Say it Isn't So!!!!

Started Jan 4, 2012 | Discussions
CFynn Veteran Member • Posts: 5,224
Re: not a competitor, but

stevielee wrote:

Agreed! I have always, and will remain a dedicated fan of much of Leica's glass. It's just their digital camera bodies that fail to impress me - especially for the asking price. But I would find it very hard to find any similar faults with their outstanding optics.

Sooner or later someone else will come out with a full frame mirrorless camera of some sort that takes M-mount lenses and has a very good sensor, live-view etc.

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CFynn Veteran Member • Posts: 5,224
Re: not a competitor, but

starwolfy wrote:

One of the major point which is forgotten here is that buying Leica lenses is a kind of investment.

Leica lenses may last a lifetime and hold their value well. I don't think we can say the same for the digital bodies though.

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CFynn Veteran Member • Posts: 5,224
Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!

harold1968 wrote:

Leica's 40% profit increase and demand higher for all its in house products then it can supply tells the true story

Part of the reason for Leica's profit increase and increased demand is that M-mount lenses are selling well to m4/3 and NEX owners who use them with an adapter.

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PJ711 Regular Member • Posts: 414
Re: not a competitor, but

I tend to agree with the view that the Leica lenses are quite capable of holding up their value in the long run, but their M8 and M9 bodies depreciate just like every other digital body, fast.

Even the examples above show that to be true. The M8, which by the way I owned and happily used for 2 years, has clearly depreciated by 70% since its introduction at a list of $5K. Comparing it to the NEX5 doesn't make much sense to me, frankly, because while it may be true that in percentage ownership the NEX has depreciated even more quickly, in absolute dollars the M8 has lost 4x the total price of the NEX. At the same time, new Leica lenses bought 4 years ago, when the M8 came out, have probably appreciated rather than depreciated. So, like the equipment or love it or whatever your feelings about it, there is an unavoidable fact that the market doesn't particularly value a digital M any more highly than a last-generation FF. You will lose thousands of dollars if you buy it new, use it for 2 years and then sell it.

BTW, I haven't been on here much but was interested in this thread since I'm quite interested in the upcoming Fuji. I'm not sure calling someone a troll because he disagrees with your views is such a good thing. Is this one of those forums?

harold1968
harold1968 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,687
Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!

thats a side show

most M4/3 users who want M mount buy voigtlander or zeiss.
Leica is too expensive, doesn't make sense for most people

CFynn wrote:

harold1968 wrote:

Leica's 40% profit increase and demand higher for all its in house products then it can supply tells the true story

Part of the reason for Leica's profit increase and increased demand is that M-mount lenses are selling well to m4/3 and NEX owners who use them with an adapter.

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harold1968
harold1968 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,687
Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!

I feel really dumb wasting my time responding to you, but I will with a final post

None of what you said below is true

You come to this forum and say 10 times a day that the M9 is rubbish

When someone points out it isn't, you pretend not to read what they write and then say your mantra over and over again. Devoid of facts or any genuine discourse or interest in the facts

when this is pointed out, you deny everything and get all "its not about winning, its about loving each other ..." cr@p

Its just all rather trying

VladimirV wrote:

harold1968 wrote:

Godfrey, we can't win against these demons and trolls
however being right"er" has its advantages

Why so defensive and what do you want to win? Why is it always about winning or losing, can't someone be a bit sceptic about Leica and question it without being branded a demon or troll?

The whole right"er" makes no sense since there is no right or wrong with cameras but simply personal choice. That said, one should be comfortable enough with his choice to be able to have a discussion/debate with someone who questions the camera.

If it makes you feel better then you win and you are right (not sure about what you win or you are right but there you go).

I asked you a few simple questions and did not agree with your statement that the M9 is the perfect travel camera and that it has no compromises. Since you are right, it should be easy to just tell me why you think so.

Is the Leica forum really only there to praise Leica cameras and pictures taken with them? Is there no place for a differing view or a civilized discussion about Leica cameras with people who might disagree?

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Artichoke
Artichoke Forum Pro • Posts: 12,387
Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

VladimirV wrote:

So if a M8 goes for 2000 EUR on ebay now and new it was around 6000 EUR, this means it lost 4000 EUR in value. This would have bought you at least 5 NEX and you would not even need to worry about the resell value but have had a new NEX every year.

but I think you inflated the initial price of the M8 considerably
it was released at under $5000
the dollar was below parity with the Euro
certainly a Leica M is not for everyone, nor have they ever been
it certainly is not an all in one photographic tool
for some folks, myself included, it is the best system for what they do

Leica bashers frequent this forum & we have thick skins by & large but I hate to see inaccuracies put forth to forward a specious argument
--
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VladimirV Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!

harold1968 wrote:

None of what you said below is true

Maybe you should re-read what you wrote before.

You come to this forum and say 10 times a day that the M9 is rubbish

Now THIS is certainly not true. I did not once say the M9 is rubbish but just taht I don't see what he big deal is about.

When someone points out it isn't, you pretend not to read what they write and then say your mantra over and over again. Devoid of facts or any genuine discourse or interest in the facts

when this is pointed out, you deny everything and get all "its not about winning, its about loving each other ..." cr@p

Are you sure you are not talking about yourself there?

You have not presented any facts but your opinion as fact. I presented facts you ignored and chose to say the mantra over and over again as to how everything about the M9 is great and there are no problems at all.

Its just all rather trying

Trying and disappointing that you can't have a decent conversation.

JeffS7444 Regular Member • Posts: 285
Re: not a competitor, but

starwolfy wrote:

One of the major point which is forgotten here is that buying Leica lenses is a kind of investment.
They are expensive, but provide the best quality and will last a life time.

I would not plan on my Leica M "investment" to fund my retirement Use and enjoy the gear, and if you make a profit in resale, that's a bonus. We've seen some pretty remarkable price increases since 2005, but who knows how sustainable these are? Leave speculation to those who can afford to lose money.

VladimirV Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

Artichoke wrote:

but I think you inflated the initial price of the M8 considerably
it was released at under $5000
the dollar was below parity with the Euro

Not that it really matters but say it was released at 4000 EUR and now it's 2000 EUR, so it lost 50% of it's value and still means one could have bought 3 NEX cameras just for the depreciation of the M8.

DavidGBK Senior Member • Posts: 1,062
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

Am I missing something

M8 was released in 2006.

Nex5 was released in 2010

So if you were buying a M8 on release there was no Nex5 to consider.

VladimirV Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

DavidGBK wrote:

Am I missing something

Yes, this was purely and example on depreciation by taking a random camera.

DavidGBK Senior Member • Posts: 1,062
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

But your example was entirley impossible.

You would have to compare an M8 to some other camera available at the time - not one released 4 years later!

CFynn Veteran Member • Posts: 5,224
Re: Say it Isn't So!!!!

harold1968 wrote:

thats a side show

most M4/3 users who want M mount buy voigtlander or zeiss.
Leica is too expensive, doesn't make sense for most people

If you read the M4/3 and NEX forums, here and elsewhere, there are a considerable number of users buying Leica lenses - though many of them seem to be in Asia.

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VladimirV Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

DavidGBK wrote:

But your example was entirley impossible.

You would have to compare an M8 to some other camera available at the time - not one released 4 years later!

It was not even my example, I just replied to another post who said the depreciation on Leica cameras is not that big.

In any case, I still ask what would be a better buy, get a GXR Mount or NEX-5n now for £1000 and replace it with the latest model for the next 5 years or buy one M9 for £5000 and be able to resell it in two years for £2500?

DavidGBK Senior Member • Posts: 1,062
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

I would get the M9 and keep it for the rest of my life.

Which is what I am doing.

I will leave it in my will to my eldest daughter.

VladimirV Senior Member • Posts: 2,659
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

DavidGBK wrote:

I will leave it in my will to my eldest daughter.

This is very good and I hope she will enjoy using it as much as you do.

tomkmem Forum Member • Posts: 88
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

Why the eldest? More keen on photography or just to make the middle/youngest jealous?

But what happens when the 20 year old M9 breaks (which is undoubtedly will) and needs repair. She could either get it fixed if they still produce PCB's for antique digital cameras or put it in a glass cabinet.

If i was inheriting a camera, I would take a film M any day over a digital... but then again I doubt this will ever happen given i'm the middle child.

DavidGBK wrote:

I would get the M9 and keep it for the rest of my life.

Which is what I am doing.

I will leave it in my will to my eldest daughter.

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DavidGBK Senior Member • Posts: 1,062
Re: Leica Forum is friendly, VladmirV

Yes the eldest is into photography.

I gave her my D70 when I upgraded to D700.

I understand the film argument but I like the immediacy of reviewing the image with digital. My keeper ratio is low

OP stevielee Senior Member • Posts: 1,138
Re: not a competitor, but

PJ711 wrote:

I tend to agree with the view that the Leica lenses are quite capable of holding up their value in the long run, but their M8 and M9 bodies depreciate just like every other digital body, fast.

Even the examples above show that to be true. The M8, which by the way I owned and happily used for 2 years, has clearly depreciated by 70% since its introduction at a list of $5K. Comparing it to the NEX5 doesn't make much sense to me, frankly, because while it may be true that in percentage ownership the NEX has depreciated even more quickly, in absolute dollars the M8 has lost 4x the total price of the NEX. At the same time, new Leica lenses bought 4 years ago, when the M8 came out, have probably appreciated rather than depreciated. So, like the equipment or love it or whatever your feelings about it, there is an unavoidable fact that the market doesn't particularly value a digital M any more highly than a last-generation FF. You will lose thousands of dollars if you buy it new, use it for 2 years and then sell it.

BTW, I haven't been on here much but was interested in this thread since I'm quite interested in the upcoming Fuji. I'm not sure calling someone a troll because he disagrees with your views is such a good thing. Is this one of those forums?

Kudos to you for the post above. You've eloquently said what I have been trying to say here, but much more succinctly.

The reason some of the Leicaphile posters on this particulate thread have glammed onto the Sony Nex5 -- is simply because (depreciation, or not), it's a superior digital imaging tool (in overall IQ output) as compared to the fading M8. And for what it's worth (in the real-world resale market valuation scheme of things), most higher end digital cameras obviously depreciate much more slowly than the most of the lower-end cameras (ala NEX5 vs M8). which is do to the basic fact that there are longer release cycles for higher end cameras (once every 2-3 years), and much shorter release cycles for mid-to-lower end cameras (12-18months ), as is the case for Sony's NX compact series. So it only makes sense that cameras like the NEX5n will depreciate faster than a full-fledged Flagship DSLR might, since it will most likely be obsoleted much quicker with the release of a newer, improved model - as is the case for the NEX7 now handily eclipsing it's older sibling: the NEX5n. The M8 (and M82), have had only one new M-Series camera eclipsing it since it was first released way back in 2007, nearly 4 1/2years ago. If Leica had the ability and wherewithal to be able to put out new cameras anywhere near the pace that Sony is able to do, then the M8 would be trumped at least 4 to 5 x times by newer M-series Leicas by now. Such is not the case.

And, as pointed out by you, and other here, losing a couple of hundred $$$US on a camera is far more financial absorbable for most of us than losing many thousands of $$$US, as has been the case with the M8. If you consider the 3-3.5K loss (the actual depreciation in dollars the M8 has suffered since it's initial release) that large amount of money (for some of us) could have purchased a heck of alot of very nice photo gear

instead of holding onto a 4+ year old camera body that has been majorly neo-obsoleted since it was first available. If given the option between the two, I'd much rather own one of the Epson RD1's for less than 1.5K, than own a IR contaminated, and seriously eclipsed Leica M8. The RD1 is just as well built (if not better), but with superior overall IQ, and also with a native M-mount.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-Epson-R-D1-Cult-Camera-Leica-M-Mount-Digital-Rangefinder-R-D1s-m8-m9-/320824527078?pt=Digital_Cameras&hash=item4ab2a1c8e6

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