D800 - a dying species

Started Feb 9, 2012 | Discussions
Michel Savage
Michel Savage Contributing Member • Posts: 750
D800 - a dying species

With the D800, we have reached the apex of DSLR, and from there, the DSLR species will be slowly dying.

Why?

The camera of the future is full frame, mirrorless, uses live view instead of a viewfinder, has an articulated screen, is very very small, highly portabgle and discrete, as an ISO of 12 800 equivalent to ISO 50 in terms of noise.

It may possibly have a 2.8 21-200 zoom (or whatever) that perfectly matches its 30-35 MP sensor.

Big, heavy through the lens cameras are inherited from the film days. Remember, it was first rangefinders, then oh god, with SLR, we could actually see what the lens saw. Ladies and gentlemen, we will soon be beyond that with mirrorless cameras.

I'll tell ya: I'm on the last day of my Thailand trip, and I've had it with bulky bodies and constant lens changes.

What would Cartier-Bresson and Doisneau shoot with today?

You guessed it: a good point & shoot.

Of the 4,000 pics of street photography I just took, it'll be interesting to see how many are misfocussed and/or misexposed despite using a 5DII with 35L and 85 1.8.

For travel, PJ and street photography, smaller is wiser. The D800 is not smaller and wiser (except maybe for the DR feature - a feature, which can be implemented in the smallest of cameras anyway.) It's as bulky and complicated as ever.

All this to say that Nikon may be showing prowess, but it ain't innovative at all.

Canon EOS 5D Mark II Nikon D800
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migus Contributing Member • Posts: 685
Re: D800 - a dying species

In their turpor, Canon and Nikon are slowly focusing on this 'trend'... some vague nervous signals (threat!) are starting the long journey thru the dinosaurian bodies overfed on profits from the high-margin 50+ year SLR fodder.

First Canikon reactions: An oversized 550gr. PS, aka G1X; an over-pixelled 2-pounder D800 vying to compete 5D2 in the video apps. Both a tour-de-force in their class, with dream features of just 2-3 yrs ago. Both irrelevant in the larger picture, i dare say - despite their predictably good sales in the short term.

Other reactions? New internal roadmaps, executive changes, market stalling attempts (controlled leaks, new lenses hinting at great upcoming bodies etc.).

Don't take me wrong: I love the SLR and its OVF, more than everything else. I don't these worthy tried&true designs to die. I'm waiting since years w/ a hefty budget on standby for a Rebel-sized FF, w/ innovative mirror designs (cut in half) to reduce the package by 40-60%, w/o conflicting w/ the 'law of physics'. Till then i'll always have PS and CSC w/ me. Big SLRs and their lenses are left home, or mounted on CSC adapters. Mitch

goshigoo Contributing Member • Posts: 765
Re: D800 - a dying species

NEX and m43 will take over most of the market in the next few years
especially when there are more lenses for NEX and better bodies for m43

DSLR will only be used by professional few years later like today's medium format

MM1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,504
Re: D800 - a dying species

Michel Savage wrote:

With the D800, we have reached the apex of DSLR, and from there, the DSLR species will be slowly dying.

Why?

The camera of the future is full frame, mirrorless, uses live view instead of a viewfinder, has an articulated screen, is very very small, highly portabgle and discrete, as an ISO of 12 800 equivalent to ISO 50 in terms of noise.

It may possibly have a 2.8 21-200 zoom (or whatever) that perfectly matches its 30-35 MP sensor.

Big, heavy through the lens cameras are inherited from the film days.

I guess that zoom of yours would be still heavy and big because you specified a FF sensor for it, no matter that you got rid of the mirrorbox.

Getting rid of the mirrorbox will only help you to create smaller wide angle lenses, because you don't need to implement the retrofocus.

But the xx-200/2.8 zoom would be as big as L of today, on your mirrorless FF camera of future.

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Cheers,
Martin

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jambalawa Contributing Member • Posts: 811
Re: D800 - a dying species

You forgot to mention the 1000 frames per second.. then we might have the death of photography also!

Naw.. a beautiful image will still be elusive enough to keep it as an art.. I think...

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pekelnik Regular Member • Posts: 146
Re: D800 - a dying species

Camera resolution is bound by simple physics. There will never be a small sensor and small lens cross-section camera with significantly better resolution than todays FF and MF cameras. Notice the push towards larger sensors and larger lenses in cameras. Even P&S cameras are getting bigger and bigger- because there is a push to make the new model better than the previous one, and you can't do it with the same sensor and lens size.

Yes, you can make a great mirror-less camera, but in particular for tele-photo applications you are bound by the width of the lens aperture and you are stuck there.

And people will always want the better hardware, no matter that they can't use it to its potential, so if in the year 2020 the average P&S will have the quality of the 5dm2 and the top level camera will have the quality of the H4D, people will still buy the better one and be outraged by the horrible P&S quality.

topstuff Senior Member • Posts: 1,209
Re: D800 - a dying species

I agree.

Sensor technology is evolving fast.

The market is currently fixated with the notion that a large sensor is always better.

This is nonsense for many, many people.

Even a sensor like the Nikon 1 can produce lovely, deeply colorful A3 sized / 297mm × 420mm prints that 99% of people would think look wonderful.

Even then, most people do not print AT ALL ! They view on an ipad or digital screen - where even less resolution is needed.

As smaller sensors get better - they become "good enough" for the needs of millions of people. Cameras will therefore get much smaller, because that is where the sales are.

Meanwhile, enthusiasts and professionals who actually NEED the big resolution will no doubt continue with bigger camera, although the market will get smaller IMO.

topstuff Senior Member • Posts: 1,209
Re: D800 - a dying species

What would Cartier-Bresson and Doisneau shoot with today?

Probably an Olympus Pen or a Pansonic GF thing.

And people would criticise the pictures for being out of focus, or not sharp enough and generally pixel peep.

HCB would probably get shunned at the camera club for not having a BIG camera, give up and take up painting instead.

FeedMe Senior Member • Posts: 2,474
Re: D800 - a dying species

The only problem with this is that "street photography" is moronic elitist pretentious crap.. and a total waste of time and photography.

Michel Savage wrote:

With the D800, we have reached the apex of DSLR, and from there, the DSLR species will be slowly dying.

Why?

The camera of the future is full frame, mirrorless, uses live view instead of a viewfinder, has an articulated screen, is very very small, highly portabgle and discrete, as an ISO of 12 800 equivalent to ISO 50 in terms of noise.

It may possibly have a 2.8 21-200 zoom (or whatever) that perfectly matches its 30-35 MP sensor.

Big, heavy through the lens cameras are inherited from the film days. Remember, it was first rangefinders, then oh god, with SLR, we could actually see what the lens saw. Ladies and gentlemen, we will soon be beyond that with mirrorless cameras.

I'll tell ya: I'm on the last day of my Thailand trip, and I've had it with bulky bodies and constant lens changes.

What would Cartier-Bresson and Doisneau shoot with today?

You guessed it: a good point & shoot.

Of the 4,000 pics of street photography I just took, it'll be interesting to see how many are misfocussed and/or misexposed despite using a 5DII with 35L and 85 1.8.

For travel, PJ and street photography, smaller is wiser. The D800 is not smaller and wiser (except maybe for the DR feature - a feature, which can be implemented in the smallest of cameras anyway.) It's as bulky and complicated as ever.

All this to say that Nikon may be showing prowess, but it ain't innovative at all.

Slideshow Bob Senior Member • Posts: 1,689
I don't agree at all.

Michel Savage wrote:

The camera of the future is full frame, mirrorless, uses live view instead of a viewfinder, has an articulated screen, is very very small, highly portabgle and discrete, as an ISO of 12 800 equivalent to ISO 50 in terms of noise.

Why would anyone want a "very, very small" camera? The smaller they are, the more difficult they are to hold steady. The smaller they are, the more unbalanced they are with the lens (which, if you're right, will be the same size and weight as current FF lenses). The 5DII / D800 size is perfect for a DSLR. I find the Canon 1 series or Nikon Dx a little large for everyday shooting, although if you're using a long tele, they do tend to work amazingly well.

It may possibly have a 2.8 21-200 zoom (or whatever) that perfectly matches its 30-35 MP sensor.

That would be a pretty large, heavy lens for a FF sensor, and like most 'superzooms' would be difficult to get right optically.

What would Cartier-Bresson and Doisneau shoot with today?

You guessed it: a good point & shoot.

Probably not. Since IQ is now tied to the camera, rather than the film stock, they'd probably be shooting with an M9.

Of the 4,000 pics of street photography I just took, it'll be interesting to see how many are misfocussed and/or misexposed despite using a 5DII with 35L and 85 1.8.

For travel, PJ and street photography, smaller is wiser. The D800 is not smaller and wiser (except maybe for the DR feature - a feature, which can be implemented in the smallest of cameras anyway.) It's as bulky and complicated as ever.

Right. But if you're saying that everyone has to have a little tiny camera just because that suits your kind of photography, then you can get lost. Why do DSLRs have to be a "dying species" just because you want something smaller?

All this to say that Nikon may be showing prowess, but it ain't innovative at all.

I think you're confusing "innovative" with "smaller". I love optical viewfinders, because you're looking at the real world, not a digitised version of it. Now, there may be benefits to EVFs in the future (when the resolution and refresh rates have improved), but they are not inherently better .

A camera like the D800 (or perhaps 5DIII) is close to perfect for me. There will never be a little tiny camera that suits me better than a DSLR, no matter how technology evolves. I've got big hands, and I HATE little tiny cameras!

Oh, and if you want 500mm on your little FF camera, the lens will be the same size as it is for my DSLR. That'll handle well!!!

SB

expro Senior Member • Posts: 1,535
Re: D800 - a dying species

to op:

oh dear small is innovative... and innovative but not small is not innovative...

maybe you are the one who wants the very latest show off small and 'innovative' gadget and not the better DSLR dinosaur after all.....

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JackM
JackM Veteran Member • Posts: 7,999
But I can't do this with a point-n-shoot

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topstuff Senior Member • Posts: 1,209
Re: But I can't do this with a point-n-shoot

Lovely pictures, every one of them.

But there is nothing there could not have been taken with a smaller camera.

That camera may not precisely exist right now, but they are coming. Already cameras like the Panny G3 and Olympus OM-D are getting very, very close and they are much, much smaller than a FF or APSH Canon.

McJ Forum Member • Posts: 70
Re: I don't agree at all.

Exactly.

A mirrorless thin FF body that looks like the Nex-series don't make much sense considering the size of the lenses.

Just look at the Nex with the relatively small 18-200mm attached, besides looking ridiculous, that is not an ergonomic system with such small grip and no balance between body and lens.

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JackM
JackM Veteran Member • Posts: 7,999
Re: But I can't do this with a point-n-shoot

topstuff wrote:

Lovely pictures, every one of them.

Thanks.

But there is nothing there could not have been taken with a smaller camera.

I don't think you know what you're looking at.

1, 180mm, f/2.8, ISO 800

2, 160mm, f/2.8, servo AF

3, 150mm, f/2.8, servo AF

4, ISO 1600

5 & 6, 35mm f/1.4

7, ISO 3200, servo AF

8, 17mm.

That camera may not precisely exist right now, but they are coming. Already cameras like the Panny G3 and Olympus OM-D are getting very, very close and they are much, much smaller than a FF or APSH Canon.

You're not getting any of those pictures on m4/3, sorry.

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FeedMe Senior Member • Posts: 2,474
Re: But I can't do this with a point-n-shoot

You could get all those on a p&s, just not with those numbers..

JackM wrote:

topstuff wrote:

Lovely pictures, every one of them.

Thanks.

But there is nothing there could not have been taken with a smaller camera.

I don't think you know what you're looking at.

1, 180mm, f/2.8, ISO 800

2, 160mm, f/2.8, servo AF

3, 150mm, f/2.8, servo AF

4, ISO 1600

5 & 6, 35mm f/1.4

7, ISO 3200, servo AF

8, 17mm.

That camera may not precisely exist right now, but they are coming. Already cameras like the Panny G3 and Olympus OM-D are getting very, very close and they are much, much smaller than a FF or APSH Canon.

You're not getting any of those pictures on m4/3, sorry.

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JackM
JackM Veteran Member • Posts: 7,999
Re: But I can't do this with a point-n-shoot

FeedMe wrote:

You could get all those on a p&s, just not with those numbers..

or quality.

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JackM
JackM Veteran Member • Posts: 7,999
Re: I don't agree at all.

McJ wrote:

Exactly.

A mirrorless thin FF body that looks like the Nex-series don't make much sense considering the size of the lenses.

Just look at the Nex with the relatively small 18-200mm attached, besides looking ridiculous, that is not an ergonomic system with such small grip and no balance between body and lens.

I mostly agree, the limiting factor is the physics of glass lenses. We'll have to come up with something totally game changing in the lens department first. Like liquid lenses or Fresnel lenses or something.

But, when you have a large-ish lens on a small body, like the NEX with 18-200, don't you just basically hold and balance the whole shmear with your left hand and only operate it with your right? Seems like not such a big deal?

I'd like a digital full frame Pentax MX please,

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Bassman2003 Contributing Member • Posts: 971
Re: D800 - a dying species

To the OP, I think we will get changes in this space, but smaller is not always better. As already stated, I actually prefer a larger body for a lot of shooting situations. I have no need to carry my camera around in a pocket.

Also, your path is a path of compromises. Larger, heavy optics are just better. That is why professionals use them. I have the feeling that you want best of the photo world in a tiny box. That might happen in the distant future, but as for right now physics is still at play.

I see this in the video world. Everybody seems to want these tiny bodies or even shooting with these same DSLRs. And what do you see? A cottage industry of gizmos to be able to hold the things steady to shoot with! Outside of static cinema production I get the best footage from using a full size broadcast camera with a large barrel focus ring on the lens. The camera has inertia when it moves and you use it with more muscles. This makes it easier to control.

My overall point is that professional usage of imaging products will always have a different set of needs than consumer use. So I hope you are not correct!

AngryJeffrey Junior Member • Posts: 25
Re: D800 - a dying species

Michel Savage wrote:

With the D800, we have reached the apex of DSLR, and from there, the DSLR species will be slowly dying.

Why?

The camera of the future is full frame, mirrorless, uses live view instead of a viewfinder, has an articulated screen, is very very small, highly portabgle and discrete, as an ISO of 12 800 equivalent to ISO 50 in terms of noise.

Nonsense. And a fundamental loss of grip on consumer psychology.

There will be a market for the small, mirrorless bodies, no doubt. But to think the dSLR market will dry up as a result? Not a chance.

Each appeals to a different segment and/or individual need. Aside from the obvious physical balancing issues involved with a large lens and a tiny body, there is a psychological component to holding something like a dSLR that is appealing. Its size and functionality convey complexity and professionalism. Holding a mirrorless rectangle, regardless of it's capabilities, still feels quite amateurish. Superficial as that may be, it is a driving force in the market.

And let's not forget analog controls. A touch screen LCD and a few small buttons are fine for vacation snapshots. But that isn't so satisfying (or accommodating) when you want to get serious.

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