X-10 canvas-like texture in dark areas

Started Dec 31, 2011 | Discussions
PabloF
OP PabloF Senior Member • Posts: 1,047
The last image should have been this one

The last image in the series should have been this one, same sharpening as the others:

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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Veteran Member • Posts: 6,521
Re: The last image should have been this one

PabloF wrote:

The last image in the series should have been this one, same sharpening as the others:

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Paolo

Thank you for paying attention to this issue, and clarifying matters with your own studies.

I think it is a problem inherent to the EXR philosophy, not necessarily a problem in the sensor itself but more likely with the in-camera processing. I think it has to do with imperfections in the meshing of the two image matrices that operate in tandem in the sensor.

However, I don't think we will see a fix for this anytime soon, and I'm glad you are pointing out a way around this problem.

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Tom Schum

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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Veteran Member • Posts: 6,521
Re: X-10 canvas-like texture in dark areas

Today I took a few pictures of a co-worker's office decoration. Nice photos until I looked closer.
Here are two close-up views of the same scene.

One started out as Large Fine (12 mpix) and the other was Medium Fine (6 mpix). Also, sharpness in the medium fine shot was set to medium-hard, and in the large fine shot it was set to standard.

The large one showed clearly the canvas-like texturing, and the medium one did not show it at all.

I cropped the same small view out of the center of each, then resized the large image to 1/root2, to match the pixels of the medium one. After resizing I was surprised because the canvas-like texture almost disappeared (that is, it became far less noticeable). I then cropped the same image area out of that resized image.

Then I used photoshop Elements 9 and applied autosharpening to both (this is really excessive sharpening if you ask me). The canvas-like texture is still visible in the resized large shot, but not at all in the medium shot.

Also, I'm posting the 100% crop of the large shot before resizing. Excessive sharpening has not been applied to it. The canvas-like texture is clearly visible in the shadowed areas.

From this test set my conclusion is that the best prints from my X10 will be from Medium Fine (6 mpix) images.

These are the camera setups:

Large fine, ISO1600, DR200, Astia simulation, color high, sharpness standard, highlight tone medium-hard, shadow tone medium-hard, noise reduction low.

Medium fine, ISO1600, DR200, Astia simulation, color high, sharpness medium-hard, highlight tone medium-hard, shadow tone medium-hard, noise reduction low.

Also, it's interesting to see that viewing these at the various available enlargements in the DPR forum will make the canvas-like texture disappear sometimes. So you might have to work at it a little.

I'll be making a large print of the bigger image (you are only seeing a small crop of it) and I'm sure my co-worker will just love it, canvas or not, because most people simply don't worry about that stuff. Me, I like to nit-pick. It's part of the fun of owning this X10. By the way, I shot in available light at ISO1600 and compared to my other cameras the X10 did an excellent job as usual.

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Tom Schum

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PhotOptimist Veteran Member • Posts: 3,249
Re: X-10 canvas-like texture in dark areas

Hi Tom,
I've never used ISO 1600.
With such lens and imager ISO 800 is good enough.
That's why I bought X10.
I try to keep ISO as low as possible.
Even at F2.8 I get sharp photos.

PabloF
OP PabloF Senior Member • Posts: 1,047
Re: X-10 canvas-like texture in dark areas

Tom Schum wrote:

These are the camera setups:

Large fine, ISO1600, DR200, Astia simulation, color high, sharpness standard, highlight tone medium-hard, shadow tone medium-hard, noise reduction low.

Medium fine, ISO1600, DR200, Astia simulation, color high, sharpness medium-hard, highlight tone medium-hard, shadow tone medium-hard, noise reduction low.

Hi Tom,

I think you meant ISO 125-200, as the exif data shows.

This is consistent with what I find: the texture appears in jpg Large fine at about ISO200, builds up to 800, and at 1600 disappears in favour of a different, more "conventional" type of noise. It's as if a different processing algorithm kicked in between 800 and 1600 ISO (I haven't gone into more detail to see the exact ISO at which the change occurs). See my post 8 days ago above.

What I have also found is that using EXR HR mode attenuates (without completely eliminating) the canvas texture effect.

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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Veteran Member • Posts: 6,521
Re: X-10 canvas-like texture in dark areas

PabloF wrote:

I think you meant ISO 125-200, as the exif data shows.

This is consistent with what I find: the texture appears in jpg Large fine at about ISO200, builds up to 800, and at 1600 disappears in favour of a different, more "conventional" type of noise. It's as if a different processing algorithm kicked in between 800 and 1600 ISO (I haven't gone into more detail to see the exact ISO at which the change occurs). See my post 8 days ago above.

What I have also found is that using EXR HR mode attenuates (without completely eliminating) the canvas texture effect.

Paolo,
Yes, my mistake. It was AUTO ISO 1600 so the camera chose the real ISO!

I have seen the texture effect in EXR HR mode also. The other day I thought I was seeing some moire in EXR HR. When I looked at the camera display for the particular shots that showed it, and zoomed in a little bit at a time, the effect would come and go. It was highly variable, but I could see it very clearly in the camera display. I think this is a useful way to review any photo to see if any sort of texturing is going on, but of course the camera display is small and sometimes you can miss it in the camera. I was hoping that EXR HR would give me sharp photos without the effect but as we both know this is not happening.

I think you have put the X10 through all the modes that result in this effect. I am still learning. I think you are more interested in finding the limits of the camera than I am, and I am just trying to make pictures without flaws. So we have different approaches.

For now, I am taking my photos in JPG Medium Fine so I can avoid the effect. For the low light shooting I like to do, there are no other options I can use. All the other options I've tried so far are giving me the effect. It's kind of depressing if I think about it, but the X10 works very well in this one mode so I am ok for now.

Its really amazing to see this effect. I have not seen this in any other digital camera I have ever owned up until now.

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Tom Schum

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PabloF
OP PabloF Senior Member • Posts: 1,047
Re: X-10 canvas-like texture in dark areas

Tom Schum wrote:

I think you have put the X10 through all the modes that result in this effect. I am still learning. I think you are more interested in finding the limits of the camera than I am, and I am just trying to make pictures without flaws. So we have different approaches.

Well, I have just done a few tests, I'm not a pixel-peeper, but since I noticed this right away and since I have never seen this effect on any of the L size jpg shots I've seen in the DPReview samples or in any other test shots I've come across on the web I have been wondering if my camera has a problem, which could affect images even shot in RAW or jpg M size. I have posted a comment/question on the DPR X-10 preview but got no answer. I hope that when the DPR review comes out we will get conclusive indications one way or another.

For now, I am taking my photos in JPG Medium Fine so I can avoid the effect. For the low light shooting I like to do, there are no other options I can use. All the other options I've tried so far are giving me the effect. It's kind of depressing if I think about it, but the X10 works very well in this one mode so I am ok for now.

Its really amazing to see this effect. I have not seen this in any other digital camera I have ever owned up until now.

I agree, I am also using M mode only to avoid this. A bit disappointing, considering also the orbs issue which has ruined a few photos I have taken and is a limiting factor for me as I like shooting into the light, one of the conditions which is orb-prone

Still hoping for a firmware fix...

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spencerda Senior Member • Posts: 1,279
Re: X-10 canvas-like texture even in EXR mode!

Hummm, wonder if Im going to be happy with the X10 Orb's not withstanding.

I like to print on 13 x 19 paper and if Im really working with 6mp and prints from my G10 and S90 are going to have more resolution, it may not work for me.

I come from a mindset that small prints and viewing on line is fine, but I'm most happy when I can print large, matt, frame and display.

Now I understand resolution and MP are not everything, quality of Pixels count for a lot, but what have others experanced as regards printing large with X10 files?

Dave
--
take it slow

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Tom Schum
Tom Schum Veteran Member • Posts: 6,521
X-10 canvas-like texture not seen in Raw files

I tried shooting full res (Large image size, fine JPG) in Raw+JPG.

The JPG shot showed the canvas-like texture, and the Raw version did not show it.

I used the Fuji X10-specific version of Silkypix (came with the camera) to develop and oversharpen the Raw file. Then I saved it as a JPG.

I used Photoshop elements 9 to crop both versions, then applied sharpening to both to really bring out any texturing that might be going on.

Texture is visible in the top area of the crop in the JPG shot, but normal oversharp noise is visible in the version processed from the raw file. First shot is JPG out of camera, and second shot is processed from the raw file.

So, based on these results, it appears that the canvas-like texturing is an artifact of the in-camera JPG engine. Either that, or it is efficiently removed from the raw file by Silkypix. At least, now I know a way to use all 12 megapixels without this problem.

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Tom Schum

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