Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Started Feb 20, 2012 | Discussions
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Carl S Contributing Member • Posts: 929
Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Hello

I've read some good things about this paper and how beautiful B&W prints turn out. But how does it render color prints? Is there a better paper for fine art color prints that has the look of semi-gloss or luster but something nicer than Epson PP Luster?

Or is this Canson paper what I should take a look at? Thanks.

Paul Turton Contributing Member • Posts: 855
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

This past week I got 50 sheets of Canson IBP and am pleasantly surprised at both its colour and B&W capabilities with my iPF5100. I purchased this paper to compare it with Ilford Gallery Fibre Silk which I have been using for the last year.

My conclusion:

Since Canson IBP has a brighter white, images with good colour contrast seem to really pop and it is my current favourite paper. When I want a slightly warmer paper I'll use Ilford GFS.

Phil Hill Senior Member • Posts: 2,733
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Another paper to consider is Canson Platine Fibre Rag. I use both papers and find that each has a different character. If your photos really pop you might prefer the Baryta for maximum contrast. Landscapes and portraits look especially nice on Platine, and it has great surface texture.

For a luster paper, consider MOAB Lasal Exhibition Luster 300. Everybody to whom I showed comparison prints picked it over the Epson equivalent. I don't consider it to be a true fine-art paper, though. At least not when compared to the non-RC papers.

Howard Moftich Veteran Member • Posts: 8,368
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Canson BP is my favorite higher-end paper

Hugowolf Forum Pro • Posts: 12,674
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Carl S wrote:

I've read some good things about this paper and how beautiful B&W prints turn out. But how does it render color prints?

It does great colour prints, but as Phil points out, you should also consider Platine Fibre Rag. The two papers look very similar unprinted, but the Platine looks different with an image on it, and the 100% base makes a difference too.

Is there a better paper for fine art color prints that has the look of semi-gloss or luster but something nicer than Epson PP Luster?

I wouldn’t consider either as fine art paper, although the Platine is closer. I guess it depends on what you consider fine art.

Another paper to consider would be Crane Museo Silver Rag. It is 100% cotton, uses PK and also comes in 24 x 36 inch sheet, which cuts down to 17 x 24 inch sheets with only two inches of waste giving you a much more useful aspect ratio if you do a lot of work with the standard 3:2 ratio a dSLR.

Buy sample packs from Canson, Crane, Epson, Hanhemühle, and Moab, and give them a try yourself; it is really the only way you can be sure what works for you.

Brian A

Carl S OP Contributing Member • Posts: 929
Thanks everyone for your input

and some very helpful suggestions.

E Dinkla Contributing Member • Posts: 746
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Paul Turton wrote:

This past week I got 50 sheets of Canson IBP and am pleasantly surprised at both its colour and B&W capabilities with my iPF5100. I purchased this paper to compare it with Ilford Gallery Fibre Silk which I have been using for the last year.

My conclusion:

Since Canson IBP has a brighter white, images with good colour contrast seem to really pop and it is my current favourite paper. When I want a slightly warmer paper I'll use Ilford GFS.

I do not see a difference in brightness or whiteness between both samples here. Fresh sheets compared in different light conditions. Nor do I see a difference in spectral plots or Lab numbers of the two papers. There is a slight difference in gloss.

Aardenburg tested both papers several times and it looks like there is a difference, not in favor of the Canson. The Canson paper white shifts faster in time.

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met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
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330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

Paul Turton Contributing Member • Posts: 855
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

E Dinkla wrote:

I do not see a difference in brightness or whiteness between both samples here. Fresh sheets compared in different light conditions. Nor do I see a difference in spectral plots or Lab numbers of the two papers. There is a slight difference in gloss.

Aardenburg tested both papers several times and it looks like there is a difference, not in favor of the Canson. The Canson paper white shifts faster in time.

Technical points aside and being very subjective:

The difference I see between Canson IBP and Ilfod GFS is very subtle, but to my eyes, using Canon inks with the iPF5100 and my paper profiles, the Canson paper produces the more pleasing print with my images.

Howard Moftich Veteran Member • Posts: 8,368
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

yes, not quite as warm as GFS

E Dinkla Contributing Member • Posts: 746
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Howard Moftich wrote:

yes, not quite as warm as GFS

Strange, to check my own measurements I compared about 5 each at Aardenburg, the fluctuation within one group was higher than the difference between the two averages.
Ilford Lab 97.9 0.1 0.1 Canson Lab 97.7 0.3 0.3
I measured:
Ilford Lab 98.2 0.0 0.5 Canson Lab 98.0 0.1 0.0

Both dead neutral. The Canson more likely to warm when older according Aardenburg.

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Howard Moftich Veteran Member • Posts: 8,368
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

yes, odd. it's just the 'vibe' i get from handling the 2 papers in my environment.

kjrslr Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

E Dinkla wrote:

Aardenburg tested both papers several times and it looks like there is a difference, not in favor of the Canson. The Canson paper white shifts faster in time.
--
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
330+ paper white spectral plots:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

Would this be due to the fact that the Canson has OBA's

Mark McCormick Senior Member • Posts: 1,065
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Both have low content of OBAs in approximately the same amount. The OBAs create a very neutral media white point when defined by D50 illuminant. To some photographers this is still "warm" because they are accustomed to high OBA containing "bluish" papers. However, if you put both cool-white high OBA content paperr on a table under 5000K lighting (i.e. typical graphic arts viewing booths) with real "creamy white" papers like Hahnemulhe SugarCane and Hahnemuhle Bamboo, then IGFS and CAFI Baryta will indeed look neutral (a* ~ 0, b* ~ 0) in whitepoint color. My take on the AaI&A test results (I"m the director of AaI&A) is that both Ilford Gold Fiber Silk (IGFS) and Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique are nearly identical papers, if there's a difference, it's in the base paper used to make these two products. My opinion, I can't confirm with insider product knowledge, is that if Canson supplies it's own base paper to the same coater that coats IGFS the product does indeed vary in subtle ways due to the different base sheet properties, but the top coat layer seems essentially the same. Thus, differences in these two products are mainly in pricing and supply availability plus subtle surface texture differences owing to the underlying base paper, not top coat chemical stability over time.

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Mark McCormick

Hugowolf Forum Pro • Posts: 12,674
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique
1

Mark McCormick wrote:

… Baryta Photographique are nearly identical papers, if there's a difference, it's in the base paper used to make these two products. My opinion, I can't confirm with insider product knowledge, is that if Canson supplies it's own base paper to the same coater that coats IGFS the product does indeed vary in subtle ways due to the different base sheet properties, but the top coat layer seems essentially the same.

My thoughts entirely, although there are subtle differences in the surface texture, the only sure way to tell them apart if by looking at the uncoated sides.

Brian A

E Dinkla Contributing Member • Posts: 746
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Mark McCormick wrote:

My opinion, I can't confirm with insider product knowledge, is that if Canson supplies it's own base paper to the same coater that coats IGFS the product does indeed vary in subtle ways due to the different base sheet properties, but the top coat layer seems essentially the same. Thus, differences in these two products are mainly in pricing and supply availability plus subtle surface texture differences owing to the underlying base paper, not top coat chemical stability over time.

Hello Mark,

I see very little difference in the spectral plots for the papers backsides. There is a slight difference at the OBA side of all 6 plots but I guess when I measure other samples it may be reversed. I really wonder whether that coating surface difference we all see may relate to a difference in gas fading. More permeable in the Canson version. I guess we will never know. If the Canson gives a better image quality it would be a further indication of a difference in the top coating.

A question: The Premier and Hahnemühle protection varnishes change the fading results of all the Fiber/Baryta papers considerably. The paper white survives much longer. I guess blocking gas fading more than UV blocking for the OBA dyes. What surprises me is that gloss enhancer, gloss optimizer from whatever source, Epson, HP, MIS, actually makes the paper white shift happen faster. I expected no influence there. MIS gloss enhancer being the worst. Is that a discoloration of the gloss enhancer itself or is the paper coating changed by the GE?

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met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
Shareware too:
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http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

BellaBull8 Contributing Member • Posts: 843
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

I printed a color image on this paper and it looked really great. Just enough luster to provide depth, and extremely subtle texture. I also really like the Platine Fibre Rag.
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Mark McCormick Senior Member • Posts: 1,065
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

E Dinkla wrote:

I see very little difference in the spectral plots for the papers backsides.

IGFS and CAIF Baryta both have a very distinct anti-curl layer technology...another reason to believe these products are coated at the same factory using same coating technology. So, you are measuring another coating on the backside not the paper base itself. Yet as noted by others, the top coat does not completely level the paper core texture, so a different base roll material would contribute to subtle differences in top coat stipple, and as you are suggesting may contribute to some difference in final coating porosity and gas penetration through the sheet as well. This is all pretty subtle stuff, though. Most end-users would probably have a very difficult time telling the two products apart in a blind handling test.

A question: The Premier and Hahnemühle protection varnishes change the fading results of all the Fiber/Baryta papers considerably. The paper white survives much longer. I guess blocking gas fading more than UV blocking for the OBA dyes. What surprises me is that gloss enhancer, gloss optimizer from whatever source, Epson, HP, MIS, actually makes the paper white shift happen faster. I expected no influence there. MIS gloss enhancer being the worst. Is that a discoloration of the gloss enhancer itself or is the paper coating changed by the GE?

You have apparently looked at the Aardenburg test results for these various samples of IGFS and CAIF (several running together in the same batch on the same light fade unit to reduce testing variables) more closely than I have! I'm tending to over 200 tests these days, and it's cutting down on my time to study every result in detail. I will have to take a closer look at the gloss enhancer issue, but your observation suggests more likely that the "clear ink" polymers may be prone to a little light-induced color shifting which then adds to media white point shift. However, an interaction with the media binder chemistry can't be ruled out. GLOP is of course a water-based emulsified polymer dispersion whereas sprays like HN protective Spray, Premier Print Shield, etc. are aromatic hydrocarbon solvent-based acrylic varnishes that tend to dry down as less permeable coatings. That said, none of the clear coat gloss enhancer systems seem to be exhibiting any serious discoloration or I'd have probably picked up on that already nor are they improving the light fastness of the overall product as well as the solvent-based sprays do. As unpleasant as the solvent protective sprays are to work with, they really do boost light fastness and gas fastness significantly on most inkjet papers, and for me personally, are essential on my glossy and luster type prints because they eliminate most of the remaining bronzing and gloss differential issues when using today's pigmented ink sets.

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E Dinkla Contributing Member • Posts: 746
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Mark,

There are not that many samples tested with gloss enhancer but I also checked Epson Premium Luster with and without GE or protective varnish and the MIS affects the paper white there as well. Epson R800 printer with MIS alternative inks and Epson R1800 with OEM inks, both with their own version of gloss enhancer. The two without gloss enhancer, Epson 4800 and 2200, do better. The Z3200 Vivera on Epson Premium Luster is not past 30 Megalux hours so no shift measured yet but an older test of the Z3100 on IGFS showed its gloss enhancer did worse than IGFS without GE, both up to 180 Megalux Hours.

I expect you measured the paper white with the GE applied. The way printers and drivers lay the GE down to reduce bronzing and gloss difference differs between the brands and between some choices within the drivers.

As I understand it the acrylic sprays reduce bronzing and gloss difference better than the gloss enhancers do. John Dean mentioned that with the HP Z3100 in mind. Counting everything it looks like I better avoid using the gloss enhancer and find a good solution for acrylic sprays. I try to avoid cans and solvents, looking for a water based acrylic that can be sprayed with a normal air gun. The dried film will be more permeable than solvent based varnishes deliver.

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Mark McCormick Senior Member • Posts: 1,065
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

E Dinkla wrote:

I expect you measured the paper white with the GE applied. The way printers and drivers lay the GE down to reduce bronzing and gloss difference differs between the brands and between some choices within the drivers.

Yes, all Aardenburg lightfastness tests are systems tests since I don't very often have access to individual components. For any print with a coating applied(e.g., sprayed, rolled, or jetted by the printer), the media white is always measured with the coating applied. Sometimes, if I"m given "with and without coating" samples, then both samples go into test side by side and the reports clearly identify how and if any coatings were used. Also, when the Gloss enhancer is applied as part of the standard printing process by the printer I don't call it a coating. In fact, as you know, the printer often feathers the gloss coat volume depending on other ink loads. However, if an AaI&A member uses the printer to jet a coating in a second pass, then I do call it a coating, and it's listed as such in coating/laminate column of the database. It would be pretty improbable that a second-pass application of gloss enhancer could be anything other than a single thickness top coat applied uniformly over the whole image.

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kjrslr Forum Member • Posts: 59
Re: Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique

Thank you both, Mark and Ernst. For what it's worth, I'm in the process of setting up a 4800 with Piezography inks. After some email exchanges with a person that is using the Canson/Piezo inks(they were testing an ink setup for Dana) and sent me some samples printed on Canson, Innova, Cone 5 & Epson EF. All but but the Innova were gloss media that utilized Cone's GO(second pass) coating. It was interesting to see the area covered by the gloss. It did not cover the entire sheet of paper however. The reason I was sent the examples was because of the inkset and because I had not seen any examples of Piezo printed on the Canson. Currently I use the Canson Platine(no OBA's) with a custom ConeColor inkset and was surprised when(in another forum) Mr. Cone mentioned that "all bets were off with the Canson papers" with respect to Piezo inksets.

And Mark, I just yesterday joined onto your site so I still need to get my head around all the data that I see.

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