Review of the J1 and V1 are up

Started Jan 20, 2012 | Discussions
AndreasE Contributing Member • Posts: 909
Some points ...

pengch wrote:

I know and they also know, there is No Chance for any of DP's hi score PS's and CSC's to do what you did.
Great shoots !

Thanks.

It is not my intention to dismiss the effort taken by the DPR team to provide their reviews since many years. My key point is, that the use cases applied during the reviews (for consistency) cover a certain percentage of what users do and what cameras are capable of doing.

If one camera fits perfectly the DPR use cases, than the methodology applied by the review process is able to capture the capabilities of the camera.

If a second camera has a design priority which is focussed on use cases not covered by the DPR review process, the review will by design not be able to capture these capabilities. These capabilities are in the test process not visible and henceforth can not be covered.

For instance:

1) How important to an owner is the test result, that camera A has 1,5% less noise at ISO xxx, when yy% of picture are out of focus? What is the benefit of a higher resolution if the camera is out of battery? etc, etc ... A camera is a total package including lenses.

2) Barney said, they shot hundreds of outside pictures. Great. How familiar can someone get with the controls by shooting hundreds of pictures in the course of some weeks (and potentially intermingled with many other cameras under review)? Owners of cameras usually have their gear a) longer, b) shoot many thousands pictures and c) not much distraction during use. I shot this camera since October, and over time a level of familiarity with the controls and design principles the developers put in this camera became much mor convenient. Are they perfect? no. But how can a review process with the intention to reflect evolving user experiences evolve by itself to mirror as close as possible the target audience expectations?

My recommendation to the DPR team is that with the upcoming blending of still and video photography and cameras positioned in between, to take the considerable experience of the team and evaluate possible paths of progress for the reviews itself.

To provide another example:

I still have all 28 Nikon DSLRs and since the start of DPRs reviews with the D1, I've followed their work, which I really appreciate. Yet, the pattern became more and more evident, that tests with consumer cameras like the D3100 and D5100 reflected more accurately the way how the cameras can and should be used. With the higher end cameras, the technical details were as always accurate, but they failed to describe with the same accuracy the total package such a camera by the sheer sum of subtle details has. (the immersive factor)

The same pattern happened with the P7000. It was accurately described by the review and my usage pattern with this camera seemed to be similar like what the DPR team did. It struck my attention, that the System 1 review feels rather"disconnected" to the way how I use this little camera and those areas where the term "fun" dominates (not sure if I can get this point properly accross)

regards,
Andy

mcdull Junior Member • Posts: 32
Re: I agree...

Fullframer wrote:

Identity wrote:

I almost think the review needs 2 scores - one aimed at the P&S crowd (69%) and one aimed at enthusiasts looking for a compact alternative to a DSLR (80% - Just throwing a number out there!).

Sorry, but this is not a compact alternative to a DSLR, as the review said, "Not for photographers working in doors in low light and those that like to work creatively with shallow depth of field".

If you want to work indoors no flash and shallow depth of field you need a M43 with the F1.4 Leica which gives results that no Nikon 1 can at this time.

I think it depends on what "compact alternative to a DSLR" means.

To me, the J1 is definitely the compact alternative to me when I don't want to hug a DSLR with me and get all other people's attention, but just enjoy some casual but still good picture moment.

D200_4me
D200_4me Veteran Member • Posts: 4,610
Re: Some points ...

You make an interesting point. I try not to get too 'deep' into understand why I like the V1 anymore. There are the obvious reasons like speed but the V1 is a lot different than the cameras I've used in the past so it's not so easy to compare it to them other than things like what the ISO shots look like. What I do know is that as a total package, I really enjoy the camera and for my style of photography it's been a nearly perfect fit.
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Lasse Eisele
Lasse Eisele Senior Member • Posts: 1,910
Sorry, but I don't understand

Barney Britton wrote:

So you're a casual photographer with simple needs - that's when you need an Auto ISO system that works. That's when you need in-camera distortion correction to remove the need to head over to a computer, and that's when you need quick and simple access to key shooting settings.
This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

I don't understand why you think in-camera distortion correction is important when the lenses are already reasonably well corrected. I have only spent a few hours with a J1 and a 10-30 mm lens and, yes, there is some barrel distortion at the wide end, but in my opinion not more than with my M4/3 lenses after the in-camera distortion correction (e.g. my Oly 9-18 or 14-42). And my now dead and buried 18-200 mm DX Nikkor exhibited much worse distortion. So what's the problem? How many casual shooters will even notice the distortion?

Regards
Lasse

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,305
That's the point

The NEX 5N is fine for landscape/cityscape type photos, or for people sitting or standing still. But the AF system is Atrocious with a capital A. In less than good light focus accuracy is pretty bad, so this takes away from sensor performance, which can be D7000 like in the right circumstances. For children at play the 5N is near useless. To use the camera in these circumstances one must emulate a P&S by stopping down to the point of degrading the photo. But DPR saw 79 points, and they saw it on sensor performance alone. There is nothing else to like about the camera. I know. I sold one.

So the thing to do is just ignore these irrelevant reviews. Get the camera that performs the way you want it to perform. If you aren't sure, talk to friends and co-workers who take pictures. Or do what I did. Buy several (one at a time of course) and sell them if they disappoint you. I stopped on the V1, and along with my favorite DSLR this is where I will stay.

Wellington100 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,764
The novice argument is a red herring

Barney Britton wrote:

topstuff wrote:

Here is my thinking..

DPR have not given sufficient weight to the single most important element of why people buy a new camera..

DPR said :

"If you want to shoot moving subjects in good light with a small (ish) camera then the J1 and V1 really are the only game in town"

MILLIONS of people buy a new camera with EXACTLY these requirements ! People buy cameras because they are going on holiday or having kids and they want to capture the moment.

If the Nikon 1 cameras " really are the only game in town" then the DPR overall score should be weighted to reflect this.

I own a NEX5N. The AF and exposure accuracy out of the camera sucks compared to the Nikon. The Nikon V1 is clearly superior in this respect.

Yet, if you look at the scores, many potential buyers will reject the Nikon and get the Sony simply because of the scoring. This would be a mistake for the MILLIONS of people who specifically want a camera to shoot moving objects in good light - in other words kids and family while on holiday...

DPR are guilty in my opinion of forgetting the needs of the purchaser. Lets not forget that the overwhelming majority of camera buyers have SIMPLE needs. They are NOT photo geeks. Yet, many will come to this site in search of guidance.

The overall scores of the DPR review are skewed incorrectly in my opinion for this simple reason.

In the REAL world of casual photographers, the things the Nikon 1 does well trump the more esoteric things that DPR have given too much weight to.

You screwed up , guys.

And that's coming from a NEX user !!

So you're a casual photographer with simple needs - that's when you need an Auto ISO system that works. That's when you need in-camera distortion correction to remove the need to head over to a computer, and that's when you need quick and simple access to key shooting settings.
This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

Who are these mysterious novices you are talking about. People upsizing from super budget P&S cameras will probably be more than happy with advanced P&S cameras with PASM like the Canon S100 or Fuji X10 or a budget PASM bridge camera. At a push they might consider an EPM1 or a GF3 on special.

Entry level compact users are not the market for one of the most expensive and sophisticated mirrorless camera systems released to date.

On the other hand, advanced compact camera users looking for more IQ in mirrorless are not novices, they are sophisticated shooters who have learned to milk every last drop of IQ out of their little cameras and are looking for more. They know what they are looking for and will take to the V1 or advanced M4/3 like ducks to water. Coming from compacts, the Nikons are liberating not limiting

DSLR users migrating down to the V1/J1 ought to be competent shooters by and large as well

The only other source of novices are people genuinely new to photography and I can't see why on earth they would start out with the V1 or J1 when there are unprecedented options for them in the market at a fraction of the price.

In conclusion, if your rating has been skewed because of your concern for novices, I too think you have erred on the side of caution and that you should rate the camera assuming advanced amateurs will be the user base, as well as Nikon DSLR users buying it as a back up with the adaptor.

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WCguy Senior Member • Posts: 1,062
Re: That's the point

BackInTheGame wrote:

The NEX 5N is fine for landscape/cityscape type photos, or for people sitting or standing still. But the AF system is Atrocious with a capital A. In less than good light focus accuracy is pretty bad, so this takes away from sensor performance, which can be D7000 like in the right circumstances. For children at play the 5N is near useless. To use the camera in these circumstances one must emulate a P&S by stopping down to the point of degrading the photo. But DPR saw 79 points, and they saw it on sensor performance alone. There is nothing else to like about the camera. I know. I sold one.

So the thing to do is just ignore these irrelevant reviews. Get the camera that performs the way you want it to perform. If you aren't sure, talk to friends and co-workers who take pictures. Or do what I did. Buy several (one at a time of course) and sell them if they disappoint you. I stopped on the V1, and along with my favorite DSLR this is where I will stay.

My sediments exactly ! WC
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Jaelkay Senior Member • Posts: 2,243
Re: Fair Conclusion...

I agree it's a very fair and balanced review. It would be interesting to have the reviewers post an update review after a few months of intensive use of the system. I think the results would be somewhat better.

teinszo Regular Member • Posts: 225
Re: The novice argument is a red herring

In conclusion, if your rating has been skewed because of your concern for novices, I too think you have erred on the side of caution and that you should rate the camera assuming advanced amateurs will be the user base, as well as Nikon DSLR users buying it as a back up with the adaptor.

+1

Knowing what we know now of the Nikon 1 cameras, we can conclude that Nikon broadened the target market for these cameras - from novices, to enthusiasts, to advanced users, and professionals. The review should have taken these user sectors into consideration in reviewing the features and capabilities of these cameras, and draw conclusions bearing these targets in mind.

TODave Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: I don't get the 1 System at all

PerL - I suggest there is more than one such camera that meets the criteria you listed, the Fuji X10.
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Swingline Contributing Member • Posts: 742
Re: I agree...

It could mean anything. It's up to the manufacturer. Nikon said it was for the everyday user whereas Canon says the G1X is a backup. One also has to allow for firmware updates and future Series 1 models. How popular would the Series 1 be without the FT1. Why did Nikon say it was for casual users and then include the FT-1 among the early accessories?

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Clayton1985 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,420
Re: I agree...

Fullframer wrote:

If you want to work indoors no flash and shallow depth of field you need a M43 with the F1.4 Leica which gives results that no Nikon 1 can at this time.

You can work indoors with the V1 and quite a few f1.4 lenses that autofocus and yes you can get shallow depth of field... now, remind me what lens you use indoors when you need f1.4 and you need more reach than your Leica will give you?

nboyer Veteran Member • Posts: 5,130
Re: Ahhhhh c'mon Norm.....

Ben - You know me all too well. But I know that you'll be first in line to get one ;-). Cheers. -Norm

Ben Herrmann wrote:

I know you're still a camera slut at heart and I just know you'll wind up picking up the OM-D (which BTW I bet that DPReview already has in their possession) when it becomes available.
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TEBnewyork
OP TEBnewyork Forum Pro • Posts: 11,337
Re: Methodology for "static" and "dynamic" reviews needed

For the site you show they pretty much said it is the only game in town. What they did take away point for are indoors and less light where the camera doesn't get the shutter speed right. Thom Higan certainly goes out and shoots with them and his review cited the same problems.
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pengch Regular Member • Posts: 379
Re: Some points ...

AndreasE wrote:

pengch wrote:

I know and they also know, there is No Chance for any of DP's hi score PS's and CSC's to do what you did.
Great shoots !

Thanks.

It is not my intention to dismiss the effort taken by the DPR team to provide their reviews since many years. My key point is, that the use cases applied during the reviews (for consistency) cover a certain percentage of what users do and what cameras are capable of doing.

If one camera fits perfectly the DPR use cases, than the methodology applied by the review process is able to capture the capabilities of the camera.

If a second camera has a design priority which is focussed on use cases not covered by the DPR review process, the review will by design not be able to capture these capabilities. These capabilities are in the test process not visible and henceforth can not be covered.

For instance:

1) How important to an owner is the test result, that camera A has 1,5% less noise at ISO xxx, when yy% of picture are out of focus? What is the benefit of a higher resolution if the camera is out of battery? etc, etc ... A camera is a total package including lenses.

2) Barney said, they shot hundreds of outside pictures. Great. How familiar can someone get with the controls by shooting hundreds of pictures in the course of some weeks (and potentially intermingled with many other cameras under review)? Owners of cameras usually have their gear a) longer, b) shoot many thousands pictures and c) not much distraction during use. I shot this camera since October, and over time a level of familiarity with the controls and design principles the developers put in this camera became much mor convenient. Are they perfect? no. But how can a review process with the intention to reflect evolving user experiences evolve by itself to mirror as close as possible the target audience expectations?

My recommendation to the DPR team is that with the upcoming blending of still and video photography and cameras positioned in between, to take the considerable experience of the team and evaluate possible paths of progress for the reviews itself.

To provide another example:

I still have all 28 Nikon DSLRs and since the start of DPRs reviews with the D1, I've followed their work, which I really appreciate. Yet, the pattern became more and more evident, that tests with consumer cameras like the D3100 and D5100 reflected more accurately the way how the cameras can and should be used. With the higher end cameras, the technical details were as always accurate, but they failed to describe with the same accuracy the total package such a camera by the sheer sum of subtle details has. (the immersive factor)

The same pattern happened with the P7000. It was accurately described by the review and my usage pattern with this camera seemed to be similar like what the DPR team did. It struck my attention, that the System 1 review feels rather"disconnected" to the way how I use this little camera and those areas where the term "fun" dominates (not sure if I can get this point properly accross)

regards,
Andy

Phil Askey's passion mad DPR, and helped me understand how digital works. Today, so many cameras can do what we could not imagine back then. N1’s unique technical innovation, we may love it but many do not understand it’s important in many ways. Image resolution, ISO, can be measured, and job is down.

Thanks to your review help me to get V1, which is what I’m waiting for a small camera for long time.

TEBnewyork
OP TEBnewyork Forum Pro • Posts: 11,337
Re: The novice argument is a red herring

But that is the whole point. A sophisticated system for sophisticated users wouldn't leave off bracketing, live histogram, no turn off of image review, no mode dial, no quick menu....

I like the V1 and am enjoying using it but both sets of users are left wanting something more in certain areas (functionality).
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TEBnewyork
OP TEBnewyork Forum Pro • Posts: 11,337
Re: Methodology for "static" and "dynamic" reviews needed

Missed the edit deadline should have said for the shots you show ....
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Wellington100 Forum Pro • Posts: 11,764
Re: The novice argument is a red herring

TEBnewyork wrote:

But that is the whole point. A sophisticated system for sophisticated users wouldn't leave off bracketing, live histogram, no turn off of image review, no mode dial, no quick menu....

Ironically though, without those features, the sophisticated user is more able to adapt to the cameras capabilities than is the hypothetical novice, these limitations make it even more likely that the camera is suitable for sophisticated users who know their way around exposure compensation, spot metering and such like.

Bracketing and histograms are luxuries, not necessities.

I like the V1 and am enjoying using it but both sets of users are left wanting something more in certain areas (functionality).
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TEBnewyork
OP TEBnewyork Forum Pro • Posts: 11,337
Re: The novice argument is a red herring

Bracketing for HDR handheld would be awesome on the N1's because they shoot so fast. Giveth and taketh away.

Time lapse with 5 second minimum interval. Fairly useless for many situations. Not a novice tool but a crippled tool.
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MAubrey
MAubrey Senior Member • Posts: 1,600
Re: Fair Conclusion...

Andrewteee wrote:

In the review they claim that the Nikon 1 IQ is essentially the same as M43s. I have both and across the various factors it's a wash. The point being that the larger M43 sensor should have room for improvement.

I would expect that it will. The 12MP M43 sensor is how many years old? The Nikon 1 has succeeded at equally the sensor technology of 2008 that really needs to be taken off life support. That's not to say that I'm not impressed with the N1, just that M43 has been a little slow with sensor improvement...

I would hope that the OM-D is a step forward. I'm also very curious to see what that camera turns out to be.

Me too!

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