Review of the J1 and V1 are up

Started Jan 20, 2012 | Discussions
AndreasE Contributing Member • Posts: 909
Methodology for "static" and "dynamic" reviews needed

R Butler wrote:

The conclusion makes clear where the Nikon 1's strengths lie and, as we say, for some uses, it's the only game in town. But as a point-and-shoot mirrorless camera (and an expensive one at that) we believe it will let a lot of people down.
Richard - dpreview.com

Thanks for the effort Richard.
Your conclusion is in line with other "static" reviews and assessments.

By "static" I refer to the predominantly lab environment where cameras for compareability have to endure the same tripod-based journey.

Yet, concurrently, quite a few photographers used the camera in an environment where "speed", "motion" and "movement" had a higher priority and gave it in the average a higher ranking.

There seem to be a clear line of distinction between the two approaches and I have the impression that it (the N1) rather fits better in the second camp.

So we have 2 domains:

Cams faring well in the static usage camp and being suboptimal in the dynamic camp.
And vice versa.

Any plans to extend your rather static review process or develop an inclusive methodolgy to pay justice if a cam is just not optimized for those type of lab "benchmarks"?

regards,
Andy

Blog - http://nikonandye.wordpress.com

sandy b
sandy b Veteran Member • Posts: 9,338
Ok, after reading the calm, measured reponses in this post

and seeing the initial scores of some of the other cams like the nex 5, and rereading the review, perhaps they did get it. I would have liked a little more emphasis on the things Nikon did get right, speed and size, color. But, still, fair review, and as usual, well written. Looking forward to Nikon's response in their next generation.

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ajmiarka
ajmiarka Regular Member • Posts: 112
Re: I don't get the 1 System at all

With all your talk, maybe the Nikon 1 system isn't for you. You can sit there and boggle your mind all your want...meanwhile... we'll be taking pictures

Barney Britton
Barney Britton dpreview Admin • Posts: 470
Re: I don't agree - I think DPR messed up

topstuff wrote:

Here is my thinking..

DPR have not given sufficient weight to the single most important element of why people buy a new camera..

DPR said :

"If you want to shoot moving subjects in good light with a small (ish) camera then the J1 and V1 really are the only game in town"

MILLIONS of people buy a new camera with EXACTLY these requirements ! People buy cameras because they are going on holiday or having kids and they want to capture the moment.

If the Nikon 1 cameras " really are the only game in town" then the DPR overall score should be weighted to reflect this.

I own a NEX5N. The AF and exposure accuracy out of the camera sucks compared to the Nikon. The Nikon V1 is clearly superior in this respect.

Yet, if you look at the scores, many potential buyers will reject the Nikon and get the Sony simply because of the scoring. This would be a mistake for the MILLIONS of people who specifically want a camera to shoot moving objects in good light - in other words kids and family while on holiday...

DPR are guilty in my opinion of forgetting the needs of the purchaser. Lets not forget that the overwhelming majority of camera buyers have SIMPLE needs. They are NOT photo geeks. Yet, many will come to this site in search of guidance.

The overall scores of the DPR review are skewed incorrectly in my opinion for this simple reason.

In the REAL world of casual photographers, the things the Nikon 1 does well trump the more esoteric things that DPR have given too much weight to.

You screwed up , guys.

And that's coming from a NEX user !!

So you're a casual photographer with simple needs - that's when you need an Auto ISO system that works. That's when you need in-camera distortion correction to remove the need to head over to a computer, and that's when you need quick and simple access to key shooting settings.
This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

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Barney Britton
Barney Britton dpreview Admin • Posts: 470
Re: Methodology for "static" and "dynamic" reviews needed

AndreasE wrote:

R Butler wrote:

The conclusion makes clear where the Nikon 1's strengths lie and, as we say, for some uses, it's the only game in town. But as a point-and-shoot mirrorless camera (and an expensive one at that) we believe it will let a lot of people down.
Richard - dpreview.com

Thanks for the effort Richard.
Your conclusion is in line with other "static" reviews and assessments.

By "static" I refer to the predominantly lab environment where cameras for compareability have to endure the same tripod-based journey.

Yet, concurrently, quite a few photographers used the camera in an environment where "speed", "motion" and "movement" had a higher priority and gave it in the average a higher ranking.

There seem to be a clear line of distinction between the two approaches and I have the impression that it (the N1) rather fits better in the second camp.

So we have 2 domains:

Cams faring well in the static usage camp and being suboptimal in the dynamic camp.
And vice versa.

Any plans to extend your rather static review process or develop an inclusive methodolgy to pay justice if a cam is just not optimized for those type of lab "benchmarks"?

I'm not sure you're paying attention, with due respect. We've shot hundreds and hundreds of pictures with both the J1 and V1 outside of the studio.

bb

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Nikon D810 Leica M10
Seedeich Senior Member • Posts: 2,861
Re: Methodology for "static" and "dynamic" reviews needed

Great comment
I would say, the N1s are shooters’ cameras.

But I would also agree, that some adjustment of the auto ISO behaviour could prevent p&s upgraders from being thrown off the track. - And make it even more useful for experienced shooters.

AndreasE wrote:

R Butler wrote:

The conclusion makes clear where the Nikon 1's strengths lie and, as we say, for some uses, it's the only game in town. But as a point-and-shoot mirrorless camera (and an expensive one at that) we believe it will let a lot of people down.
Richard - dpreview.com

Thanks for the effort Richard.
Your conclusion is in line with other "static" reviews and assessments.

By "static" I refer to the predominantly lab environment where cameras for compareability have to endure the same tripod-based journey.

Yet, concurrently, quite a few photographers used the camera in an environment where "speed", "motion" and "movement" had a higher priority and gave it in the average a higher ranking.

There seem to be a clear line of distinction between the two approaches and I have the impression that it (the N1) rather fits better in the second camp.

So we have 2 domains:

Cams faring well in the static usage camp and being suboptimal in the dynamic camp.
And vice versa.

Any plans to extend your rather static review process or develop an inclusive methodolgy to pay justice if a cam is just not optimized for those type of lab "benchmarks"?

regards,
Andy

Blog - http://nikonandye.wordpress.com

-- hide signature --
AndreasE Contributing Member • Posts: 909
Re: Methodology for "static" and "dynamic" reviews needed

Barney Britton wrote:

I'm not sure you're paying attention, with due respect. We've shot hundreds and hundreds of pictures with both the J1 and V1 outside of the studio.

Barney,

I didn't want to dismiss your outside shots, I referred to terms like "dynamic" and "movement" in my post.

This for example is easy with the V1 - just point & shoot.(and potentially harder for other cams)

larger size: http://www.pbase.com/andrease/image/140710245/original.jpg

rgds,
Andy

vshin Regular Member • Posts: 255
Re: I don't agree - I think DPR messed up

The auto-iso issue is a valid concern, but it just seems odd that those relatively minor (and firmware-fixable) faults would trump the fact that the N1 offers important features that no other camera can match on the market. I've seen similar or even better scores given to m43 cameras that are much less capable than the N1. Quite frankly I find dpreview's rating system very confusing.

rayman 2 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,229
have you shot some of theses DPR ?

Barney Britton wrote:

AndreasE wrote:

R Butler wrote:

The conclusion makes clear where the Nikon 1's strengths lie and, as we say, for some uses, it's the only game in town. But as a point-and-shoot mirrorless camera (and an expensive one at that) we believe it will let a lot of people down.
Richard - dpreview.com

Thanks for the effort Richard.
Your conclusion is in line with other "static" reviews and assessments.

By "static" I refer to the predominantly lab environment where cameras for compareability have to endure the same tripod-based journey.

Yet, concurrently, quite a few photographers used the camera in an environment where "speed", "motion" and "movement" had a higher priority and gave it in the average a higher ranking.

There seem to be a clear line of distinction between the two approaches and I have the impression that it (the N1) rather fits better in the second camp.

So we have 2 domains:

Cams faring well in the static usage camp and being suboptimal in the dynamic camp.
And vice versa.

Any plans to extend your rather static review process or develop an inclusive methodolgy to pay justice if a cam is just not optimized for those type of lab "benchmarks"?

I'm not sure you're paying attention, with due respect. We've shot hundreds and hundreds of pictures with both the J1 and V1 outside of the studio.

bb

Have you shot some of these ? like I did !(equivalent 5400 mm on FX)
Peter

keeponkeepingon Senior Member • Posts: 1,510
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

JasonED wrote:

The review seems rather hung up on the Auto ISO implementation of favouring lower shutter speeds in higher ISO settings. While I agree the Auto ISO should be far more configurable, and may not be 'novice friendly' it is also clear looking in this forum that a great many people can take slow shutter speed high ISO pictures that are entirely sharp thanks to the very capable in lens VR.

The review should be "hung up" on this.

Nikon has this problem across the board. I returned my S8100 for exactly this reason and it seems that nikon is carying their braindead firmware over to the 1 platform.

While the fabulous IS/VR did allow " slow shutter speed high ISO pictures that are entirely sharp " for anything that moves (people/kids/pets) the resulting pictures would be horrible due to motion blur.

I was very happy to see dpreview "calling out" nikon on this issue and I hope Nikon sits up and listens.

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Canon EOS 550D Sony a6000 Canon EOS M Sony a5100
smallcams Veteran Member • Posts: 3,297
Re: Methodology for "static" and "dynamic" reviews needed

You should charge DP Review to use your photos for their review. I don't think they're the most creative or adventurous photographers.

But they're little studio setup is quite nice.

Clayton1985 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,385
Re: I agree...

Identity wrote:

I almost think the review needs 2 scores - one aimed at the P&S crowd (69%) and one aimed at enthusiasts looking for a compact alternative to a DSLR (80% - Just throwing a number out there!).

You are dead on.... unfortunately, Nikon should get about a 30% score for not realizing this.

pengch Regular Member • Posts: 379
Re: Methodology for "static" and "dynamic" reviews needed

This for example is easy with the V1 - just point & shoot.(and potentially harder for other cams)

rgds,
Andy

I know and they also know, there is No Chance for any of DP's hi score PS's and CSC's to do what you did.

Great shoots !

Fullframer Contributing Member • Posts: 815
Re: I don't agree - I think DPR messed up

topstuff wrote:

Here is my thinking..

DPR have not given sufficient weight to the single most important element of why people buy a new camera..

DPR said :

"If you want to shoot moving subjects in good light with a small (ish) camera then the J1 and V1 really are the only game in town"

MILLIONS of people buy a new camera with EXACTLY these requirements ! People buy cameras because they are going on holiday or having kids and they want to capture the moment.

If the Nikon 1 cameras " really are the only game in town" then the DPR overall score should be weighted to reflect this.

If you want to shoot moving subjects with a small camera in low light than the M43 with the Panasonic pancake F1.7 are the only game in town.

I own a NEX5N. The AF and exposure accuracy out of the camera sucks compared to the Nikon. The Nikon V1 is clearly superior in this respect.

The problem with the V1 as illustrated in the review is that you have no manual control over whether the camera chooses Phase or Contrast AF detection. In less than good lighting it choses Contrast most of the time.

Yet, if you look at the scores, many potential buyers will reject the Nikon and get the Sony simply because of the scoring. This would be a mistake for the MILLIONS of people who specifically want a camera to shoot moving objects in good light - in other words kids and family while on holiday...

Both cameras stink for shooting moving subjects/sports. For that a DSLR...

DPR are guilty in my opinion of forgetting the needs of the purchaser. Lets not forget that the overwhelming majority of camera buyers have SIMPLE needs. They are NOT photo geeks. Yet, many will come to this site in search of guidance.

The overall scores of the DPR review are skewed incorrectly in my opinion for this simple reason.

In the REAL world of casual photographers, the things the Nikon 1 does well trump the more esoteric things that DPR have given too much weight to.

You screwed up , guys.

Sorry, they got it right...in the review from point of view.

And that's coming from a NEX user !!

jack scholl
jack scholl Veteran Member • Posts: 4,222
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

keeponkeepingon wrote:

JasonED wrote:

The review seems rather hung up on the Auto ISO implementation of favouring lower shutter speeds in higher ISO settings. While I agree the Auto ISO should be far more configurable, and may not be 'novice friendly' it is also clear looking in this forum that a great many people can take slow shutter speed high ISO pictures that are entirely sharp thanks to the very capable in lens VR.

The review should be "hung up" on this.

Nikon has this problem across the board. I returned my S8100 for exactly this reason and it seems that nikon is carying their braindead firmware over to the 1 platform.

While the fabulous IS/VR did allow " slow shutter speed high ISO pictures that are entirely sharp " for anything that moves (people/kids/pets) the resulting pictures would be horrible due to motion blur.

I was very happy to see dpreview "calling out" nikon on this issue and I hope Nikon sits up and listens.

Just set S mode, select the shutter speed you "need" for the situation, and this problem goes away. Just don't understand why this is such a big issue.

And I agree it should be fixed . . .

Jack
--
http://www.pbase.com/jrs40

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Sony RX10 IV Sony RX1R II
Fullframer Contributing Member • Posts: 815
Re: I don't agree - I think DPR messed up

Barney Britton wrote:

topstuff wrote:

Here is my thinking..

DPR have not given sufficient weight to the single most important element of why people buy a new camera..

DPR said :

"If you want to shoot moving subjects in good light with a small (ish) camera then the J1 and V1 really are the only game in town"

MILLIONS of people buy a new camera with EXACTLY these requirements ! People buy cameras because they are going on holiday or having kids and they want to capture the moment.

If the Nikon 1 cameras " really are the only game in town" then the DPR overall score should be weighted to reflect this.

I own a NEX5N. The AF and exposure accuracy out of the camera sucks compared to the Nikon. The Nikon V1 is clearly superior in this respect.

Yet, if you look at the scores, many potential buyers will reject the Nikon and get the Sony simply because of the scoring. This would be a mistake for the MILLIONS of people who specifically want a camera to shoot moving objects in good light - in other words kids and family while on holiday...

DPR are guilty in my opinion of forgetting the needs of the purchaser. Lets not forget that the overwhelming majority of camera buyers have SIMPLE needs. They are NOT photo geeks. Yet, many will come to this site in search of guidance.

The overall scores of the DPR review are skewed incorrectly in my opinion for this simple reason.

In the REAL world of casual photographers, the things the Nikon 1 does well trump the more esoteric things that DPR have given too much weight to.

You screwed up , guys.

And that's coming from a NEX user !!

So you're a casual photographer with simple needs - that's when you need an Auto ISO system that works. That's when you need in-camera distortion correction to remove the need to head over to a computer, and that's when you need quick and simple access to key shooting settings.

Agreed. M43 have in camera/lens distortion automatically applied.

This is our point - the J1 and V1 will let novices down, in some respects.
bb

Agreed

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Jorginho Forum Pro • Posts: 14,819
Re: Too much talk of shortcomings and not enough of capabilities . . . balance is off

Well: mansurovs review initially came across as biased and unprofessional at times. After a discussion we had he changed a number of remarks, so it became more balanced afterwards. Not being cockey here, it is a fact. I was impressed by Masurovs reaction.

I also have read many reviews on the NIkon and they are not at all very impressed by this cam. It is a mix. I feel this review addresses the good points and the bad points of the cam very well.

I cannot pinpoint it, but after what I read I expected a 72-74 score. If a cam with half the sensor size gets equal or slightly better IQ than m43s 12 MPixel sensor, I think that it quite somehting. And the low light AF and settings are not good, but the daylight AF is stellar. Etc. And how is someone that start with a cam not helped more with great JPEGs? I own Panasonic m43s camera's and I exclusively shoot RAW and for a reason....I have a GH2, not the cheapest of those cams but the Nikon JPEGs look clearly better.

That is the only downside I feel about htis review: it seems a bit underrated while addressing the right concerns.

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Fullframer Contributing Member • Posts: 815
Re: I agree...

Identity wrote:

PerL wrote:

...but giving the lowest rate of all mirrorless seems weird, considering your first paragraph.
--
http://dslr-video.com/blogmag/

I almost think the review needs 2 scores - one aimed at the P&S crowd (69%) and one aimed at enthusiasts looking for a compact alternative to a DSLR (80% - Just throwing a number out there!).

Sorry, but this is not a compact alternative to a DSLR, as the review said, "Not for photographers working in doors in low light and those that like to work creatively with shallow depth of field".

If you want to work indoors no flash and shallow depth of field you need a M43 with the F1.4 Leica which gives results that no Nikon 1 can at this time.

mcdull Junior Member • Posts: 32
Re: I don't get the 1 System at all

Telefoto wrote:

I had absolutely zero interest in the 1 when it was announced, and the more I learn about it, the more scared I am for Nikon's future. They apparently haven't noticed how fast the P&S market is being destroyed by smart phones?

That's exactly why I got the J1 and I think Nikon is very smart here.

I have not owned a P&S since 2003, the last one is a 3MP P&S digital camera which was bigger than a J1.

I have been using my camera phone and DSLRcombinations for years. I even have one of the very rare optical-zoom phones Nokia N93i.

I don't see a reason to have a P&S other than digital zoom on phone vs optical zoom on P&S. But I see a lot of reasons I need something more compact that my D300S, wihch I can't bring every where with me or not to get other people's attention.

And the J1 with 10mm is one of the smallest mirrorless you can get other than the Pentax Q.

(the first one I ruled out is the Sony NEX series, the bulk size of the lens make it to compete in the DSLR, not in the mirrorless compact. All other M4/3 lens are larger than Nikon 1 lens too)

So far I'm very happy in taking the white J1 with me and not the get big attention (other than people are commenting on how pretty it is)

mcdull Junior Member • Posts: 32
Re: Review of the J1 and V1 are up

From technical point of view, I think the review is fair.

But from the practical purpose, I think review from people who got used to hugging 5 pound camera around will never be very fair.

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