NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Started Mar 25, 2012 | Discussions
jschantz New Member • Posts: 7
NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Who needs RAW file compression?

It seems they way to speed things up is to reduce the bits/Sample in the SRW file

Old 1.0x Firmaware was 14 bits/Sample
Ver 1.04 Firmware is 12 Bits/Sample

Why don't they just eliminate the huge full sized JPG thumbnail from the SRW

For Version 1.04
RAW only(SRW) file size 35156268 Bytes
includes
Exif.SubImage1.JPEGInterchangeFormatLength 3593524 Bytes

RAW+Fine(SRW) file size 40461830 Bytes
includes
Exif.SubImage1.JPEGInterchangeFormatLength 8894038 Bytes

Plus the seperate JPG file size 9033596 Bytes

So my question is: what is the true digitizer Bits/Sample resolution?
and give up 2 bits in the RAW SRW file?

Samsung NX200
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snake_b Veteran Member • Posts: 4,680
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Seriously? They're now 12 bits from 14? Looks like I'll wait if the EX1 is every updated.

Why does it always look like Samsung is taking the path of least resistance, rather than fixing things right?

tecnoworld
tecnoworld Veteran Member • Posts: 7,232
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Does this mean it has less color information for each pixel?

Read this:
http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/14-bit-raw-12-bit-part-two.html

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photo444 Regular Member • Posts: 109
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Are you sure that the RAW FILE after FW1.04 uses 12bit pixel?

I am hearing that some of users have complains of reduced image quality after updating the firmware.

Ariston Senior Member • Posts: 2,401
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

photo444 wrote:

I am hearing that some of users have complains of reduced image quality after updating the firmware.

which users?

OP jschantz New Member • Posts: 7
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

I am only as sure as what the EXIF header in the file describes (thus what any software decoder will interpret)

From old file downloaded from here
SW VER 1.02?
exiv2 -vq -ptp print SAM_9093.SRW
Exif.SubImage2.BitsPerSample 14

On FW Ver 1.03
exiv2 -vq -ptp print SAM_0435.SRW
Exif.SubImage2.BitsPerSample 14

On NEW FW 1.04
exiv2 -vq -ptp print SAM_1003.SRW
Exif.SubImage2.BitsPerSample 12

Similar results for BitsPerSample are reported by exiftool

photo444 Regular Member • Posts: 109
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Thank you jschantz. It seems FW1.04 really reduced bits per pixel, which is really a poor way of reducing the size of the RAWs.

Ariston, they are some Korean users in SLRClub. Some of them have been using 60mm Macro lens a lot, and they have noticed poorer IQ immediately after their firmware update. Do you see any effect on IQ after updating?

Ariston Senior Member • Posts: 2,401
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

I see. I have yet to process my new photos. so far, I have no idea with regards to whether there is IQ degradation. I may be able to downgrade back to the old firmware and see if there is any difference.

viking79
viking79 Forum Pro • Posts: 14,157
Not going to matter...

snake_b wrote:

Seriously? They're now 12 bits from 14? Looks like I'll wait if the EX1 is every updated.

Why does it always look like Samsung is taking the path of least resistance, rather than fixing things right?

This is fixing it right, I imagine the camera has absolutely no need for 14 bit RAW. A camera only needs enough bits depending on how noisy the sensor is, most cameras don't need more than 12 bits, and 14 is only useful for a few cameras, mostly full frame.

Not to mention, cutting 2 bits off is not saving that much file size, it is less than 20%, and there seems to be a 20-25% reduction in file size.

Eric

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nx200USER1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,097
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Ariston wrote:

I may be able to downgrade back to the old firmware and see if there is any difference.

hello all, Im new here, my first post (somewhat in anxiety :)).

allow me to respond to you Arister with, no you cant regress back to older firmware, I already tried. anyone know how to edit the firmware? use of a firmware editor? proprietory samsung software? maybe trick the camera to thinking its an updated firmware in the header but the rest of the file remains the same? and in my case the 1.02 firmware cos I dont need the increased nr and less detail the 1.03 introduces.

Also I still use XP, LR4 doesnt play with anything less that vista. I paid over $250 for LR3, an I find LR4 upgrade is $80 an full version is only $150, go figure...

I have been VERY happy with my nx200 purchase from fry's ($599 with 18-55mm kit) and recently purchased the 30mm pancake (behind the glass shelf demo $179, last one in store at fry's) and have been happily filling up 32GB micro sd cards like crazy

Im an old boy who used to love his Olympus OM10 from like 20 years ago, just got back into photography ah, the good ole days of film...maybe im showing my age, but as you very well know, its not the age, its the milage...heh

can someone puhlees show me how to go back to 1.02, I was totally happy with it ever since I got the camera over a month ago. An I've been all over this forum like a moth to the flame since then, learning myself digital camera technology! This is a great place to share and debate.

tkpenalty Regular Member • Posts: 451
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Well even with older cameras theres a difference between 12 bit and 14 bit RAW, especially in shadow detail. I don't think this is a wise move by Samsung; its going to severely cripple the NX200. There goes the excellent image quality of the NX200...

This a bit lazy; its the worst of the worst of compromises.

I hope it is not a Marketing move to Shuffle the NX200 down the heirachy so that the NX20 has a large advantage with its 14, or even higher 16 bit RAWs. I WILL switch away if thats the case.

tecnoworld
tecnoworld Veteran Member • Posts: 7,232
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Samsung should at least leave the opportunity to choose 14 or 12 bit with a setting...like Raw sf or Raw fine..

If the sensor can do 14 bit and the Raw now it's only 12 bit, some information are lost!

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soc77 New Member • Posts: 13
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

That's really good to know after switching to the new firmware... it's time to move back to the 1.03 .... anly idea how to do it?

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snake_b Veteran Member • Posts: 4,680
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Not only lazy, but now they're forcing people to upgrade their PP software.

tkpenalty Regular Member • Posts: 451
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

well it'd be nice if i could get some clear indication as to whether or not there is a loss in image quality for sure. Theoretically yes, but who knows?

snake_b Veteran Member • Posts: 4,680
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

It's hard to say. Under ideal conditions, it's hard to tell most cams from one another- ie: when DR in the composition isn't extremely wide and lighting is quite good. The problems arise in real life usage, where you do have shadows and bright conditions on the same composition and have to deal with all sorts of clipping in the composition phase, but then at that point, to raise shadows without noise and hope you don't have clipped highlights, is sometimes tough. Most of it is choosing equipment with good DR. Having the 14 bit helps with pushing these parameters in PP, not only in extreme conditions, but mild, normal ones. Raise the ISO and you're further narrowing the DR and adding noise into the mix even before raising shadows, for instance. These are not the only parameters, but basically, as many bits as possible would be nice. The EX1 cleans well because of the 14 bit data. I don't think it would clean up as well and be competitive with the output if it had 12 bits, like many others in the class, though they do hold their own.

tkpenalty wrote:

well it'd be nice if i could get some clear indication as to whether or not there is a loss in image quality for sure. Theoretically yes, but who knows?

wictred Senior Member • Posts: 1,195
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

don't the fuji x-pro 1 and olympus omd-em5 also use 12 bits only?

14bit would've been one of the advantages of the nx200 then.

if it really matters anyway, IQ of the olympus and (especially) fuji in difficult lighting conditions seem to be superior even with 12 bits "only".

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snake_b Veteran Member • Posts: 4,680
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

They're been designed around that output, if that's the case.

Here, Samsung, true to its philosophy, made a band-aid fix on the large file problem by dropping the bits, which the output was originally designed around. The NX200 will test lower than what it's advertised at and DXO and others need to retest accordingly.

wictred wrote:

don't the fuji x-pro 1 and olympus omd-em5 also use 12 bits only?

14bit would've been one of the advantages of the nx200 then.

if it really matters anyway, IQ of the olympus and (especially) fuji in difficult lighting conditions seem to be superior even with 12 bits "only".

Delos
Delos Contributing Member • Posts: 851
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

This is an interesting discussion thread. I wonder, though, if it may not contain a lot of overreaction (not a criticism of the concerns). My Nikon D300 offers the ability to choose the bit depth. When this camera was first released there was discussion concerning 14 bit versus 12 bit depth. The reviewers who did (reportedly) extensive testing showed little to no visible difference in image quality or color rendering. In fact, most of the reviews I read suggested that the 14 bit depth was of little use and recommended using the 12 bit depth for all but the most critical shooting.

I've used the camera with both bit depths and prefer the 12 bit for two reasons: 1) higher frame rate on the camera; 2) slightly smaller file size. I really cannot see any difference between 12 and 14 bit. If you are a pixel peeper and run complex algorithms on color charts, you may be able to measure some difference, but I doubt you will be able to see and difference. Our eyes (and printers and monitors) are simply not that sensitive.

This note is not a criticism of anyone's concerns about reducing the captured bit depth. I personally prefer the observable improvement is frame rate (write times) and file size over the (in my eye) non-observable decrease in bit depth.

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snake_b Veteran Member • Posts: 4,680
Re: NX200 FW 1.04 Raw SRW Bits/Sample now 12

Seems a bit contradictory, no?

Delos wrote:

This is an interesting discussion thread. I wonder, though, if it may not contain a lot of overreaction (not a criticism of the concerns). My Nikon D300 offers the ability to choose the bit depth. When this camera was first released there was discussion concerning 14 bit versus 12 bit depth. The reviewers who did (reportedly) extensive testing showed little to no visible difference in image quality or color rendering . In fact, most of the reviews I read suggested that the 14 bit depth was of little use and recommended using the 12 bit depth for all but the most critical shooting.

I've used the camera with both bit depths and prefer the 12 bit for two reasons: 1) higher frame rate on the camera; 2) slightly smaller file size. I really cannot see any difference between 12 and 14 bit. If you are a pixel peeper and run complex algorithms on color charts, you may be able to measure some difference, but I doubt you will be able to see and difference. Our eyes (and printers and monitors) are simply not that sensitive.

This note is not a criticism of anyone's concerns about reducing the captured bit depth. I personally prefer the observable improvement is frame rate (write times) and file size over the (in my eye) non-observable decrease in bit depth.

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