X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Started Feb 5, 2012 | Discussions
PAUL TILL
PAUL TILL Veteran Member • Posts: 9,286
X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

FujiFilm, If you can't produce a camera without major flaws go back to making rolls of film and leave the production of digital cameras to the professionals.

Your reputation is rapidly going down the toilet.

Paul.
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alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

lol....very well said. I hope someone there is watching!
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Keir76 New Member • Posts: 15
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

I was all set to buy an XS-1, now I'm thinking the only way of guaranteeing a high quality camera is to get a DSLR. I dont like the thought of spending so much money on something with such obvious flaws. Now contemplating a Canon 600d or its successor...which I know will end up much more expensive but it'll be worth it in the end I reckon.

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PAUL TILL
OP PAUL TILL Veteran Member • Posts: 9,286
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Both the links below are for DSLR's with enough zoom to keep you happy until you decide which long zoom lens to opt for.

http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/75332/show.html
http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/80184/show.html

The D90 (£699) is very good value and a very good camera, the 600D (£799) should be good as well but I've never owned a Canon (they seem very cheap & plasticky).

If you don't need the zoom right away and you're on a budget the D5100 (£592) has a very good sensor as does the K5 (£750) for a little more.

http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/80903/show.html
http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/79346/show.html

Some of the DSLR's above are cheaper than the X-S1 and the others are not a lot more, you need to decide what focal length you shoot at most, do you want fast glass (yes) what's available and at what cost for the system you chose to go with.

Personally I would go with Nikon but it's up to you.

Paul.

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alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Yep, and the other thing is, if you have an interchangeable lens camera, at least you can replace the lens if it has this kind of issue.
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alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Guess you're not big on M4/3 or Sony NEX or the the Samsung ILC cameras, are you?
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Keir76 New Member • Posts: 15
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Thanks! I've been wondering if my grandad's camera has any decent lenses. He passed away just over 10 years ago and was massively into photography. I'm pretty sure he has a very nice Nikon 35mm film SLR in my dad's attic with potentially some nice lenses to go with it.

I could either use the lenses with a new Nikon DSLR or sell them to put towards some nice glass on another brand. I'm sure my dad wont mind what I do with them.

The massive size of DSLR sensors should more than make up for the lack of a huge zoom lens with smaller sensor bridge cameras.

I'll probably get a Panasonic TS3 as well for just a stick it in the other half's handbag point and shoot and I can take it snorkelling/diving on holiday as long as I dont go too deep.

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m7svk Forum Member • Posts: 82
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Looks like my options are shrink to tamron 18-270 pzd for canon 600d. I was waiting for Paul to prove Fuji can produce great ultrazoom which will save me to carry 2-3 lenses, but different is true, but I still want to believe MAYBE something change before april and our holiday.. MAYBE...

alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

If you want a good bridge camera with lots of manual controls and RAW get the Panasonic FZ150, it's a classic and has the kind of zoom which actually doesnt have these side effects (as new anyway.... over time, who knows.)
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PAUL TILL
OP PAUL TILL Veteran Member • Posts: 9,286
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

alexisgreat wrote:

Guess you're not big on M4/3 or Sony NEX or the the Samsung ILC cameras, are you?

I've had them but they're not as good as a DSLR. The reason people go for them is there size not their IQ. The NEX cameras have the IQ but are just plain awkward with a big lens on the front.

Paul.

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PAUL TILL
OP PAUL TILL Veteran Member • Posts: 9,286
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

m7svk wrote:

Looks like my options are shrink to tamron 18-270 pzd for canon 600d. I was waiting for Paul to prove Fuji can produce great ultrazoom which will save me to carry 2-3 lenses, but different is true, but I still want to believe MAYBE something change before april and our holiday.. MAYBE...

Even with the droop the X-S1 is still the best bridge camera out there, it's the only one with a usable EVF the IQ is still more than enough for most people.

I'm just disappointed because the "broadcast quality" lens is Fuji's big selling point for this camera and it's the only part of the X-S1 that's flawed. My none functioning buttons don't seem to be playing up any more (perhaps it was the cold weather) and everything else is working A OK.

Paul.
--

alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Having had a 4/3 DSLR (Olympus E-520) I can concur their Image Quality doesnt match up to their APS-C counterparts..... which puzzles me, because the sensors aren't really that much smaller for their DR to be so low (less than Fuji compacts!) and their noise to be that much worse than APS-C. I wish they would have had better image quality because I'm so used to 4:3 ratio sensors, since I exclusively print at 7.5x10, which requires too much cropping for my taste from a 3:2 sensor. I heard the new Panasonic has good image quality (up near the level of APS-C) but it's somewhat expensive. This is the camera I'm talking about:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcg3/

Conclusion - Pros

Very good image quality with impressive high ISO performance
Well-implemented touchscreen interface
Fast-focusing AF system (for its class)
Improved skin tone rendering
AF point can be positioned along the edge of the frame
Touch AF can be disabled
Can shoot 4fps (but sadly not in live view)
Ability to define two custom function buttons
Full 1080i AVCHD video from 30fps output
iA mode allows you to adjust aperture during video capture
Picture-in-Picture manual focus mode

Conclusion - Pros

Very good image quality with impressive high ISO performance
Well-implemented touchscreen interface
Fast-focusing AF system (for its class)
Improved skin tone rendering
AF point can be positioned along the edge of the frame
Touch AF can be disabled
Can shoot 4fps (but sadly not in live view)
Ability to define two custom function buttons
Full 1080i AVCHD video from 30fps output
iA mode allows you to adjust aperture during video capture
Picture-in-Picture manual focus mode
Conclusion - Cons

Poor JPEG rendering at high ISOs
Lacks a dedicated AF/AE lock button
No eye sensor to switch between viewfinder and LCD
No external mic input
Small grip makes hand-held use of larger lenses awkward
Flush design of DISP. button makes it hard to press
Long wait times between image bursts in Raw mode
20fps SH mode yields poor image quality
Continuous tracking performance suffers in low-light, low contrast scenarios
Overall conclusion

The G3 occupies a unique place in Panasonic's G-series lineup. With its impressive 16MP sensor and high quality built-in electronic viewfinder, this model would seem to hold appeal to DSLR owners looking for a lighter carry-everywhere camera. Yet it continues Panasonic's trend towards ever-smaller bodies with fewer on-camera controls, perhaps suggesting a good fit for less-experienced shooters looking to move up from a compact point and shoot. While the needs of either type of user inevitably diverge at some point in terms of features, performance and of course, price, there exist a wide range of attributes that can be embraced equally by both camps.

The G3 is a satisfying camera to use. Small and light enough to carry around all day, it can produce usable images even at the high end of its ISO range. On-camera dials and buttons provide easy access to basic camera and exposure settings. When used in full auto mode, the G3's autofocus and metering system do an admirable job under a wide range of conditions of producing a pleasing image. The G3's 16MP of resolution gives very good rendering of fine image detail and allows you to make significant crops while maintaining enough pixels for a high quality print. Continuing in the G-series tradition, the G3 is a camera that you can power on and begin using without having to pore over every detail of the user manual.

More advanced features are available for those who wish to establish more control over the camera's operation. And while users with a preference for knobs and dials versus menu items may find the G3 slightly 'down market', there is no denying that this camera delivers high quality images with a minimum of fuss. In our opinion, however, to get the most out of this camera you will need to move beyond the kit lens.

Image Quality

Since its inception, the allure of Panasonic's G-series lineup, indeed the Micro Four Thirds system in general, has been the potential for DSLR image quality in a compact-sized body. Yet, the sensor technology has typically lagged behind the APS-C chips that dominate the entry-level DSLR segment. The arrival of the G3, with its all-new 16 MP CMOS sensor, generated a lot of interest within the dpreview office and the market as a whole.

Images from the G3 represent a clear step forward in comparison to output from the G2. Fine detail is preserved throughout a wide range of ISOs. Noise-related artifacts simply are not an issue at ISO 800 and below. In low-light scenarios that demand a high ISO the G3 delivers the most impressive output we have yet seen from a Micro Four Thirds camera aside from Panasonic's own GH2. The G3's rendering of finely detailed subjects stands up surprisingly well against entry-level DSLRs. Along with the more expensive GH2, the G3 represents a benchmark for Micro Four Thirds image quality at this point in time.

At low ISO values, the G3's image quality compares very well with even the best APS-C based DSLRs in its price range. Once the ISO sensitivity gets above 800, the benefits of the larger APS-C chips do become apparent though, and the G3 cannot touch the likes of the Nikon D5100 when the going gets really tough, at ISO 6400 and above. Let's not understate this achievement, however. The G3 comes as close to entry-level DSLR image quality as we have seen in a comparably priced camera.
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alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Do you remember awhile back when that one guy made a thread or two about the X-S1 having a $30,000 lens? Ha!

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alexisgreat Veteran Member • Posts: 6,459
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

This is another good Panny, which will most likely be replaced by the GH3 at some point this year.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/PanasonicDMCGH2/

Conclusion - Pros

Excellent multi-aspect ratio sensor with good resolution and high-ISO performance in compact body
Good build quality and handling
'Hands on' interface offers plenty of physical control points

Advanced and effective touch-screen implementation (but can be ignored if not required)
Large, high-resolution EVF
Much improved CD-AF system (compared to GH1/G2)
Exceptionally 'deep' feature set allows a lot of customization
Fast and responsive operation
Excellent raw image quality at ISOs up to 3200
Versatile 1080i/p video capability with excellent built-in stereo microphone
Exceptional amount of manual control over video shooting

Conclusion - Pros

Excellent multi-aspect ratio sensor with good resolution and high-ISO performance in compact body
Good build quality and handling
'Hands on' interface offers plenty of physical control points

Advanced and effective touch-screen implementation (but can be ignored if not required)
Large, high-resolution EVF
Much improved CD-AF system (compared to GH1/G2)
Exceptionally 'deep' feature set allows a lot of customization
Fast and responsive operation
Excellent raw image quality at ISOs up to 3200
Versatile 1080i/p video capability with excellent built-in stereo microphone
Exceptional amount of manual control over video shooting
Conclusion - Cons

Uninspiring JPEGs in some situations mean Raw conversion needed to get best results
Auto White Balance can be too blue, especially outdoors
24P Cinema mode only available in Manual Movie Mode (set on exposure mode dial)

Although the finish has been improved, plastic body still feels cheaper than some competitors
Only one control dial
No PC flash sync socket
Overall conclusion

The GH2 might not be a revolutionary development (in all essential points it is very closely related to its predecessor, the GH1) but we're confident in saying that it is the best mirrorless system camera that we've ever tested, bar none. With the GH2 Panasonic has finally demonstrated that it is able to compete with the APS-C format competition when it comes both to resolution and critical image quality. Although the GH2's Micro Four Thirds sensor is smaller than those found in cameras like the Canon EOS 60D and Nikon D7000, it runs them both pretty close. Up to ISO 3200 in fact, we'd stick our necks out and say that the GH2 can hold its own against any of the current crop of APS-C format cameras on the market, which is high praise indeed.

Obviously, one of the major selling points of the GH2 is its versatile video mode and in this respect, we have very few complaints. The GH1 was an impressive video camera with a large following amongst both casual and serious filmmakers, and the GH2 improves upon it in several ways. It offers a more convenient codec, and improved high ISO image quality, amongst other, smaller tweaks. Before we tested it, we would have said that the GH2 looked a little overpriced. Having been immersed in its capabilities now for several weeks, we're less concerned. All things considered - the impressive depth of its feature set, effective touch-screen ergonomics and its excellent still and video image quality - we think it represents very good value for money.

Image Quality

In terms of the critical output of their sensors, Panasonic's Micro Four Thirds cameras have tended to lag behind APS-C and full-frame competitors. Typically, in our testing, we have complained about high noise levels at medium to high ISO settings, restricted dynamic range, and poor in-camera JPEG processing.

In specification terms alone, Panasonic has made some major leaps forward with the GH2. At 18MP, it has the highest pixel count of any Four Thirds or Micro Four Thirds camera, and it is is only the second model to offer an output resolution of greater than 12MP. As far as ISO sensitivity is concerned, the GH2's maximum ISO setting of 12,800 (equivalent) is also the highest of any of its brethren. Happily, the advances that Panasonic has made in specification pay off in meaningfully better image quality than we've come to expect from other cameras in the G-series.

As far as noise is concerned, the GH2 offers the best performance that we've ever seen from a Micro Four Thirds camera. Up to ISO 800, images are essentially noise free, and although noise is visible in images shot at ISO 1600 and 3200, it is only at ISO 6400 and above that it really becomes problematic.

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m7svk Forum Member • Posts: 82
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

PAUL TILL wrote:

m7svk wrote:

Looks like my options are shrink to tamron 18-270 pzd for canon 600d. I was waiting for Paul to prove Fuji can produce great ultrazoom which will save me to carry 2-3 lenses, but different is true, but I still want to believe MAYBE something change before april and our holiday.. MAYBE...

Even with the droop the X-S1 is still the best bridge camera out there, it's the only one with a usable EVF the IQ is still more than enough for most people.

I'm just disappointed because the "broadcast quality" lens is Fuji's big selling point for this camera and it's the only part of the X-S1 that's flawed. My none functioning buttons don't seem to be playing up any more (perhaps it was the cold weather) and everything else is working A OK.

Paul.
--

Thanks Paul, I am really appreciate your feedback, I am following this forum very closely as my old s6500 left a lot great memories, and as camera was much better friend as nikon or canon ultrazooms in same era..

PAUL TILL
OP PAUL TILL Veteran Member • Posts: 9,286
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

The G3 is a nice camera and with the 14-42mm (28-84mm) & 45-200mm (90-400mm) lens is almost the same price as the X-S1. It will have better IQ but you will need the £450 100-300mm 9200-600mm) to get the reach of the X-S1 and with a wide end of 200mm you're going to need a second lens for days out.

Paul.
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FeedMe Senior Member • Posts: 2,474
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

PAUL TILL wrote:

m7svk wrote:

Looks like my options are shrink to tamron 18-270 pzd for canon 600d. I was waiting for Paul to prove Fuji can produce great ultrazoom which will save me to carry 2-3 lenses, but different is true, but I still want to believe MAYBE something change before april and our holiday.. MAYBE...

Even with the droop the X-S1 is still the best bridge camera out there, it's the only one with a usable EVF the IQ is still more than enough for most people.

Funnily enough the Lumix DMC-FZ150 beat it by 5 points in Snapsort..

I'm just disappointed because the "broadcast quality" lens is Fuji's big selling point for this camera and it's the only part of the X-S1 that's flawed. My none functioning buttons don't seem to be playing up any more (perhaps it was the cold weather) and everything else is working A OK.

Paul.
--

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 18,313
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

Keir76 wrote:

I was all set to buy an XS-1, now I'm thinking the only way of guaranteeing a high quality camera is to get a DSLR. I dont like the thought of spending so much money on something with such obvious flaws. Now contemplating a Canon 600d or its successor...which I know will end up much more expensive but it'll be worth it in the end I reckon.

With the 600D and three basic 'kit-level' lenses (18-55 IS, 55-250 IS, and 50mm f1.8) you will be set for some time to come. The other day someone in FTF posted that they had bought the X10 and were now going to buy the XS-1. Those two cameras together cost more than the 600D and the lenses I listed. I waited a long time to go to dslr because I bought into the 'expensive' argument but it really isn't so. I've got a 450D with the above lenses and a couple others I bought used; polarizing filters, spare battery and charger; infra red wireless remote and a bag to hold everything and I've got less than $1000 invested. That's not even getting into image quality.

I don't want to start a dslr vs bridge cam debate, but since you mentioned a specific camera I thought I would comment.

AdamT
AdamT Forum Pro • Posts: 58,986
They've always done it

It's nothing new

MX1200 and predecessors crashed and went haywire when moving mode dial too fast

4700Z and direct successors were the first with the dusty sensor issue, the M603 was the worst

S602 with the " 1 battery goes flat" syndrome due to a bad design in the casing, also suffered the dust CCD issue badly and was the first cam to have dodgy connections

F700, S7000 and S20 Pro sensor failure and first of the backup battery failure alongside XD cams of the same era like the F810 etc

S2 Pro sensor and controls failure, both it and the S3 had ports fall into the body

S9500 dreaded command dial failure , maybe fixed in the 9600

F10/11, ribbons disconnect, more dusty sensor issues and backup battery issues

All had sample variation with decentering with lenses even as far back as the 4700Z .. there were loadsa other Fujis with lens, electronics and usually poor construction issus as internally Fuji cameras have always been built like crap, even the ones which were well made on the outside like the 6800Z, 6900Z, F810, F11 etc

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Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 18,313
Re: X1ORB & XSAG-1 What next?

PAUL TILL wrote:

Both the links below are for DSLR's with enough zoom to keep you happy until you decide which long zoom lens to opt for.

http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/75332/show.html
http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/80184/show.html

The D90 (£699) is very good value and a very good camera, the 600D (£799) should be good as well but I've never owned a Canon (they seem very cheap & plasticky).

Canon's cheapest dslr (I think it's the 1000D?) is said to be on the plasticky side but most of the Rebels are better than that. My 450D almost certainly doesn't have the feel of Canon's more 'pro' models but it doesn't feel cheap to me. The controls work nicely, it has a good grip, the body doesn't 'creak', covers and latches fit and work properly.

One online video site tested a pair of entry-level dslr's- a Nikon and a Canon Rebel - and abused them ridiculously, including the guy strapping them to the bottom of his shoes and walking around on pavement with them. Both cameras passed this and other equally abusive tests over and over.

If you don't need the zoom right away and you're on a budget the D5100 (£592) has a very good sensor as does the K5 (£750) for a little more.

http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/80903/show.html
http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/79346/show.html

Some of the DSLR's above are cheaper than the X-S1 and the others are not a lot more, you need to decide what focal length you shoot at most, do you want fast glass (yes) what's available and at what cost for the system you chose to go with.

Personally I would go with Nikon but it's up to you.

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