AA batteries no longer the trend?

Started Oct 31, 2011 | Discussions
T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,255
Re: Standardized rechargeable Li-Ion AA?

Darrell Spreen wrote:

T3 wrote:

And at 3.8 x 2.5 x 1.2 inches, the A1200 is noticeably larger and thicker than a 300HS, which measures only 3.6 x 2.2 x 0.8 inches. In fact, it's about a quarter inch taller, quarter inch longer, and almost half an inch thicker than the 300HS! So it's really not the same size as a 300HS.

Good grief! The 300HS dimensions aren't magic! Of course the A1200 is not the SAME size as the 300HS. The 300HS is the 300HS -- this isn't. Yet the A1200 is very slim and slips easily into a slim pair of jeans. So do other cameras that aren't the 300HS. Is your point compact size or something else?

No, the point is compact size. Those size differences make a big difference when shoppers compare cameras at the local Best Buy, Target, Walmart, and Costco, etc.

And given that these cameras are so compact, there really isn't much need for a molded grip. A bit of texture, or a minimalist finger ridge like on the S100 is all you really need,

Reading the forums, you'll find that lots of people are looking to buy grips for their compact cameras -- they need them. It helps a lot when you have large hands. Probably not necessary for one-handed happy snapping though.

LOLOL! TOO funny. You show an interchangeble-lens, not-slim, practically non-pocketable camera that is much larger than a 300HS or S100 as evidence that people want or need grips on their slim, compact P&S cameras!?! Furthermore, that grip option is an option that most Nikon 1 customers wont be exercising anyways. And Nikon market research, experience, and expertise probably led them to that conclusion as well, resulting in the gripless or minimal-grip designs of their J1 and V1 bodies.

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DonA2
DonA2 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,342
Re: Standardized rechargeable Li-Ion AA?
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Just one small example as to why people tend to like the AAs. My old S2 and SX10 have 4- AA cells. The new SX40 uses a very expensive proprietary battery. Camera bulk has gone up with the newest model.

Now certainly the newer thin packs are needed for the pocket P&S cams but not so much for SZs and DSLRs. It really isn't a deal breaker for me. Horses for courses.
Don V. Armitage

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DonA2
DonA2 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,342
Re: The law varies. Here in my town...

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

PHOTOJOE55 wrote:

In our recycling system, there is no mention of batteries. What is the proper disposal of Alkaline, and of Li-oN, They both say, "DISPOSE OF PROPERLY" and "KEEP OUT OF FIRE" but our city (311) number does not know, and Dept. of Sanitation can not be reached. I'm in New York (shouldn't matter) but what guidelines should we follow? I'M trying to follow the law. Does any one know? Would you be kind enough to tell me?

Sorry, Joe, but the law varies wildly from area to area.

Here, in one of the western suburbs of Detroit, we're supposed to place any sort of batteries (NiCad, alkaline, AA lithium, rechargeable lithium, doesn't matter) in a clear plastic bag in the red recycleables bin with the juice bottles and paper waste.

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I too would like to see a national battery disposal system. Where I live we drop alkalines off in a bin in our village center. All rechargables must go back to the selling shop. You can see that doesn't really work well so people will just take the easy way out and dispose of the works in regular trash.
Don V. Armitage

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T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,255
Re: Standardized rechargeable Li-Ion AA?

dona2 wrote:

The SX40's "very expensive" battery is the NB-10L, which can be bought for under $20, measures a mere 1.5 x 1.4 x 0.5 inch, and weighs 1.3 oz (36.8 grams)

http://www.mallbox.net/goods-1308-Canon+NB-10L+Rechargeable+Equivalent+Digital+Camera+Battery.html

Four AA batteries, on the other hand, take up more space. As for weight, the average weight of AA batteries is:

alkaline AA: 23 g
lithium AA: 15 g
rechargeable NiMH AA: 31 g
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AA_battery

So four AA batteries will weigh from 60 grams to as much as 124 grams, compared to the 36.8 grams of an NB-4L battery! If you're using four rechargeable NiMH AA's, you're talking about more than triple the weight of a single NB-4L! Almost 90 grams in additional battery weight alone. Camera bulk might have gone up for any particular camera, but it certainly isn't due to the use of a proprietary battery. On the contrary, the use of a proprietary battery keeps the weight and bulk down . In other words, if the SX40 still used four AA batteries like the SX10, it would be even bulkier than it is now! Nice try, dona2. LOL.

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T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,255
Re: No to AA's

Ring A wrote:

RedFox88 wrote:

T3 wrote:

RedFox88 wrote:

T3 wrote:

I don't know why anyone would want AA batteries in compact cameras. OEM rechargeable batteries are so much better.

Yet most likely you would not need to "run out" to get AAs as they are > standard and if you relied on AAs you would have a supply.

A aa battery user is as likely to forget extra aa's about as likely you you leaving your house without your pants on!

Sorry, pal, but the market has spoken. Small electronic devices (mp3 players, cameras, cell phones, tablets, etc.) all tend to sell better when they have compact proprietary batteries. No one is screaming for cell phones or mp3 players that use AA batteries. And quite frankly, fewer people prefer to buy cameras that use AA batteries, too, even though they sit on store shelves right next to the ones that use proprietary batteries.

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T3 Forum Pro • Posts: 21,255
you have it backwards

Ring A wrote:

T3 wrote:

Ring A wrote:

T3 wrote:

RedFox88 wrote:

I've found that not everyone is very environmentally friendly. In general I've found those with kids under 18 and married are more into convenience of having batteries to grab whenever needed, and throw away when dead. Because having to charge batteries and know what has been charged and when is another thing to complicate their lives. Just my observation.

And yet I've found that the sales of cameras with proprietary rechargeable > batteries overwhelmingly outsell cameras with AA batteries.

But that's because most cameras today use proprietary .... phew, tough one

There used to be plenty of cameras that used AA batteries. But as time went > on, the ones with proprietary batteries outsold the ones that used AA batteries.

But only because of the options that the MFG left was propitiatory or buy another camera.

Sorry, pal, but the market has spoken. Small electronic devices (mp3 players, cameras, cell phones, tablets, etc.) all tend to sell better when they have compact proprietary batteries. No one is screaming for cell phones or mp3 players that use AA batteries. And quite frankly, fewer people prefer to buy cameras that use AA batteries, too, even though they sit on store shelves right next to the ones that use proprietary batteries. If cameras that used AA batteries truly were more popular, then that's what the manufacturers would be offering! After all, that would be a cost savings for the camera maunfacturers. That would mean that they wouldn't have to include an OEM battery and charger with every camera they sold! It simply isn't financially advantageous to have to put a proprietary battery and charger in every camera package they sell. And most people never buy an additional battery, so the manufacturers don't really make any money off of additional battery sales. Not to mention that there are third-party clone batteries that people can buy for cheaper. So your assertion that manufacturers schemed to force everyone into using proprietary batteries just doesn't hold water. In reality, it's the market that drove manufacturers in that direction. If manufacturers had their way, they'd just throw a couple cheap alkalines into every camera package to get you started, and that'd be that. But that's not what consumers prefer. Consumers prefer small, compact, lightweight, rechargeable...and the best solution to achieve that was with proprietary OEM batteries.

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Henrik Andersson Senior Member • Posts: 2,454
No Nikon!

What ever you do don't get a Nikon using AA batteries.

Ok, I only have experience with two different models that were released with many years in between them but both have pathetic battery time. I can even use the batteries for other tasks after the Nikon cameras can't use them any more.

Well, other Nikon cameras with AA batteries might be better but you are warned :-), please verify with good reviews before you buy. My fiancées father didn't (Many years ago) and neither did I recently when I bought my young son a cheap P&S to play with, even though I knew how much my 'father in law' have complained about the battery life of his Nikon with AA batteries.

I have no experience of the Canon cameras that usees AA batteries.
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Henrik

CharlieDIY
CharlieDIY Veteran Member • Posts: 7,120
Re: No Nikon!

Henrik Andersson wrote:

What ever you do don't get a Nikon using AA batteries.

Ok, I only have experience with two different models that were released with many years in between them but both have pathetic battery time. I can even use the batteries for other tasks after the Nikon cameras can't use them any more.

Well, other Nikon cameras with AA batteries might be better but you are warned :-), please verify with good reviews before you buy. My fiancées father didn't (Many years ago) and neither did I recently when I bought my young son a cheap P&S to play with, even though I knew how much my 'father in law' have complained about the battery life of his Nikon with AA batteries.

I have no experience of the Canon cameras that usees AA batteries.
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What type of batteries did you use?

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Richard Briscoe Regular Member • Posts: 430
Re: AA batteries no longer the trend?

RedFox88 wrote:

myst-vearn wrote:

Are cameras using AA batteries dying or manufactures are keen to get us to spend more on some proprietary battery? Or are proprietary batteries better compared to AA? At least if I'm not using my camera with my rechargeable eneloop's could be used in a range of other devices if they are not used in the camera.

It's a combination. Proprietary battery, plus a li-ion battery can be smaller and possibly lighter than 4 AAs and definitely lasting longer than 2 AAs. The trend is for smaller, lighter cameras.

"Smaller, lighter." Exactly. Many P&S cameras are using proprietary batteries because it allows them the freedom to reduce the size of the camera and us a space that might be oddly shape. If they use AA batteries, the batteries dictate the size of the camera. Even though a fair number of cameras have a shorter battery life than the older AA powered one most of the buyers like the size of the camera.

The Eneloops and other "pre-charged" AA batteries are a vast improvement over the older NiMH AAs, but the lithium ions are better yet.

Sammy Yousef
Sammy Yousef Veteran Member • Posts: 4,655
Re: AA batteries no longer the trend?

This is not a real name wrote:

As an example, the first Canon Ixus camera came out in 2000. Eleven years later, the NB1L battery it takes is still pretty widely available, but how many people are still using that camera?

As a camera enthusiast I avoid proprietary batteries whenever I can. If I can share 2 or 3 sets of AA batteries between 7 or 8 cameras for myself, my wife and my kids, buying yet another camera is no big deal. Even if the camera dies the batteries still can be used. However if I need to shell out $20-$50 per battery per camera it gets very expensive and puts me off buying my next camera. If I'm not using the camera much I really can't justify the expense and effort of ordering another battery - either original and 3 times the price it should be, or a knock off that may or may not work.

There should be standard Lithium battery sizes and voltages just as there are for NiCd/NiMH. There is only one reason this is not the case - planned obsolescence.

For SLRs where I can't use AA, I've purchased multiple bodies that are the same (2nd body usually at its cheapest on closeout) and upgraded less often. For instance it is one factor in why I won't upgrade from Nikon D90 to D7000. My D90 batteries (ENL3e) work in both D90 and D70 (which takes both ENEL3 and ENEL3e) and I was still miffed that I couldn't use the ENEL3 batteries I already had. D7000 uses a new battery (I think in part to comply with new saftey standards, but that doesn't change the reality for me as a consumer).

So the greed on the manufacturer's part can in fact back fire. I buy less cameras, buy cameras at their cheapest on close out instead of upgrading. I'm pretty sure that's not what a DSLR manufacturer wants from an enthusiast.

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Sammy.

My forum postings reflect my own opinions and not those of my employer. I'm not employed in the photo business.

Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 25,423
Re: AA batteries no longer the trend?

I would never use battery size as a reason not to upgrade. I don't regret for one minute upgrading my 30D to the 7D. The camera is so much better that having to buy one extra battery simply doesn't make a difference, even though I still use the 30D as a backup.

Besides, the rechargeable li-ions have a finite life. At some point they won't hold a charge and will need to be replaced anyway.

Mark

Sammy Yousef wrote:

This is not a real name wrote:

As an example, the first Canon Ixus camera came out in 2000. Eleven years later, the NB1L battery it takes is still pretty widely available, but how many people are still using that camera?

As a camera enthusiast I avoid proprietary batteries whenever I can. If I can share 2 or 3 sets of AA batteries between 7 or 8 cameras for myself, my wife and my kids, buying yet another camera is no big deal. Even if the camera dies the batteries still can be used. However if I need to shell out $20-$50 per battery per camera it gets very expensive and puts me off buying my next camera. If I'm not using the camera much I really can't justify the expense and effort of ordering another battery - either original and 3 times the price it should be, or a knock off that may or may not work.

There should be standard Lithium battery sizes and voltages just as there are for NiCd/NiMH. There is only one reason this is not the case - planned obsolescence.

For SLRs where I can't use AA, I've purchased multiple bodies that are the same (2nd body usually at its cheapest on closeout) and upgraded less often. For instance it is one factor in why I won't upgrade from Nikon D90 to D7000. My D90 batteries (ENL3e) work in both D90 and D70 (which takes both ENEL3 and ENEL3e) and I was still miffed that I couldn't use the ENEL3 batteries I already had. D7000 uses a new battery (I think in part to comply with new saftey standards, but that doesn't change the reality for me as a consumer).

So the greed on the manufacturer's part can in fact back fire. I buy less cameras, buy cameras at their cheapest on close out instead of upgrading. I'm pretty sure that's not what a DSLR manufacturer wants from an enthusiast.

Ring A Senior Member • Posts: 1,269
Don't let your Lithium ion freeze
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Ring A Senior Member • Posts: 1,269
Re: Don't let your Lithium ion freeze

There's a switch inside all rechargeable Lithium ion batteries that shuts down the battery when the voltage gets low. We all know that if you wait a while you can power your camera back up and squeeze off a few more shots. This is not good to do because once the voltage goes too low you will no longer be able to charge that battery ever again.

This is a built in safety feature because a run down Lithium ion Rechargeable can become dangerously unstable and can explode.

If a rechargeable Lithium ion battery "freezes" that same safety feature is activated because freezing runs them down quickly.

Double A's do not share this danger, worst is they leak.

Batter technology has advanced greatly over the last few years, size and weight is improving quickly. Someone has to pay for this technology, guess who that is?

Why folks go out and purchase the newest equipment without money being a factor yet shriek at the extra battery cost?

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pierpa Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: Don't let your Lithium ion freeze

Ring A wrote:

Why folks go out and purchase the newest equipment without money being a factor yet shriek at the extra battery cost?

Because they understand the benefits of the new equipment, and understand also that are being screwed with the batteries.

Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 25,423
Re: Don't let your Lithium ion freeze

pierpa wrote:

Ring A wrote:

Why folks go out and purchase the newest equipment without money being a factor yet shriek at the extra battery cost?

Because they understand the benefits of the new equipment, and understand also that are being screwed with the batteries.

The batteries used in the 7D/5D are far better than the BP511 used in previous xxD bodies. It makes sense to improve battery technology.

Mark

joejack951 Senior Member • Posts: 2,682
Re: AA batteries no longer the trend?

Sammy Yousef wrote:

For SLRs where I can't use AA,

I'm not sure about Nikon's other battery grips but the MB-D10 for my D300s came with a tray that accepts 8 AA's to power the camera. Bumps the frame rate up 0.5 FPS too. Makes the camera even heavier though.

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Ring A Senior Member • Posts: 1,269
Re: Don't let your Lithium ion freeze

pierpa wrote:

Ring A wrote:

Why folks go out and purchase the newest equipment without money being a factor yet shriek at the extra battery cost?

Because they understand the benefits of the new equipment, and understand also that are being screwed with the batteries.

But they're not getting screwed with the batteries. Battery technology has improved greatly over the last few years just like digital cameras have.
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'I don't necessarily believe everything I say'!

Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 25,423
Re: AA batteries no longer the trend?

joejack951 wrote:

Sammy Yousef wrote:

For SLRs where I can't use AA,

I'm not sure about Nikon's other battery grips but the MB-D10 for my D300s came with a tray that accepts 8 AA's to power the camera. Bumps the frame rate up 0.5 FPS too. Makes the camera even heavier though.

...and the batteries do not last as long, at least on a Canon DSLR...not to mention you then need to carry a set of 8 AA spares making the weight even more of an issue.

Erick L Senior Member • Posts: 1,243
Re: No to AA's

T3 wrote:

Sorry, pal, but the market has spoken. Small electronic devices (mp3 players, cameras, cell phones, tablets, etc.) all tend to sell better when they have compact proprietary batteries. No one is screaming for cell phones or mp3 players that use AA batteries. And quite frankly, fewer people prefer to buy cameras that use AA batteries, too, even though they sit on store shelves right next to the ones that use proprietary batteries.

Yeah right, the "market". It's not like consumers even had much choice. Of course, this has nothing to do with manufacturers being able to sell more expensive accessories (a D5100 batt here is around 100$, no kidding) or detect 3rd party batteries.

BTW, there are AA-size Li-ion batteries on the market so there's no reason why manufacturers couldn't use standard size batteries. One 7$ 3.6v 18500 Li-ion battery is no bigger than the 28$ panasonic battery in my P&S. The charger isn't any bigger either and it can charge two batteries.

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pierpa Junior Member • Posts: 29
Re: Don't let your Lithium ion freeze

Ring A wrote:

Because they understand the benefits of the new equipment, and understand also that are being screwed with the batteries.

But they're not getting screwed with the batteries. Battery technology has improved greatly over the last few years just like digital cameras have.

Yes, the batteries do improve. But this does not forces them to make the improved ones incompatible with the old ones, does not force them to have each brand a different battery differing only in insignificant details, and does not force them to put chips in the batteries to prevent independent makers to supply compatible batteries.

Chipped batteries are used by a few brands today, but wait a little and we will see no more cheap compatible batteries. UNLESS we vote, with our wallets, against such practices.

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