Review of the J1 and V1 are up

Started Jan 20, 2012 | Discussions
HeavyDuty Senior Member • Posts: 1,849
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

OK, I just finished a quick read of the review. Speaking as a V1 kit owner that bought same to supplement DSLR and Leica RF gear, these review phrases jump out at me:

"... But quite honestly, after waiting so long for a mirrorless camera from Nikon, we expected something more polished than the 1 System in its current form..."

I agree - this camera really needs to go back into the oven for a firmware rebake. Most of the annoying characteristics - auto image review, oddball auto ISO choices, F button that isn't assignable, no live histogram, etc. - could likely be handled very easily with a firmware update.

"... If you want to shoot moving subjects in good light with a small (ish) camera then the J1 and V1 really are the only game in town, at least as far as mirrorless models are concerned..."

Describes me to a T - my V1 is an everyday carry cam for when I don't plan to be shooting anything in particular. It's very competent at shooting action and just as good at urban landscape.

DPR, your score doesn't really match up with your comments. I think your scoring algorithm needs a rebake, too.

-- hide signature --
 HeavyDuty's gear list:HeavyDuty's gear list
Leica APO-Summicron-M 75mm f/2 ASPH Fujifilm X100S Canon XC10 Sigma dp0 Quattro Sony RX10 III +73 more
peterclark55 Senior Member • Posts: 2,379
Re: Well spoken...

Jorgen E wrote:

KnightPhoto2 wrote:

.....not awarding these cameras a silver award (and the effectively non-recomendation in the conclusion) given the very good IQ, huge AF advantage and huge huge fps and deep buffer advantages they have is, hmm need to pick a very strong word, unconscionable. I really really can't imagine how Dpreview justifies that. Sorry Amazon.com but you just aren't cutting it for me and I am really dismayed by this review given all the Nikon 1 breakthroughs.

Couldn't agree more.

+1, could not agree more, Peter
--
http://www.pbase.com/peter55/galleries

Brian Caslis
Brian Caslis Senior Member • Posts: 2,932
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

webrunner5 wrote:

Oh come on. This thing is an expensive dud. No average person is going to buy one of these for $800.00. Most people take pictures with a cell phone now that would be targeted by this. Nikon is in the dark ages with this thing.

Nikon hasn't made a decent P&S type camera since the Coolpic 990. One of the best cameras ever made.

This is the blind spot all the critics on this forum miss. Do any of you go to retail stores? There are displays for the Nikon 1 everywhere that sell electronics. Big displays in Best Buy, Target, etc... Where I see it promoted the least is "traditional" camera stores. If someone doesn't live online I actually have a hard time buying something like a m4/3 camera. I see some nice displays sometimes for the NEX system. But I see a lot of fancy professional looking displays for the Nikon 1. I was amazed by the huge display they had at target.

I'll very interested in Nikon's next quarterly report, but I wouldn't be surprised if they sell a lot of these.

 Brian Caslis's gear list:Brian Caslis's gear list
Nikon Z7 Nikon AP-F 70-300mm F4.5-5.6E Nikon Z 24-70mm F4 Epson Stylus Pro 3880
goosel
goosel Senior Member • Posts: 1,874
agree

Now if the 1 series were from Canon... it would have 10 points more wouldn't it? The amount of spam amazon keeps sending me trying to unload canon dslrs tells me a lot.

Clayton1985 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,390
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

Steve -- very good points. What I love about the V1 is how good it is at things that are most important and the criticisms (some certainly justified) are almost 100% about things that are less important. I've owned a few cameras with neat features that couldn't reliably take a picture to save my life.

I think the V1 was a touchscreen and twilight mode away from 80%.....

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,305
Exactly right

My experience is the same. I would be happier if I could turn off the auto-review, and the shortcomings in auto-ISO force me to use Shutter priority when I might prefer A. I want a button that lets me set ISO directly as well. But once accustomed to the camera, even with its shortcomings, it is extremely fast to use, and the AF system is an absolute marvel.

Clayton1985 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,390
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

We can have a contest... you bring one of your kids with their iPhone and I'll bring my V1. We'll take a stroll around the park and just shoot birds, dogs, kids, tennis, baseball, and see who wins. Oh, ok, you can bring your G1 X too!

Brian Caslis
Brian Caslis Senior Member • Posts: 2,932
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

I agree with the comments about the score not reflecting comments.

For a great review of the review, see the January 21st entry here:

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

Great points about how an "average" score is pretty useless, and how the one small bone that dpreview proved how "it's good for shooting moving objects" is a huge market.

I guess dpreview thinks shooting only landscapes and test targets makes sense.

 Brian Caslis's gear list:Brian Caslis's gear list
Nikon Z7 Nikon AP-F 70-300mm F4.5-5.6E Nikon Z 24-70mm F4 Epson Stylus Pro 3880
(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,305
Perfect review of a dpreview

Hill absolutely nails everything I've thought about this, even in the "preview" stage of the V1. I sold off an E-P3 system as well, and a NEX 5N system for that matter. For me they are simply no competition for the V1.

Simon Joinson
Simon Joinson dpreview Admin • Posts: 5,019
Re: Novices?

Jorgen E wrote:

Barney Britton wrote:

This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

And my point is, that this review fails in understanding that the V1 to a rather large extent, seems to be used by other photographers than those almost mythical "novices".

Everyone I know, who has bought a V1 (four people, five with me), are somewhere between "keen amature" and "semi-professional".

Actually we were told specifically by several senior Nikon execs that the Nikon 1 system is 'not designed for the enthusiast market' (and, in as many words, that neither camera was aimed at the typical dpreview visitor). Most of the press launch was spent talking about the 'facebook generation' and how this camera would be marketed as the ultimate point and shoot. Our point was that it fails in this respect. We had several cameras, one of which I spent some time at home with doing normal family photography of young, active children indoors, using the auto mode. I found the experience deeply frustrating. It's a far better camera if you know what you're doing.
SJ
--
Simon Joinson, Editor
dpreview.com

 Simon Joinson's gear list:Simon Joinson's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Sony RX100 II Canon EOS 20D Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 Nikon D750 +23 more
Jorgen E Senior Member • Posts: 1,730
Re: Novices?

Simon Joinson wrote:

Jorgen E wrote:

Barney Britton wrote:

This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

And my point is, that this review fails in understanding that the V1 to a rather large extent, seems to be used by other photographers than those almost mythical "novices".

Everyone I know, who has bought a V1 (four people, five with me), are somewhere between "keen amature" and "semi-professional".

Actually we were told specifically by several senior Nikon execs that the Nikon 1 system is 'not designed for the enthusiast market' (and, in as many words, that neither camera was aimed at the typical dpreview visitor). Most of the press launch was spent talking about the 'facebook generation' and how this camera would be marketed as the ultimate point and shoot. Our point was that it fails in this respect.

I think this is a huge marketing mistake on Nikon's part. They should have separated the J1 from the V1, when defining target audiences and such.

And, speaking of separating: that is what the reviewers should have done too. If you share the same review/score for J1/V1, why not do it for the D3100 and D5100 too? There are MAJOR important differences between J1 ("Soccer Moms") and V1 ("Enthusiasts"), and they should have been reviewed separately. Or, att least, been given separate scores.

-- hide signature --

Take care,
Jorgen

Probere necesse est.....

Simon Joinson
Simon Joinson dpreview Admin • Posts: 5,019
Re: Novices?

Jorgen E wrote:

Simon Joinson wrote:

Jorgen E wrote:

Barney Britton wrote:

This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

And my point is, that this review fails in understanding that the V1 to a rather large extent, seems to be used by other photographers than those almost mythical "novices".

Everyone I know, who has bought a V1 (four people, five with me), are somewhere between "keen amature" and "semi-professional".

Actually we were told specifically by several senior Nikon execs that the Nikon 1 system is 'not designed for the enthusiast market' (and, in as many words, that neither camera was aimed at the typical dpreview visitor). Most of the press launch was spent talking about the 'facebook generation' and how this camera would be marketed as the ultimate point and shoot. Our point was that it fails in this respect.

I think this is a huge marketing mistake on Nikon's part. They should have separated the J1 from the V1, when defining target audiences and such.

And, speaking of separating: that is what the reviewers should have done too. If you share the same review/score for J1/V1, why not do it for the D3100 and D5100 too? There are MAJOR important differences between J1 ("Soccer Moms") and V1 ("Enthusiasts"), and they should have been reviewed separately. Or, att least, been given separate scores.

If the cameras had been judged to deserve different scores they would, i'm sure, have been given different scores.
SJ
--
Simon Joinson, Editor
dpreview.com

 Simon Joinson's gear list:Simon Joinson's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Sony RX100 II Canon EOS 20D Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 Nikon D750 +23 more
peripheralfocus Veteran Member • Posts: 4,417
Nikon trying to think big

I haven't used the 1-series cameras and haven't talked at any length to Nikon folks about them, so this is a bit of an off-the-cuff impression, but ...

R Butler wrote:

But as a point-and-shoot mirrorless camera (and an expensive one at that) we believe it will let a lot of people down.

I think calling these cameras "point-and-shoot mirrorless" models is, at this point in time, perfectly reasonable, and from that point of view, the evaluation you guys gave the cameras seems quite reasonable and carefully thought out.

My own feeling is that Nikon's base line aim is more than just to make a "point-and-shoot mirrorless" system. I think they've got big, category-redefining ideas in mind that relate to still/video convergence and the future of the ways that people use imagery in their lives. I think the 1-series is a first, only partially successful, step in trying to carve out some new answers to what space Nikon can occupy in the camera business in the next decade or two.

I think they've asked themselves "where can Nikon fit in a world where still and video images are equally easy to use, share, and display and where the boundaries between them begin to disappear in customers' minds, and also where can Nikon fit in a world where smartphones will take over 80% of the snapshot and snap-video needs of the world."

They can't compete in the smartphone game and and they know it. In the future, orders of magnitude more photos and videos will be taken with Apple, Motorola, and Nokia devices than with Nikon or Canon devices. The lower three-fourths of the snapsot/snapvideo market is going to smartphones and no power on earth will stop that. This is a stark fact that all the current camera companies face. I think Nikon is quite well aware that they will be winding down their Coolpix business over the next 5-10 years.

And then secondly, still and video imaging, for 95% of the world, are converging and no power on earth will stop that either.

But Nikon has some skills that Apple doesn't and probably never will -- tracking autofocus, optics, lighting, basic "camera-ness", etc. etc.. So I think they're looking for ways to leverage those skills -- to make a product that sits in that part of the market -- definitely a minority -- that will want more sophisticated image-making capabilities than a smartphone will ever house but not DSLR-level complexity or size. Nikon could make a profitable business out of serving that need -- they'll probably only sell 3, 5, or 8 million such cameras in a year, compared to the 500 million or 1 billion smartphones sold in a year, but 3 million 1-series cameras a year would be a very profitable business for Nikon. (And one that Apple would never go after, since they are much more interested in selling hundreds of millions of iPhones a year.)

I think the pillar of this strategy that relates to still/video convergence is clear from the 1-series feature set, which shows some creative and original thinking about how to provide interesting still and video features in a single camera -- indeed some of the features, like 60 still frames per second, basically ignore the distinction.) There will be much more of this in the camera industry in the years ahead.

The part that Nikon didn't get is connectivity -- connectivity to other devices (tablets, smartphones, TVs etc.) and connectivity to other people (texts, tweets, Facebook and Flickr et. al.). I imagine we'll see this pillar in future models.

So I see the 1-series as really something intended to be different than a mirrorless still photo point-and-shoot camera. I think Nikon is aiming for an Apple-like category redefining product line that really is a new kind of camera for new kinds of imagery usage and a new market landscape. Without having used the cameras, my ill-informed opinion at this point is that they only partially succeeded (maybe 30%) but I admire them for giving it a shot, and for recognizing that a big part of their current business is not long for this world.

TEBnewyork
OP TEBnewyork Forum Pro • Posts: 11,337
Re: Novices?

I like the way you do things because a lot of times what you point out really becomes the catalyst for the camera companies to be forthcoming with firmware updates.

The reviews of the NEX 5 and X100 were followed by substantial firmware updates.

This is why I don't get upset when my pet camera gets knocked in a review. Pointing out the deficiencies in a big worldwide forum has an impact.

-- hide signature --
D200_4me
D200_4me Veteran Member • Posts: 4,589
CYA

Nikon was probably saying that as more of a CYA statement (cover your....you know). If they had said it was for enthusiasts, then they would have been raked over the coals for not putting 20 more buttons on the outside of the camera. Their marketing and statements about the camera have probably been a little confusing. I don't think even they knew really where it should fit and who would buy it.

-- hide signature --
 D200_4me's gear list:D200_4me's gear list
Nikon Z7 Fujifilm X-T30 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-120mm F4G ED VR Nikon Z 24-70mm F4
PerL Forum Pro • Posts: 14,061
Re: Novices?

Jorgen E wrote:

Barney Britton wrote:

This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

And my point is, that this review fails in understanding that the V1 to a rather large extent, seems to be used by other photographers than those almost mythical "novices".

Everyone I know, who has bought a V1 (four people, five with me), are somewhere between "keen amature" and "semi-professional".

Agree with you Jorgen. I was at the presskonference when the D4 was presented. I saw several V1 cameras (in fact more than any other camera) used by the photo journalist at the event.

-- hide signature --

Take care,
Jorgen

Probere necesse est.....

joeyv Contributing Member • Posts: 587
Re: DP reviewer has no clue

daniel broad wrote:

As it is, there's one major factor not mentioned fully which may persuade potential buyers; if you want digiscoping levels of telephoto reach with existing moderate telephoto Nikkor lenses, and at their fullest AF speed, then this is the camera to get. Nikon birders or wildlife day trippers are loving this camera setup.

+1. Another aspect that makes the Nikon 1 unique. It is clear to me the dp reviewer does not fully understand the things that the Nikon 1 brings to the market. Capabilities that no other mirrorless cameras offer at present. Instead, he gives more points to minor things like 1/3 stop less DR or a little more noise at iso 3200. Things that are important only for professional photographers who print big.
--
joeyv

pengch Regular Member • Posts: 379
Re: I don't agree - I think DPR messed up

So you're a casual photographer with simple needs - that's when you need an Auto ISO system that works. That's when you need in-camera distortion correction to remove the need to head over to a computer, and that's when you need quick and simple access to key shooting settings.
This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

The ONLY game in town has lower score? Canon, Sony and Panasonic are bigger co. more adds, Are you down with them? Great job!

I knew DPR will not give Nikon N1 high score but the score you give will hunt you for long time.

Clayton1985 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,390
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

I think Brad has done an excellent job of how many of us feel about the V1/J1 review.

The great thing about it is that it really only matters that Nikon sees what we see. Then they will back it up with the mostly minor but needed improvements and the new lenses that will be needed to fully realize the systems potential.

dpreview will come around after everyone else has already figured it out.... they always do.

stevelee01 New Member • Posts: 3
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

I've been in the market for a mirrorless camera and have been comparing a number of the different offerings out there. I finally got around to listing out the prices for my contenders and came up with this...(these are prices direct from Amazon and may not be up-to-date)

Olympus EP3+kit lens $ 900
Olympus VF2 viewfinder $ 180
Olympus price $1080

Nikon V1+kit lens $ 850
Nikon flash $ 150
Nikon price $1000

Panasonic G3 $550-700 (it's price has been fluctuating lately...)

Panasonic GX1+kit lens $ 950
Panasonic LVF2 $ 250
Panasonic price $1200

In this specific analysis, I'm placing value on the viewfinder and flash.

As I look at the numbers, all of the cameras are very comparable in price with the exception of the Panasonic G3-- built-in EVF and flash, with an added bonus of an articulating screen. Mind you the prices are approximate, but I think that the marketing folks at Olympus, Nikon, and Panasonic are doing a pretty good job at trying to balance features and price with each other (with the exception of the guys who did the G3 pricing).

Value-wise, I don't think that the Nikon is that bad...

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads