D800 AA filter

Started Jan 19, 2012 | Discussions
Joofa Senior Member • Posts: 2,616
Re: a cheaper filter on the lens

Iliah Borg wrote:

The link I usually suggest is http://www.caprockdev.com/antimoire.htm

Thanks for the link. Seems quite useful.

Sincerely,

Joofa

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Dj Joofa

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,778
Excellent link

I basically only did a quick read of the page. Looks like they are basically selling "diffraction filters"? That sounds like a reasonable solution for those that would want 36MP without the AA most of the time, but at times run into moire situations.
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Delos
Delos Contributing Member • Posts: 846
Re: It's a real shame too... RML Demosaicing

How is RawTherapee ( http://rawtherapee.com/ ) for demosaicing?
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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 56,290
Re: Excellent link

michaeladawson wrote:

I basically only did a quick read of the page. Looks like they are basically selling "diffraction filters"? That sounds like a reasonable solution for those that would want 36MP without the AA most of the time, but at times run into moire situations.

One of the big problems with aliasing is that it's image wrecking quality is not really predictable. Not all aliasing is moire, and even that is hard to predict. So, its quite likely that you'd either need the filter on all the time, or else you'd still find a good proportion of spoiled images, just because it's unpredictable.
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Bob

michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,778
Re: Excellent link

Yes, I concur with what I think you're saying. The unpredictability of moire makes it sort of impossible to look at a scene, decide you need the filter on, then turn around and take the filter off for another scene.

Instead, I would look at it as "today I'm going out landscape shooting and I'm very unlikely to encounter any moire in my captured images". Compared with "today I'm shooting a wedding and I can't afford to have certain images ruined by moire so I'll shoot the entire day with the filter on".

Does that fit in with what you meant?

bobn2 wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

I basically only did a quick read of the page. Looks like they are basically selling "diffraction filters"? That sounds like a reasonable solution for those that would want 36MP without the AA most of the time, but at times run into moire situations.

One of the big problems with aliasing is that it's image wrecking quality is not really predictable. Not all aliasing is moire, and even that is hard to predict. So, its quite likely that you'd either need the filter on all the time, or else you'd still find a good proportion of spoiled images, just because it's unpredictable.
--
Bob

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Mike Dawson

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bob elkind Veteran Member • Posts: 5,815
Re: D800 AA filter

M Lammerse wrote:

And in the new camera without the optional AA filter it will be taken care of partly by an other sensor data processing technique in-camera..hence the higher price.

This sounds futile, based on fundamental principles. Even an identical sensor with an anti-aliasing filter would be flawed as an aliasing detection device, because there simply isn't a perfect (and commercially acceptable) anti-aliasing filter. If you want rock solid, quantitative detection of aliased imaging, you need a sampling system with bandwidth (resolution) which greatly exceeds the bandwidth of the desired image. A factor of 2 or 4 greater sampling resolution simply isn't enough.

Any auxiliary sensor would have its own set of sampling problems and issues, and is just as likely to introduce new and unpalatable artifacts as it is likely to effectively serve to identify and remove aliasing artifacts.

The detection and removal of aliasing -- outside the controlled conditions of the laboratory -- is really in the eye of the beholder (the photographer). Any photographer demanding enough to consider a camera with AA filter is also demanding enough to have the final say in "aliasing detection and removal". I use the quotation marks because there is no algorithm for identifying aliasing in a complex image (without a reference image) with certainty.

Which leads to the next assertion: If the photographer's "eye" is the arbiter of aliasing detection and application of filtering, then this capability belongs in the developing lab -- the darkroom known as post-processing -- rather than in the camera's image processor.

Will there be a market for precisely "soft" lenses, specifically identified for use as anti-aliasing filters for camera bodies which lack AA filters? Perhaps there is (will be) a market about to be created for Iliah's carefully calibrated nylon stocking filter.

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michaeladawson Forum Pro • Posts: 11,778
Not sure I want it

After reading the review at this link:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?200980-Caprock-Anti-Moire-Filters-Tested-on-the-7D

All I can think to myself is "forget it". If you have to buy a different filter for every focal length you want to use then this is not a cost effective solution. And according to the review that means they really can only be used on prime lenses.
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cluna Senior Member • Posts: 1,403
Re: Excellent link

bobn2 wrote:
.

One of the big problems with aliasing is that it's image wrecking quality is not really predictable. Not all aliasing is moire, and even that is hard to predict. So, its quite likely that you'd either need the filter on all the time, or else you'd still find a good proportion of spoiled images, just because it's unpredictable.

From my experience with the converted D300s, color moire is very common, but can be tricky to correct. Any other aliasing artifacts can be reduced with a simple blur but they are not typically an issue at all.. So most of the scene sharpness can be retained with only a local adjustment or even different raw converter. A little dither added to that region pre demosaicing would probably be better than blur (or desaturation in case of color moire)

-C

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,348
Re: Excellent link

Just out of interest, do they put AA filters in $60,000 Hasselblads etc?

If not, how do they deal with the moire? If they do, how do they manage to do so without affecting the sharpness?

cluna Senior Member • Posts: 1,403
Re: Excellent link

MPA1 wrote:

Just out of interest, do they put AA filters in $60,000 Hasselblads etc?

If not, how do they deal with the moire? If they do, how do they manage to do so without affecting the sharpness?

In multishot mode, four images are taken and that minute jitter, plus no demosaicing, reduces it. In single shot, pixel density and software has to deal.

-C

Steve Bingham
Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 25,406
Re: D800 AA filter

The 14n was scary for a LOT of reasons!

InspectorHud wrote:

I owned a Kodak 14n without AA filtering and I would be very cautious about ever going that route again. I know things change, but even one unacceptable photo because of excessive moire would be too many in my business. I will gladly accept whatever the filter introduces over the unpredictable and destructive things that happen without it.

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 3,348
Re: Excellent link

So will the purported 36Mp density assist in the case of the D800?

cluna wrote:

MPA1 wrote:

Just out of interest, do they put AA filters in $60,000 Hasselblads etc?

If not, how do they deal with the moire? If they do, how do they manage to do so without affecting the sharpness?

In multishot mode, four images are taken and that minute jitter, plus no demosaicing, reduces it. In single shot, pixel density and software has to deal.

-C

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 24,106
Re: Not sure I want it

michaeladawson wrote:

After reading the review at this link:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?200980-Caprock-Anti-Moire-Filters-Tested-on-the-7D

All I can think to myself is "forget it". If you have to buy a different filter for every focal length you want to use then this is not a cost effective solution. And according to the review that means they really can only be used on prime lenses.

I use those filters, as per Kodak recommendations, when I expect moire on SLR/n and on digital backs. Yes, most of the time it was on primes, but I never used those on video. It is quite a different task and different challanges. Video AA filters are quite different, usually installed right into the chamber boxes, you can look at VAF-5D2 as an example.

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cluna Senior Member • Posts: 1,403
Re: Excellent link

MPA1 wrote:

So will the purported 36Mp density assist in the case of the D800?

My guess is there is always a case where the subject with exhibit spacial frequency that is greater than nyquist and results in aliasing. However the more controlled the situation, think studio photography, the less likely the occurance.

If I take a cityscape from a high vantage, I will find moire in iron fence posts or light colored brick much like fabric will show. I have high hopes the 36MP will shift this into the almost nonexistent range. Pure conjecture though.

-C

sting Veteran Member • Posts: 4,970
Re: a cheaper filter on the lens

Iliah Borg wrote:

Maybe I missed something, but are we discussing IR filters here to be removed altogether with AA filters?

Since I don't know the formulation of Nikon's AA filter, I would worry about IR contamination on CMOS sensors if the AA is removed. IR filters are needed on most camcorders to achieve true black on certain types of subjects, such as black fibers on clothing.

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 24,106
Re: a cheaper filter on the lens

sting wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

Maybe I missed something, but are we discussing IR filters here to be removed altogether with AA filters?

Since I don't know the formulation of Nikon's AA filter, I would worry about IR contamination on CMOS sensors if the AA is removed. IR filters are needed on most camcorders to achieve true black on certain types of subjects, such as black fibers on clothing.

So, do I understand you correctly: do you think Nikon are going to manufacture and sale a camera without both IR and AA filters?

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cluna Senior Member • Posts: 1,403
Re: a cheaper filter on the lens

Iliah Borg wrote:

sting wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

Maybe I missed something, but are we discussing IR filters here to be removed altogether with AA filters?

Since I don't know the formulation of Nikon's AA filter, I would worry about IR contamination on CMOS sensors if the AA is removed. IR filters are needed on most camcorders to achieve true black on certain types of subjects, such as black fibers on clothing.

So, do I understand you correctly: do you think Nikon are going to manufacture and sale a camera without both IR and AA filters?

I would hope they created one that is user replaceable so the user could put in an IR, visible block, visible+AA or visible no AA at their discretion.The sensor would hopefully be protected with a clear glass window. It would certainly make cleaning mishaps less costly and allow for many creative filters to be used!

-C

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 24,106
Re: a cheaper filter on the lens

I would hope they created one that is user replaceable so the user could put in an IR, visible block, visible+AA or visible no AA at their discretion.

One may need to adjust AF each time the filter is changed, 99% of time it is necessary with all the cameras where I changed the filters.

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cpw Regular Member • Posts: 313
Re: a cheaper filter on the lens

Iliah Borg wrote:

The link I usually suggest is http://www.caprockdev.com/antimoire.htm

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Hi Iliah,

I came across this also:

http://www.mosaicengineering.com/capabilities/optical-anti-aliasing.html

I don't have experience with it, so don't know about performance, etc.; but I thought it looked interesting.

Chris

cluna Senior Member • Posts: 1,403
Re: a cheaper filter on the lens

Havent you found the delta consistant like IR vs Visible distance marking on manual lens?

However i am discussing filters in the box, not on the lens. They could you a similar technique as filters on an SB900 to alter the AF fine tuning per the choice of filter.

-C

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