram of typical measured human reaction times for shutter presses (actually mouse clicks but it is pretty much the same thing).

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

Looks to me like the typical reaction time is around .2 seconds.  You can read his comment about 20ms if you like.

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ak1999 Contributing Member • Posts: 542
Re: Why not?

David Hull wrote:

Nope, not a fanboy, as I said, I just asked fair and honest question (to which you have not as yet provided any semblance of an answer).

FWIW: Most people don't shot at the Olympics, those few that do, won't be using the D800 or the 5DIII they will be using something like a 1Dx that bangs away at 12 FPS and that is the mode they will be using it in where shutter lag is not a factor. Here is a histogram of typical measured human reaction times for shutter presses (actually mouse clicks but it is pretty much the same thing).

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

Looks to me like the typical reaction time is around .2 seconds. You can read his comment about 20ms if you like.

You definetely come across as a fanboy in my book.

My guess is that you view sensor with extra DR as unimportant to you.

The Olympic comment was not meant to be taken literally.

It meant that it is an advantage for fast moving object where miliseconds can make a big difference.

20ms is 10% of .2 seconds and that is significant to me.

Ideal shutter lag should be zero.

If less shutter lag is unimportant then why do the Canon pro models have less shutter lag?

Victor Engel Forum Pro • Posts: 18,631
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

Nope, not a fanboy, as I said, I just asked fair and honest question (to which you have not as yet provided any semblance of an answer).

FWIW: Most people don't shot at the Olympics, those few that do, won't be using the D800 or the 5DIII they will be using something like a 1Dx that bangs away at 12 FPS and that is the mode they will be using it in where shutter lag is not a factor. Here is a histogram of typical measured human reaction times for shutter presses (actually mouse clicks but it is pretty much the same thing).

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

Looks to me like the typical reaction time is around .2 seconds. You can read his comment about 20ms if you like.

You definetely come across as a fanboy in my book.

My guess is that you view sensor with extra DR as unimportant to you.

The Olympic comment was not meant to be taken literally.

It meant that it is an advantage for fast moving object where miliseconds can make a big difference.

20ms is 10% of .2 seconds and that is significant to me.

Ideal shutter lag should be zero.

If less shutter lag is unimportant then why do the Canon pro models have less shutter lag?

In part because of the faster shutter action. With a focal plane shutter, you have a lag from the top of the frame to the bottom of the frame. For the 5D Mark II (I think the Mark III is similar), the electronic shutter takes about 1/30 second to traverse the frame. That's 33 ms right there. There is a similar operation performed by the mechanical shutter. Theoretically, the electronic shutter could start sweeping before the first curtain is finished. I have no idea if it does or not. If it does, then there is a hard limit of the slower of the mechanical and electronic shutters.

If you really care about 20ms, which part of the frame do you want your subject to be timed correctly on?

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ak1999 Contributing Member • Posts: 542
Re: Why not?

Victor Engel wrote:

In part because of the faster shutter action. With a focal plane shutter, you have a lag from the top of the frame to the bottom of the frame. For the 5D Mark II (I think the Mark III is similar), the electronic shutter takes about 1/30 second to traverse the frame. That's 33 ms right there. There is a similar operation performed by the mechanical shutter. Theoretically, the electronic shutter could start sweeping before the first curtain is finished. I have no idea if it does or not. If it does, then there is a hard limit of the slower of the mechanical and electronic shutters.

If you really care about 20ms, which part of the frame do you want your subject to be timed correctly on?

This type of discussion reminds me of those other discussions regarding more DR in sensors.

"Sure EXMOR sensors have more DR but prove us that these extra DR is actually useful."

Why do I have to prove that 20ms less shutter lag is a good thing?

If you can't figure it out then more power to you so won't need to upgrade.

Victor Engel Forum Pro • Posts: 18,631
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

Victor Engel wrote:

In part because of the faster shutter action. With a focal plane shutter, you have a lag from the top of the frame to the bottom of the frame. For the 5D Mark II (I think the Mark III is similar), the electronic shutter takes about 1/30 second to traverse the frame. That's 33 ms right there. There is a similar operation performed by the mechanical shutter. Theoretically, the electronic shutter could start sweeping before the first curtain is finished. I have no idea if it does or not. If it does, then there is a hard limit of the slower of the mechanical and electronic shutters.

If you really care about 20ms, which part of the frame do you want your subject to be timed correctly on?

This type of discussion reminds me of those other discussions regarding more DR in sensors.

"Sure EXMOR sensors have more DR but prove us that these extra DR is actually useful."

Why do I have to prove that 20ms less shutter lag is a good thing?

If you can't figure it out then more power to you so won't need to upgrade.

No. I'm just suggesting that your perceptions may be picking up something other than shutter lag. It's possible you're sensitive to 20ms, but I doubt it. It's not worth arguing, though, particularly since I have never even touched a D800.

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Kabe Luna
Kabe Luna Veteran Member • Posts: 9,496
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

My first digital camera was a Nikon CoolPix 880. That thing had a serious shutter lag issue, you could never tell when it would take the picture. My G11 is a lot better but my former 20D, my former 5DII as well as my current 5DIII and 50D are perfectly usable. There are issues with all of these cameras but shutter lag wouldn't even make my list.

There is 18ms shutter lag difference in favor of D800.

That is huge in my book and I can detect the diference.

There is a reason I hate driving SUVs and stick with BMWs with sport suspension.

Maybe your reaction time is slow and 18ms makes no difference to you.

Personally, when I can discern 1/18,000 of a second difference in shutter lag between one camera and another, I think I will have paid too much attention to the least important things in photography. As long as the response time is reasonable–which, as far as I'm concerned, both 5DIII and D800 are–success becomes less a matter of camera specification than of the photographer knowing how to "drive" the cameras.

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ak1999 Contributing Member • Posts: 542
Re: Why not?

Kabe Luna wrote:

Personally, when I can discern 1/18,000 of a second difference in shutter lag between one camera and another, I think I will have paid too much attention to the least important things in photography. As long as the response time is reasonable–which, as far as I'm concerned, both 5DIII and D800 are–success becomes less a matter of camera specification than of the photographer knowing how to "drive" the cameras.

If you are happy with shutter lag time then more power to you.

I had the impression that the 5D3 shutter lag and mirror blackout times were up to par with the competition based on all posts I've read on how it was much better than 5D2.

The 5D2 reportly has a shutter lag of about 80ms so it is about the same difference as one from D800 and 5D3.

Yet I did not read any challenges to the claim than 20ms shutter lag difference is insignigicant.

Now your comment about "knowing how to drive the cameras" sound more like how to adjust to the camera of your choice.

David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,343
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

Nope, not a fanboy, as I said, I just asked fair and honest question (to which you have not as yet provided any semblance of an answer).

FWIW: Most people don't shot at the Olympics, those few that do, won't be using the D800 or the 5DIII they will be using something like a 1Dx that bangs away at 12 FPS and that is the mode they will be using it in where shutter lag is not a factor. Here is a histogram of typical measured human reaction times for shutter presses (actually mouse clicks but it is pretty much the same thing).

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

Looks to me like the typical reaction time is around .2 seconds. You can read his comment about 20ms if you like.

You definetely come across as a fanboy in my book.

My guess is that you view sensor with extra DR as unimportant to you.

The Olympic comment was not meant to be taken literally.

It meant that it is an advantage for fast moving object where miliseconds can make a big difference.

20ms is 10% of .2 seconds and that is significant to me.

Ideal shutter lag should be zero.

If less shutter lag is unimportant then why do the Canon pro models have less shutter lag?

This is probably a side effect of the fact that the firing rate tends to be faster in genera for the pro models because that is generally what sports oriented cameras are designed to optimize.  The 20 ms you are talking about is the difference between the performance of the two systems NOT the actual shutter lag which is longer than that so you are talking about something more like 5% if even that.  You are grasping for straws.  And… you still haven’t provided a good example of where this hugely dramatic 20 thousandths of a second difference provides a dramatic benefit.  If it is as dramatic as you say, it would seem that you could produce a stunning example or brief story of how you cannot shoot without it.

This all started with a simple question which was what benefit do you get from a 20ms difference in shutter lag, apparently none that you can think of – yep, me neither.

You say: "20ms is 10% of .2 seconds and that is significant to me." how is is significant, what does it allow you to do that cannot be done with other equipment?

"It meant that it is an advantage for fast moving object where miliseconds can make a big difference."

Firing rate, focus accuracy are important here not shutter lag, you are holding a leaky bucket mr fanboy.

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David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,343
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

Victor Engel wrote:

In part because of the faster shutter action. With a focal plane shutter, you have a lag from the top of the frame to the bottom of the frame. For the 5D Mark II (I think the Mark III is similar), the electronic shutter takes about 1/30 second to traverse the frame. That's 33 ms right there. There is a similar operation performed by the mechanical shutter. Theoretically, the electronic shutter could start sweeping before the first curtain is finished. I have no idea if it does or not. If it does, then there is a hard limit of the slower of the mechanical and electronic shutters.

If you really care about 20ms, which part of the frame do you want your subject to be timed correctly on?

This type of discussion reminds me of those other discussions regarding more DR in sensors.

"Sure EXMOR sensors have more DR but prove us that these extra DR is actually useful."

Why do I have to prove that 20ms less shutter lag is a good thing?

If you can't figure it out then more power to you so won't need to upgrade.

That is because all of these types of discussions have no resolution; it is akin to that old adage about arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  It was a simple and honest question, but it seems rather amazingly hard for you to answer.  You should stick to arguing about DR, at least you could show us some underexposed shots of the back side of your lens cap.  You know… something original that has never been done before.

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David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,343
Re: Why not?

Kabe Luna wrote:

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

My first digital camera was a Nikon CoolPix 880. That thing had a serious shutter lag issue, you could never tell when it would take the picture. My G11 is a lot better but my former 20D, my former 5DII as well as my current 5DIII and 50D are perfectly usable. There are issues with all of these cameras but shutter lag wouldn't even make my list.

There is 18ms shutter lag difference in favor of D800.

That is huge in my book and I can detect the diference.

There is a reason I hate driving SUVs and stick with BMWs with sport suspension.

Maybe your reaction time is slow and 18ms makes no difference to you.

Personally, when I can discern 1/18,000 of a second difference in shutter lag between one camera and another, I think I will have paid too much attention to the least important things in photography. As long as the response time is reasonable–which, as far as I'm concerned, both 5DIII and D800 are–success becomes less a matter of camera specification than of the photographer knowing how to "drive" the cameras.

I was just trying to understand it, it has never been a concern to me once I started shooting with DSLR's but I hated it on my old coolpix (it is why I bought the 20D). Sometimes you ask and you learn about a type of shooting that you don't do where something that you don't care about is important.  That is what I was hoping for but looks like no luck, oh well.

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ak1999 Contributing Member • Posts: 542
Re: Why not?

David Hull wrote:

Firing rate, focus accuracy are important here not shutter lag, you are holding a leaky bucket mr fanboy.

Shutter lag more important if you prefocus first and wait for the subject to hit the spot you want.

Do you need more example mr Canon fanboy?

I see you are a fan of spray and pray technique.

Have you ever touch any other brand of cameras?

Let turn this around and ask you a simple question.

How much shutter lag would you consider significant difference?

Victor Engel Forum Pro • Posts: 18,631
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

Firing rate, focus accuracy are important here not shutter lag, you are holding a leaky bucket mr fanboy.

Shutter lag more important if you prefocus first and wait for the subject to hit the spot you want.

... and if you can see the subject approaching the target zone, the link I gave is not so relevant. That reaction time is a real reaction time. What you're talking about is one more of timing an event. I don't know if I've ever seen an online test for something like that.

I know one thing, though. If you're looking through the viewfinder and you see the shot, then you didn't capture it.

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Mike CH Veteran Member • Posts: 9,631
Shutter lag and shutter noise

I can't tell a 20ms difference, no way - more power to those that can. I find the ability very astonishing.

What I can tell is a difference in shutter noise. A colleague who is an avid nature photographer had a cover for his Nikon specially made to dampen the shutter noise. It is still louder than the silent shutter on the 5D3. According to him he has often scared shy animals away due to shutter noise, and thus not been able to get more than one shot.

Regards, Mike

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Wait and see...

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David Hull
David Hull Veteran Member • Posts: 6,343
Re: Why not?

ak1999 wrote:

David Hull wrote:

Firing rate, focus accuracy are important here not shutter lag, you are holding a leaky bucket mr fanboy.

Shutter lag more important if you prefocus first and wait for the subject to hit the spot you want.

Do you need more example mr Canon fanboy?

I see you are a fan of spray and pray technique.

Have you ever touch any other brand of cameras?

Let turn this around and ask you a simple question.

How much shutter lag would you consider significant difference?

If you prefocus and wait your reaction time will be the significant issue.

How much shutter lag do I think is significant?  That is a good question. I have no issue with any of the SLR/DSLR cameras I have used so at this point I really don't worry about it and it was that which prompted my question in the first place. To me it seems hardly worth worrying about, and I was wondering why you did -- but you can't come up with one single salient example where it makes a significant difference or any reason why I should care.  The closest you have come “faster is better”, yea it probably is, but so what.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 5,590
Re: Why the concern over shutter lag?
2

David Hull wrote:

My first digital camera was a Nikon CoolPix 880. That thing had a serious shutter lag issue, you could never tell when it would take the picture. My G11 is a lot better but my former 20D, my former 5DII as well as my current 5DIII and 50D are perfectly usable. There are issues with all of these cameras but shutter lag wouldn't even make my list.

The only real concern with shutter lag is when shooting with two different cameras that have a significantly different value.

When pre-focussing on a rapidly moving subject (e.g. racing motor cycles, F-1 cars) the shutter has to be fired a fraction of a second before the subject arrives at that pre-focussed point. Over a period of time a photographer, especially one who specialises in this type of work, will learn instinctively when to fire the shutter, i.e. compensating for the lag. However if such a person is shooting with two different bodies with significantly different values for lag then timing / reaction issues can arise.

We did not believe this to be a serious issue until we did some tests with a motorcycle photographer and we found he could reliably detect a 70ms difference between his EOS-1 (approx 50ms) and the body he was using as a back up (about 120ms). However when the difference was reduced to 30ms things became significantly less clear cut and was more likely down to his familiarity with one particular camera and the 'feel' of when the activation point of the shutter would be reached.

I doubt there is any human being who could reliably detect a difference of 18ms.

Shutter blackout time is a different issue entirely and is usually related to the speed (FPS) at which the camera has to fire (faster FPS requires a shorter return time of the mirror). This doesn't really have any impact on normal photography other than the psychological effect of not being able to see the subject for a brief period of time. However sometimes a slightly slower moving mirror assembly can be easier to damp (minimising the affect of vibration and shock) so as with most things it's a compromise.

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