K-01 daylight flash problem (cross-post)

Started Mar 21, 2012 | Discussions
Baxter Bad
Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
K-01 daylight flash problem (cross-post)

(Originally posted in the Pentax forum, apologies to those who feel K-01 topics don't belong here. Fact is, they don't seem to belong anywhere on DPR, but we've had that argument already...)

K-01 owners: Anybody getting something like this when using daylight fill with the onboard flash?

Taken with the DA40 (in green box dummy mode, to eliminate the possibility that it was caused by my own settings). Same result with the DA21, though I haven't tested the other lenses yet. The few flash shots I've taken at night have been fine.

It's also OOF, though I got focus lock. Reminds me of the aperture blade problems I had with my X100, except in this case I can take the same shot immediately before or after, without flash, and it comes out perfect.

Any ideas?

(Update since original post: tested with FA43, same result.)

Fujifilm FinePix X100 Pentax K-01
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Russell Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 12,617
It would be helpfully to have access to the exif data.

It seems to be stripped in the photo posted.

Thank you
Russell

bkpix
bkpix Contributing Member • Posts: 924
Re: It would be helpfully to have access to the exif data.

What ISO? I've had this problem with my K-5 when I've forgotten to reset it from, say, 6400.

Bob

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Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: It would be helpfully to have access to the exif data.

As mentioned, I shot in full auto to avoid user setting errors (of which I've made many).

Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: It would be helpfully to have access to the exif data.

Sorry about that, it was at ISO 200, 1/60, f/5.6. Chosen by the camera (taken in full auto mode).

Wayne Lee Regular Member • Posts: 153
Re: It would be helpfully to have access to the exif data.

You can turn down the flash output. I did find it too strong initially, so set it to -1

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Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: It would be helpfully to have access to the exif data.

When I was going through trying to solve this manually, I adjusted flash exposure comp. This is why I switched to full auto for the test shot.

Col K10d
Col K10d Veteran Member • Posts: 3,216
Re: It would be helpfully to have access to the exif data.

Just checking the manual on line, full auto (mode dial on AUTO) will not support fill flash (Slow Sync). You appear to have to be in Av or P to have the correct flash option.

Baxter Bad wrote:

As mentioned, I shot in full auto to avoid user setting errors (of which I've made many).

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Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
What would be greatly helpful...

...is for a fellow K-01 owner to take a photo similar to the one I posted. On a reasonably sunny day, the camera in full auto mode with the flash up, of a tree from about 15 feet away (flash set to Manual Discharge). Don't even have to post it, just please let me know the result.

Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: It would be helpfully to have access to the exif data.

Col K10d wrote:

Just checking the manual on line, full auto (mode dial on AUTO) will not support fill flash (Slow Sync). You appear to have to be in Av or P to have the correct flash option.

Appreciate the response Col, but it was definitely taken in Full Auto. The flash option I used was Manual Flash Discharge (not Slow Sync).

Russell Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 12,617
Re: It would be helpful to have access to the exif data.

Baxter Bad wrote:

Sorry about that, it was at ISO 200, 1/60, f/5.6. Chosen by the camera (taken in full auto mode).

The values you've given are for an EV10 environment. Is that about right for the scene? Is there a DOF preview on the K-01? You should activate it to make sure the lens is stopping down. My K10D had an issue with the aperture arm where it wouldn't stop the lens down, so everything was taken wide open even though the settings were being calculated correctly. I had a few that looked like your post until I figured it out. The K10D was my first SLR, so I had a lot to learn.

Are you sure the lens on the camera had full contact with the camera? If the A pin got loose and lost connectivity, the flash would fire at full power.

That's it for my ideas of what it could be wrong other than some issue with the firmware.

Thank you
Russell

Russell Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 12,617
Re: What would be greatly helpful...

Baxter Bad wrote:

...is for a fellow K-01 owner to take a photo similar to the one I posted. On a reasonably sunny day, the camera in full auto mode with the flash up, of a tree from about 15 feet away (flash set to Manual Discharge). Don't even have to post it, just please let me know the result.

Maximum distance for the ISO 200 and f5.6 you stated, is 3m. The manual uses those figures in its example, page 218. Minimum is 0.6m.

Thank you
Russell

Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: It would be helpful to have access to the exif data.

Russell Evans wrote:

Baxter Bad wrote:

Sorry about that, it was at ISO 200, 1/60, f/5.6. Chosen by the camera (taken in full auto mode).

The values you've given are for and EV10 environment. Is that about right for the scene? Is there a DOF preview on the K-01? You should activate it to make sure the lens is stopping down. My K10D had an issue with the aperture arm where it wouldn't stop the lens down, so everything was taken wide open even though the settings were being calculated correctly. I had a few that looked like your post until I figured it out. The K10D was my first SLR, so I had a lot to learn.

Are you sure the lens on the camera had full contact with the camera? If the A pin got loose and lost connectivity, the flash would fire at full power. This is with the on board flash correct? We're not working with an external flash?

That's it for my ideas of what it could be wrong with the camera and if it isn't a software issue.

Thank you
Russell

Hi Russell, thanks very much for jumping in. It does seems like the lens isn't stopping down. But I've tested four lenses (Ltd primes, all nearly brand new) with the same result. As for DOF preview, isn't the K-01, as a live view camera, always showing the DOF (or at least a simulation of it)? Right now I'm baffled and just hoping for another K-01 owner to check if they can duplicate the problem, but there don't seem to be any other K-01 owners on the forum.

Russell Evans Forum Pro • Posts: 12,617
Re: It would be helpful to have access to the exif data.

Baxter Bad wrote:

Hi Russell, thanks very much for jumping in. It does seems like the lens isn't stopping down. But I've tested four lenses (Ltd primes, all nearly brand new) with the same result.

If there is an issue with the cameras aperture arm mechanism, then it would be lens independent, which it sounds as if it is.

As for DOF preview, isn't the K-01, as a live view camera, always showing the DOF (or at least a simulation of it)?

No, the arm that you see in the mount holds the aperture wide open so that AF and LCD for you to use to frame the shot gets the most possible light to use. When the shutter triggers, the arm is supposed to move to a position that closes the aperture appropriately for the photo, and then goes back to fully open once the photo has been taken.

You would probably see the aperture setting in the video mode though, as that's the only way video could work. Set the aperture to f22 in video mode and see if the LCD goes darker. That should tell you the arm is working on the camera body. I'm not sure if you'll have to start a movie or not.

Thank you
Russell

Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: What would be greatly helpful...

Maximum distance for the ISO 200 and f5.6 you stated, is 3m. The manual uses those figures in its example, page 218. Minimum is 0.6m.

Thank you
Russell

Yes... so if I was out of range, the shot should have looked like no flash was used.

I took the same shot with my EP3 and forced flash (both cameras with the built-in flash, I don't own externals for either) and indeed it looked like a no-flash shot.

I remember the Q having some odd flash problems, and a K-01 user named trseattle reporting K-01 flash overexposure but not following up with any further details. I've already done a ton of testing after work until it got dark and I couldn't continue, I'll have to pick up again tomorrow and see if I can get any clues.

Thx...

Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: It would be helpful to have access to the exif data.

Russell Evans wrote:

Baxter Bad wrote:

Hi Russell, thanks very much for jumping in. It does seems like the lens isn't stopping down. But I've tested four lenses (Ltd primes, all nearly brand new) with the same result.

If there is an issue with the cameras aperture arm mechanism, then it would be lens independent, which it sounds as if it is.

As for DOF preview, isn't the K-01, as a live view camera, always showing the DOF (or at least a simulation of it)?

No, the arm that you see in the mount holds the aperture wide open so that AF and framing gets the most possible light to use. When the shutter triggers, the arm is supposed to move to a position that closes the aperture for the photo and then goes back to fully open once the photo has been taken.

You would probably see the aperture setting in the video mode though, as that's the only way video could work. Set the aperture to f22 in video mode and see if the LCD goes darker. That should tell you the arm is working on the camera body. I'm not sure if you'll have to start a movie or not.

Thank you
Russell

Interesting, I just tested movie mode at f22 and f2 and all seems well. Then again, this flash problem is occurring only during daylight. I can take a shot right now in my living room (it's 9:25 pm where I am) and it will come out okay. I'll try the movies again tomorrow morning outside, I feel like you're onto something.

Donald B
Donald B Forum Pro • Posts: 16,978
Re: K-01 daylight flash problem (cross-post)

no slr type camera will fill flash in day light if the shutter is over 180 sec only p&s will at almost any shutter speed.

cheers don

Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
Re: K-01 daylight flash problem (cross-post)

Donald B wrote:

no slr type camera will fill flash in day light if the shutter is over 180 sec only p&s will at almost any shutter speed.

cheers don

Thanks, Don. Shutter in this case was 1/60.

bkpix
bkpix Contributing Member • Posts: 924
Re: K-01 daylight flash problem (cross-post)

Hmmmmm... I never use the green mode as I like to know what the camera is up to, and get the feeling it might sometimes be making decisions I don't like -- especially for slightly advanced things like daylight flash.

What happens if you shoot the same photo in P mode?

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Baxter Bad
OP Baxter Bad Regular Member • Posts: 158
More tests this morning

Same tree taken with the FA43, FULL AUTO, no flash. Camera chose 1/160 at f/4, ISO 100:

With onboard flash set to Manual Discharge since flash will not fire in Auto mode as there is ample light. Camera chose 1/60 (as usual), at f/5.6, ISO 400 (it was about 8:15 am). This time the focus is sharp. On the shot I posted yesterday, I'm certain the camera picked a leaf that was closer in the foreground, so that was user error. Nothing wrong with the AF of this camera as far as I have seen:

Same scene but with Olympus EP3, set to Program because the EP3 does not allow forced flash in Full Auto mode. The flash setting in this case was FULL. Camera chose 1/160 at ISO 200, f/7.1. Since the tree is just beyond the range of the built-in flash's power, this is the result I would expect (as if no flash had fired):

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