need gamut info for wide gamut monitors.

Started Feb 8, 2012 | Discussions
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glowing minerals New Member • Posts: 7
need gamut info for wide gamut monitors.

Hi all,

I'm a collector of fluorescent minerals, rocks which glow under ultraviolet light. Many such specimens make high contrast, high color saturation subjects for photographs. I'm looking to buy a new home computer system, one that can display and print such photos accurately. But I have not yet been able to find sufficient believable gamut information on wide-gamut monitors.

As an example, Dell claims its Ultrasharp U2410 monitor can display 110% of CIE1976. I have pretty good semi-quantitative knowledge of chromaticity diagrams and color perception. With current technology, it is impossible for a computer monitor to display 100% of CIE1976 (another name for CIE u'v'), let alone 110%. Dell also claims the monitor can display 96% of Adobe RGB; this I have no trouble believing, but it contradicts the 110% of CIE1976 claim. Asus claims one of its monitors displays 98% of Adobe RGB; also believable. Now xx% of Adobe RGB tells me a monitor covers so much of Adobe RGB color space, but not what, how much or if it covers anything beyond Adobe RGB color space.

Where/how do I get information on what a monitor's gamut actually is? I contacted Dell three different ways; they were no help. I have not yet tried contacting Asus. CIE chromaticity diagrams with monitor gamut super-imposed (like what's shown here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_rgb
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srgb

with CIE coordinates of the monitor's red, green, and blue primaries would help a lot.

thanks.
---
Bill.

Sandy Senior Member • Posts: 2,118
Re: need gamut info for wide gamut monitors.

you should get some of this information at:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/index2.html under monitor reviews.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews.htm also includes some gamut information.
--
Sandy

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bronxbombers Forum Pro • Posts: 18,226
Re: need gamut info for wide gamut monitors.

glowing minerals wrote:

Hi all,

I'm a collector of fluorescent minerals, rocks which glow under ultraviolet light. Many such specimens make high contrast, high color saturation subjects for photographs. I'm looking to buy a new home computer system, one that can display and print such photos accurately. But I have not yet been able to find sufficient believable gamut information on wide-gamut monitors.

As an example, Dell claims its Ultrasharp U2410 monitor can display 110% of CIE1976. I have pretty good semi-quantitative knowledge of chromaticity diagrams and color perception. With current technology, it is impossible for a computer monitor to display 100% of CIE1976 (another name for CIE u'v'), let alone 110%. Dell also claims the monitor can display 96% of Adobe RGB; this I have no trouble believing, but it contradicts the 110% of CIE1976 claim. Asus claims one of its monitors displays 98% of Adobe RGB; also believable. Now xx% of Adobe RGB tells me a monitor covers so much of Adobe RGB color space, but not what, how much or if it covers anything beyond Adobe RGB color space.

Where/how do I get information on what a monitor's gamut actually is? I contacted Dell three different ways; they were no help. I have not yet tried contacting Asus. CIE chromaticity diagrams with monitor gamut super-imposed (like what's shown here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_rgb
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srgb

with CIE coordinates of the monitor's red, green, and blue primaries would help a lot.

thanks.
---
Bill.

Also important is the 3D gamut view, for instance a 2D view of AdobeRGB makes you think you gain nothing for reds compared to sRGB when you actually gain quite a lot.

anyway most of the 95% AdobeRGB wide gamut monitors gamuts 2D plot looks like AdobeRGB plot only with green primary moved in and over a little, while most 98% gamut AdobeRGB ones look the same up top but extend the red primary down and out as seen here for NEC PA241W primaries and 2D plots in xy and uv:

I think the RGB LED wide gamuts have an even larger gamut.

fluroescent colors can be might tricky for a monitor

bronxbombers Forum Pro • Posts: 18,226
Re: need gamut info for wide gamut monitors.

Sandy wrote:

you should get some of this information at:
http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/index2.html under monitor reviews.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews.htm also includes some gamut information.
--
Sandy

Word of warning is that TFT, at the very least, used to measure wide gamut monitors with colorimeters not tuned to wide gamut and with software not applying any compensation so lots of their, slightly older for sure, information on wide gamuts was (is?) all wrong.

Wayne Larmon Veteran Member • Posts: 9,403
Here is how to see 3D gamut plots.

bronxbombers wrote:

Also important is the 3D gamut view, for instance a 2D view of AdobeRGB makes you think you gain nothing for reds compared to sRGB when you actually gain quite a lot.

You can see 3D gamut plots by going here:

http://www.iccview.de/content/view/3/7/lang,en/

and uploading any ICC profiles you want to look at. And compare against some standard color spaces, like sRGB and Adobe RGB (1998).

TFT Central has a downloadable database of ICC profiles from monitors they've measured.

http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/icc_profiles.htm

So you can see for yourself. (Plus or minus the caveats that bronxbomber raised in another post about TFT's measurements.)

Wayne

glowing minerals OP New Member • Posts: 7
Re: need gamut info for wide gamut monitors.

Thank-you for the links. I looked briefly tonight; I'll study them more closely over the next several days. I'm familiar and comfortable with 2-D CIE chromaticity plots, but those 3-D gamut plots(CIELAB) will take some getting used to.

Bill.

glowing minerals OP New Member • Posts: 7
Re: Here is how to see 3D gamut plots.

Thank-you, Wayne.

My old home computer can't quite handle the first web site. I'll try them out during breaks on my workstation at work over the next several days. Those CIE plots in your screen captures look to be just what I'm looking for. The second site looks informative and helpful in other ways, too.

Bill.

glowing minerals OP New Member • Posts: 7
Re: need gamut info for wide gamut monitors.

Thank-you.

This is the first I've heard of an RGB LED monitor. Who makes such a monitor, and what's it called?

Yes, fluorescent mineral photos are difficult. Difficult to take, difficult to display, and difficult to print. The reds (Eucryptite, Tugtupite, Corundum var. Ruby, etc.), violets (Agrellite and others), and blues (Hardystonite, Fluorite, and others) are the toughest. High contrast (Esperite and Hardystonite together, Calcite and Willemite together) is also very challenging.

Bill.

bronxbombers Forum Pro • Posts: 18,226
Re: need gamut info for wide gamut monitors.

glowing minerals wrote:

Thank-you.

This is the first I've heard of an RGB LED monitor. Who makes such a monitor, and what's it called?

Yes, fluorescent mineral photos are difficult. Difficult to take, difficult to display, and difficult to print. The reds (Eucryptite, Tugtupite, Corundum var. Ruby, etc.), violets (Agrellite and others), and blues (Hardystonite, Fluorite, and others) are the toughest. High contrast (Esperite and Hardystonite together, Calcite and Willemite together) is also very challenging.

Bill.

part of me thinks that some of them would be beyond anything any monitor can show, i think certain fluorescents might not even be able to be mimicked by 3 primary system, although i could be wrong

Wayne Larmon Veteran Member • Posts: 9,403
Re: Here is how to see 3D gamut plots.

glowing minerals wrote:

Thank-you, Wayne.

My old home computer can't quite handle the first web site.

If you want to see 3D gamut plots you have several choices:

1. Install a free VRML viewer. VRML is almost obsolete except for displaying 3D gamut plots. For this it works really well. Also, Dry Creek Photo has a bunch of 3D color gamuts in VRML
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/tools/printer_gamuts/

I am using the Cortona 3D VRML viewer and it works on both my 32 bit XP and my 64 bit Win 7 systems.

2. If you use Windows XP, you can install Microsoft's free

Color Control Panel Applet for Windows XP.
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=12714

This gives you more control over installing profiles and also contains a 3D profile viewer that will let you compare two profiles. Win 7 and Vista don't have any built in capability to view profile gamuts.

3. Use a Mac. Mac's ColorSync will display gamut plots.

4. Buy commercial profile management software. The cheapest commercial program I know about is ColorThink 2

http://www2.chromix.com/colorthink/std/?-session=SessID:48E404C2051b011C70HjV3A7A5B1

As far as I know. If anybody else knows of any other options for viewing gamut plots, I'd like to hear about them.

I'll try them out during breaks on my workstation at work over the next several days. Those CIE plots in your screen captures look to be just what I'm looking for.

bronxbomber provided the CIE plot screen shots.

If you get a VRML viewer working, the Argyll color management system has several utility programs that will generate gamut plots in 3D. You can compare as many gamuts as you want in a single graph.

http://www.argyllcms.com/

You don't need to install anything. It comes as a zip file. All you need to do is unzip it any put the programs you are interested in some place on your path. Look at

http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/iccgamut.html

and

http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/viewgam.html

Run profiles through iccgamut to make .gam files. Then use viewgam to combine as many .gam files as you want into a single VRML file. IMO, this works really well because gamut plots in VRML can be full screen (or larger) and you can study the gamut plots as close as you want.

And if you know about the innards of ICC profiles, other Argyll utility programs give you a good head start at dissecting. Such as

iccdump Dump the contents of an ICC profile as text.

(Also note that VRML files are plain ASCII. Just saying.)

Wayne

glowing minerals OP New Member • Posts: 7
how to get 2-D slice through gamut vrml files?

I've wrestled considerably with trying to view a horizontal slice (constant luminance) through a monitor's gamut retrieved as a vrml file. I've had no luck with this. Could someone please point me to a Windows XP 2007 Firefox or IE freeware plugin that will allow me to select and view constant luminance planes from a gamut vrml file?

Or how can I get gamut plots like what bronxbombers showed in his response to the original question?

thanks,
Bill.

technoid Senior Member • Posts: 1,835
Re: how to get 2-D slice through gamut vrml files?

glowing minerals wrote:

I've wrestled considerably with trying to view a horizontal slice (constant luminance) through a monitor's gamut retrieved as a vrml file. I've had no luck with this. Could someone please point me to a Windows XP 2007 Firefox or IE freeware plugin that will allow me to select and view constant luminance planes from a gamut vrml file?

Or how can I get gamut plots like what bronxbombers showed in his response to the original question?

thanks,
Bill.

You can do this with ProfileMaker 5's Editor in the "demo" mode. It lets you examine gamuts and compare them to other gamuts. 2D slices, Lab as well as xy, uv. Generally, monitor gamuts are well described by the 3, xy coordinates of their saturated RGB colors so you will usually see just an xy (or uv) chart. Printer gamuts are not describable that way because, unlike monitors, as you increase brightness the maximum saturation of a reproduceable, perfect printer, color MUST decrease. With a monitor any color can retain saturation (as defined by xy location) until one or more RGB channels reaches it's maximum.

glowing minerals OP New Member • Posts: 7
Re: how to get 2-D slice through gamut vrml files?

I have not been able to find anywhere from which to download ProfileMaker 5. I asked one my more internet-savvy co-workers. He came up with the same result. The product is discontinued.

technoid Senior Member • Posts: 1,835
Re: how to get 2-D slice through gamut vrml files?

glowing minerals wrote:

I have not been able to find anywhere from which to download ProfileMaker 5. I asked one my more internet-savvy co-workers. He came up with the same result. The product is discontinued.

You can download it from x-rite's site. It's listed under discontinued products. You can't buy it but you can use it without a dongle in limited modes.

http://www.xrite.com/product_overview.aspx?Action=support&ID=757

glowing minerals OP New Member • Posts: 7
Re: how to get 2-D slice through gamut vrml files?

Thank-you. I will give that a try.

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