Nikon Spanked By m4/3 in DPR Review?

Started Jan 21, 2012 | Discussions
sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,890
Nikon 1 does have better ISO 3200

Kwick1 wrote:

It's unbelievable to me that DPR said that the Nikons had better high ISO performance than m43. Did they even look at their own comparison tool? It's not even close. The Nikons turn to mush while even the E-PL1 are great.

My own eyes from looking at RAW and JPEG tell me that Nikon 1 has slightly better ISO 3200 than the Olympus E-PM1 or E-P3. This is just an indictment of the pathetic and old sensor in the Olympus cameras. I hope they have something a lot better in the OM-D series.

Of course, the Olympus camera is a WAY better low light camera when you put on the 25mm f/1.4 lens.

sigala1 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,890
Nikon 1 sounds pointless, even the focus system not impressive

Even the hybrid focus system here that some forum posters have been jealous of doesn't sound that impressive to me. It's designed to capture shots quickly in good light, but the CDAF aspect of the Nikon system sounds like it's way behind m43.

The Nikon 1 is the same size as m43 even though the sensor is a lot smaller.

$600 for entry level Nikon 1, OUCH!

No fast primes, and you'll never get shallow DOF like you can get with some of the fast m43 primes.

Sounds like the menu system really sucks.

On a square millimeter basis, the Nikon 1 sensor way outperforms the 12 MP m43 sensor, but hopefully the new OM-D series will fix that problem.

Dolan Halbrook
Dolan Halbrook Senior Member • Posts: 1,212
Re: Narrow in one sense

LincolnB wrote:

micksh6 wrote:

LincolnB wrote:

True, but they'd better be outdoor kids. DPR wasn't happy with indoor performance at all.

It must be added that they better be outdoor kids in bright sunlight. According to review overcast is a borderline where PDAF can be deactivated and N1 will trail behind other MILCs in CDAF.

Although for indoor use shooting kids, the V1 does have a really nice accessory fill flash which, I believe, can provide AF assistance. Might be enough to push it back into PDAF??

Then it gets interesting. Is Nikon 1's CDAF inferior to other vendor's CDAF?

Yes, many owners of both systems have reported roughly this (in terms of speed):

Nikon 1 PDAF > m43 (latest gen) CDAF > Nikon 1 PDAF

Not sure how much each one lags the other, but that seems to be the general concensus.

Nikon really, really needs to release some fast primes pronto for this system to outgrow the early adopters.
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Jogger
Jogger Veteran Member • Posts: 8,441
Re: Nikon Spanked By m4/3 in DPR Review?

with the asthon kutcher factor, the score would easily be in the 80s

ADSinger wrote:

Well at least by the numbers. We complained that DPR always seemed to give low 70's scores to all m4/3 reviews. So today they test the Nikons and they're scored in the 60's! I guess we can stop complaining about any perceived bias against m4/3.

Alan.
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Mal_In_Oz Regular Member • Posts: 425
Re: Nikon Spanked By m4/3 in DPR Review?

I don't think m43 can gloat about the Nikon's poor review. I think the Nikon's result is based on current offerings that now include the NEX, and in that company the Nikon is looking a little pale.

I for one would have killed for that combined PDAF/CDAF system in my current Oly camera so I could use my 43 lenses more effectively. Thankfully, the new OMD is coming and rumors are suggesting it will have the focus system I need.

ADSinger wrote:

Well at least by the numbers. We complained that DPR always seemed to give low 70's scores to all m4/3 reviews. So today they test the Nikons and they're scored in the 60's! I guess we can stop complaining about any perceived bias against m4/3.

Alan.
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TEBnewyork
TEBnewyork Forum Pro • Posts: 11,337
Re: Nikon Spanked By m4/3 in DPR Review?

The camera is really only a firmware update away from being very good for the user base they were going after. The issue really stems from the algorithm used for shutter speed and ISO and can easily be fixed by Nikon. I started using a V1 to test it out for long lens use vs. M4/3. Two things I will say: the 30-110 lens is good/tiny/excellent VR. If you want to take advantage of the crop factor the 70-200 f2.8 (approx 190-540mm) makes for a very fast long lens. with very fast AF. I was testing out that combo last weekend.

These were essentially right out of the camera a crop on one.

100% crop

This was a mistake at f11 but also gives a decent idea of VR at 1/60 at about 520mm

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Franka T.L. Veteran Member • Posts: 8,148
Re: Nikon Spanked By m4/3 in DPR Review?

Well after reading the review, I have to say IQ alone the 1 series is actually not that bad, the RAW particularly is impressive for such small sensor which perform right up to ISO 1600 without giving much to the other larger sensor mirrorless.

The usability and human interface is definitely a letdown though and I wonder about the over simplified controls for such ( without corresponding soft control to counter )

Ok, now let's see a review of the Pentax Q, that would be interesting
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  • Franka -

HappyVan Senior Member • Posts: 2,397
DPR Fair Comment

Here are my comments about the review on the N1 forum

“IMO, the DPR conclusion is fair enough.

It may be disappointing to those of us who respect the strengths of N1. But, N1 1st Gen has done its job.

It has changed the face of the industry. It has met Nikons sales targets.

Its now up to Nikon to put out a 2nd Gen that would truly knock our socks off.

Meanwhile, thank you to Nikon.”

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1058&message=40378485

“DPR has many reservations

But, that is normal for 1st Gen products.

V1 has rating of 69 and J1 67. Nex5 was 71. Pany GF1 was 69 and EPL1 69. Interestingly, GF3 71 points and EPL3 72 points. NEX5N has risen to 79 points.

So, it's up to Nikon to build on N1 strengths and address various issues.

Good Luck.”

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1058&message=40378321

Jim4496 Contributing Member • Posts: 595
Re: What If They Were Samsungs?

ADSinger wrote:

Not to call out Samsung, but if these Nikons had come from a second tier manufacturer, they would be in jeopardy of being laughed off the market. At their price point and performance level they would be deemed unacceptable. But with the magic Nikon name they will undoubtedly sell well, perhaps better than the m4/3 models. Doebn't make 'em better though...

Alan.
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It is not the name that is magic, it is the marketing machine.

Was in local Best Buy and they have both Nikon 1's on display in a prime location at the end of an aisle along with the two available lenses.. By comparison they only have a GF3 (no G3, no GH2, no lenses) and this was located beside two Sony's. They also had an Oly m43 (didn't notice the model number) that didn't even have a lens on the camera.

So yes Nikon will sell well because of the better promotion in the store.

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limlh Senior Member • Posts: 1,157
Re: Can't believe what they said about high ISO

I wonder what m4/3 model is DPR referring to, but the V1's high ISO performance is way below that of the G3 or the GH2.

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Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 1,971
Re: Narrow in one sense

I think Nikon would be very happy with that conclusion - afterall this camera system was not targetted at people like us on DPR. Its for the masses.

You want a narrow targetted product for people like us - go see the Fuji X-Pro-1 system.

Ray Sachs wrote:

LincolnB wrote:

Their recommendation was limited to P&S upgraders shooting fast moving objects in bright light. That's narrow.

Narrow in the sense of what photography can be and is for a lot of US, but probably a pretty huge market segment - anyone with active kids who wants something better than a P&S would be a good candidate. Narrow and broad at the same time.

-Ray
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micksh6
micksh6 Senior Member • Posts: 2,613
Re: Nikon Spanked By m4/3 in DPR Review?

TEBnewyork wrote:

If you want to take advantage of the crop factor the 70-200 f2.8 (approx 190-540mm) makes for a very fast long lens.

Seriously? $2400 lens and 1.5 kilogram heft is all what I need to get advantage of Nikon 1 system? Where can I sign?

BTW, most of your shots are with F5.6. I guess you could as well use Nikon 70-300mm on DX body and crop a bit. 5 times cheaper, 3 times lighter.

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Jorginho Forum Pro • Posts: 14,673
Read the review: they clearly say that!

The y say that the Nikon is no match for the new Panasonic sensors.

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TEBnewyork
TEBnewyork Forum Pro • Posts: 11,337
Re: Nikon Spanked By m4/3 in DPR Review?

Those were a few of the shots I already had loaded on DPReview in the gallery while I was I was stuck with a long airport delay last night.

Sorry, this curiosity of the system got started with a trip that I made to Kenya where I've posted that I could have used about two more stops of available lens speed or ISO. On that trip I used the GH2 and 100-300 for 95% of my shooting and > 75% was at the 300mm end of the 100- 300 lens. What I could have used is a way to put the 100-300mm on a gimbal instead of handheld for everything. So, with the Nikon I get f2.8 and if I want to use a teleconverter I can still go longer and stay faster.

I did not in any way say that the Nikon 1 is more robust system etc.. I did say that I was testing it out for long lens use.

What I will say is that Nikon got it very right with the power they put into they system. On the G3 if I do a burst of just three shots even with a fast card I have to wait a while to review the shots and it gets annoying. Just not the case on the V1. The processing power they put in the camera should be a lesson to m4/3.

Silent shooting with the electronic shutter also works quite well.

Again - nowhere did I pronounce it a better system overall right now. But then again the combo of the V1 and NEX 7 will probably end up replacing my m4/3 kit.

micksh6 wrote:

TEBnewyork wrote:

If you want to take advantage of the crop factor the 70-200 f2.8 (approx 190-540mm) makes for a very fast long lens.

Seriously? $2400 lens and 1.5 kilogram heft is all what I need to get advantage of Nikon 1 system? Where can I sign?

BTW, most of your shots are with F5.6. I guess you could as well use Nikon 70-300mm on DX body and crop a bit. 5 times cheaper, 3 times lighter.

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TEBnewyork
TEBnewyork Forum Pro • Posts: 11,337
disregard n/t
n/t
illy
illy Forum Pro • Posts: 12,160
really......

i see images from the 1 system that are excellent, i see images from m4/3rds that are excellent, i don't need a percentage at the end of something to appreciate photography
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Dan Wajnman Regular Member • Posts: 415
DOF

Small sensor and slow lenses of the new Nikons do not allow for DOF control.

DOF control is a “must” for me and for many others and nicely achievable on the MFT cameras with the several fast prime lenses.

Others may not care for this, but it remains one of the “key features” on which the decisions should be made. The review does not focus on this and, if its purpose is to give advice, than I feel it should.
Dan

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chasfox Contributing Member • Posts: 518
About the price

A key element of the low DPR rating was the high pricing.

In the UK typical mail order pricing is:

Nikon V1 + 10-30 lens £669 to £729

G3 + 14-42 £449 to £469

GH2 + 14-42 £599 to £699

Nex5n + 18-55 £499

Pen EP3 + 14-42 £699

I think they have a good point. I personally would rate the J1 at £299 and the V1 at £499 plus the EP3 at £599

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Jorgen E Senior Member • Posts: 1,730
V1 attracts more than DpReview's so called "Soccer Moms"...

LincolnB wrote:

... but they were quite limited and specific in any praise. They did not like it as a general purpose camera nor as a 'downgrade' for current DSLR owners. Their recommendation was limited to P&S upgraders shooting fast moving objects in bright light. That's narrow.

Exactly. I know 4 people (5, incl myself) who has bought the V1. And guess what, we're all keen Nikon DSLR shooters, ranging from "keen amateurs" to "seasoned semi-pros". The review doesn't reflect this one bit, but rather focuses on how this camera will be "to hard to use/understand for Soccer Moms".

This review should have been split up in two separate parts -- J1 and V1.
They are NOT the same type of camera!
They do NOT attract the same type of customers!

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Take care,
Jorgen

Probere necesse est.....

Jeremy_T Senior Member • Posts: 1,224
Re: About the price

chasfox wrote:

A key element of the low DPR rating was the high pricing.

Well, they expressly state that they try to not let pricing impact reviews as a matter of policy.

It's unclear to me that the overall score includes price at all. In a lot of cases cameras that seem to be better "bang for the buck" are rated lower than more capable but more expensive models, so I tend to think that score is not based on price.

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