Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Started Oct 31, 2011 | Discussions
Mark Ehlers Senior Member • Posts: 1,883
I'm just glad...

I'm just glad that someone is finally putting a useable OVF in a digital P&S. It would be nice to have at least focus verification, but I don't want anything else cluttering up the view. I'm about to push the order button myself. It should be nice to use this camera on a 2-week vacation I'm planning for this winter.

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OP millsart Senior Member • Posts: 2,771
Point being ?? Going to blow away a XZ1 then ??

Jim, I'm not a mathematician, I'm a photographer for a living lol.

Fine, its slightly bigger than the slightly bigger I originally said, but so what ?

Is it a APS-C sensor ? No, is it even a m4/3 sized sensor ? No

Its still a pretty small overall sensor in the overall scheme of things and its going to perform far closer to the various other high end compacts than it is anything else.

What do you think its IQ more closely matches ? A NEX5n or a LX5 ??

A Panasonic G3 or a Canon G12 ??

I mean come on, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

It looks to be a fantastic camera for what is it, but it is what it is.

Is the X10 just going to be night and day better than say the Oly XZ1 ? That camera has a 28-112mm equiv zoom and its f1.8 to f2.5.

Technically the X10 has a "slightly" bigger sensor but the two cameras IQ is going to be more similar than different.

X10 for me at least has the edge is design and ergonomics though. I had a XZ1, didn't care for how it worked in hand. Good images though.

What do you expect ?

That if you shot the two side by side people would think the X10 was actually shot be a Pentax K5 it was so clean ?

No, they are going to be pretty hard to tell apart

What exactly are you arguing ?

That the X10 is a good camera ? Agreed

That I should get one ? ALready ordered

Humboldt Jim wrote:

You may define categories any way that you think proves your point. However, you are wrong with regard to relative sensor sizes. Any way you compare 2/3 to 1.1/7, 2/3 is not "only about 10% larger."

A 2/3 sensor compared to a 1/1.7 has 34% more area and a 15.7% longer diagonal. Each of these measurements apply to different photographic attributes.

Add a lens that is 2 to 3x faster than many typical P & S compacts and you have low light capability that goes well beyond even your trivialized differences in sensor size.

HJ
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Re: Older Leica D-Lux 2, 8mp camera

Peter Nelson wrote:

The IQ at ISO 80 comming out of my 5 year old 8mp Leica D-Lux 2 is very good. Good enough for 13" x 19" Landscapes. The colors are very good! Eight Million Mega-Pixels is a lot of detail so this camera is usefull in different styles of photography.

Eight million megapixels! That's 8 trillion pixels! You bet that's a lot of detail.

Humboldt Jim Senior Member • Posts: 1,071
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ?? No

Couldn't possibly be a point and shoot because it has a cable release;-)

HJ

Yialousitis Junior Member • Posts: 48
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ?? No

Let's face it, that X10 is a nice p&s that produces good pictures which in my opinion are for preserving memories and expressing your feelings.

HeavyDuty Senior Member • Posts: 1,831
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ?? No

Seriously though... I've always considered point and shoots to be small cameras with next to no manual overrides (or ones so deeply buried in menus as to be almost unusable.) In film days something like a Yashica T3, in digital one of a multitude of cameras including my trusty Sony DSC-T9.

And then you have the compact cameras that hold more interest for the enthusiast; think a Canonet or my Oly XA, or something like a G12, P7100... or an X10. Small sensor compacts is the term I hear.

Horses for courses. They each have a place.

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adhemar Regular Member • Posts: 204
Re: I'm not glad...

Mark Ehlers wrote:

I'm just glad that someone is finally putting a useable OVF in a digital P&S.

How funny. I was thinking the exact opposite. The X10 would be high on my wish list if it had a good EVF. I just don't want another crappy OVF with 80% coverage, parallax issues, no information on what my picture is going to look like and a first-rate view of the lens barrel.

As for the original question about the X10 being a DSLR replacement, I think most people with a brain realize that the picture quality is going to be mediocre (it's 2/3 sensor, isn't it). The promise of the X10 however is to offer a handling experience very similar to what you get with a DSLR. As such, it has the potential to make DSLR owners happy whenever they don't feel like carrying a big camera.

meanwhile
meanwhile Senior Member • Posts: 1,341
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Suppose a trip to Antarctica costs $5000, and a trip to Paris and Rome costs $5000. Are the trips equally worthy of your consideration because they cost the same? Or maybe, just maybe, is the primary factor what they ARE, and not what they COST?

Paris and Rome have too much noise, and Antarctica blows the highlights and has a low dynamic range.

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Mark Ehlers Senior Member • Posts: 1,883
Re: So sad...

Mark Ehlers wrote:

I'm just glad that someone is finally putting a useable OVF in a digital P&S.

adhemar wrote:

How funny. I was thinking the exact opposite. The X10 would be high on my wish list if it had a good EVF. I just don't want another crappy OVF with 80% coverage, parallax issues, no information on what my picture is going to look like and a first-rate view of the lens barrel.

Not funny, just different perspectives.

I've never met an EVF that I liked. I grew up with rangefinders, and most of those "problems" you mention.

As for the original question about the X10 being a DSLR replacement, I think most people with a brain realize that the picture quality is going to be mediocre (it's 2/3 sensor, isn't it). The promise of the X10 however is to offer a handling experience very similar to what you get with a DSLR. As such, it has the potential to make DSLR owners happy whenever they don't feel like carrying a big camera.

Maybe this is where much of the whining is coming from, with not having all that info in the VF. Many people have never even learned how to shoot a camera (and how it reacts to light) without having all the coaching that your typical DSLR's viewfinder gives you.

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BillCPA Regular Member • Posts: 264
Re: Price doesn't mean much when it comes to cameras

Well said, nice logical message.

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OP millsart Senior Member • Posts: 2,771
Agreed, EVF has its uses, but I'll take optical any day

EVF's have gotten pretty good and the one on the X100, as well as the Oly VF2 and Panny GH2 is very useable, sometimes even better than optical in low light. Havne't even got to try the 2.3meg Sony OLED yet.

However, no matter how good an EVF is, I still fee like I'm looking at a tiny TV. Makes me feel removed from the scene.

With an OVF, especially a RF, or even a big bright external finder, I feel like I'm there, in the scene. I look through and past the OVF, as if its not really there and feel connected to whats happening.

Sounds silly maybe but I just find a big difference in looking at a display, or literally looking through some glass and "being there" so to speak.

I've actually used external Voigtlander finders on my LX5 before as well.

Set the camera to 35mm, put the VF on the hotshoe, focus it to 2 meters, f4, auto ISO, and just frame and shoot

Its a fun way of working sometimes.

X10 sounds great because I don't need a bag of VF's for all the focal lengths (costing several hunred each)

Would be nice if it had more info, I fully agree, but its still cool for what it is and if you use it in the right matter, a fun addition
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solsang
solsang Senior Member • Posts: 1,214
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Isn't there a Leica that is based on the 10.1Mp LX5? Sure it's built more ruggedly, but just like the LX5 could be considered a poor man's Leica, so could the X10.

The LX5 is actually based upon the wishes of Leica, who commisioned Panasonic to make their small (and beautiful) D-lux 5, sharing the costs of development, while offering the same camera to two different user segments

D-lux 5 has a nicer body and comes with Adobe Lightroom, otherwise the cameras and files are the same, i have compared the cameras and a few shots myself, and do prefer the grip on the LX5;)

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solsang
solsang Senior Member • Posts: 1,214
I fully agree;) (n/t)

meanwhile wrote:

Paris and Rome have too much noise, and Antarctica blows the highlights and has a low dynamic range.

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Trevor G Veteran Member • Posts: 6,577
Do some people not realize that Leica clones start out as Pansonics?

solsang wrote:

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Isn't there a Leica that is based on the 10.1Mp LX5? Sure it's built more ruggedly, but just like the LX5 could be considered a poor man's Leica, so could the X10.

The LX5 is actually based upon the wishes of Leica, who commisioned Panasonic to make their small (and beautiful) D-lux 5, sharing the costs of development, while offering the same camera to two different user segments

That's a different take on what almost everyone else believes to be the case (as has been documented numerous times in various forums and other spots on the web):

1) That Panasonic sought Leica's help in designing and approving cetain lenses for use on certain P&S bodies, long before a Panasonic camera was rebadged as a Leica

2) That Leica buy a very small proportion of Panasonic's output of certain models and have it rebadged as a Leica (if it was the other way around Leica models would be released first)

3) That Leica might modify firmware and ergonomics to suit their "look".

If Panasonics were rebadged Leicas then they would be the dearer cameras.

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Archiver Veteran Member • Posts: 3,634
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

solsang wrote:

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Isn't there a Leica that is based on the 10.1Mp LX5? Sure it's built more ruggedly, but just like the LX5 could be considered a poor man's Leica, so could the X10.

The LX5 is actually based upon the wishes of Leica, who commisioned Panasonic to make their small (and beautiful) D-lux 5, sharing the costs of development, while offering the same camera to two different user segments

This is the first time I've ever heard that Leica commissioned Panasonic to build this camera and share development costs. Can the same be said of the earlier LX models? Where did you get this information?

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Trevor G Veteran Member • Posts: 6,577
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Daniel Lauring wrote:

Isn't there a Leica that is based on the 10.1Mp LX5? Sure it's built more ruggedly , but just like the LX5 could be considered a poor man's Leica, so could the X10.

It is?

That might be hard to prove, since there is no discernible difference in construction. Maybe there are slight external design differences, for the sake of styling, but ruggedised? Sadly, they are not.

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Humboldt Jim Senior Member • Posts: 1,071
Re: Point being ?? Going to blow away a XZ1 then ?? Nope

Point being that those who can't or won't do basic photographic arithmetic should not be throwing around bad numbers.

I suspect there are a few 8 to 12 year olds (or so it seems)on this forum who don't know squat about basic photographic principles. I am not among them. I leaned on a Rolliflex and have used an SLR for years. Let's not waste our time on those who think that because it resembles a leica that it will produce the same results.

I'm with you on the "It is what it is" concept. For me, the X10 appears to mach my needs very well. If I were a pro it might be another story. Meanwhile, a fully controllable compact will do fine.

HJ

frelwa Senior Member • Posts: 1,090
Re: Agreed, EVF has its uses, but I'll take optical any day

millsart wrote:

However, no matter how good an EVF is, I still fee like I'm looking at a tiny TV. Makes me feel removed from the scene.

With an OVF, especially a RF, or even a big bright external finder, I feel like I'm there, in the scene. I look through and past the OVF, as if its not really there and feel connected to whats happening.

Yes. That's exactly what I think too but didn't how to say. Thanks.

Sounds silly

Anything but.

Its a fun way of working sometimes.

Almost always except to check framing, focus, histogram etc., which I usually forget to notice on my X100's VFs anyway. Or for VF camera macros.

X10 sounds great because I don't need a bag of VF's for all the focal lengths (costing several hunred each)

Agree. My E-PL2 doesn't go our much these days. Even its one shoe-mount EVF and a couple of lenses mean more Lego play than I like, post-Fuji. With the lens hood, even my lens cap stays in my pocket while shooting.
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OP millsart Senior Member • Posts: 2,771
I apolgize if my math was bad, but the results will hold true

Okay, so my "about 10%" comment was a bit off, but regardless we are still talking about what is a pretty small difference, measuring, again, about 1mm each way.

1mm, or be it 1.08mm, or .98mm etc all are tiny when put into perspective of m4/3, APS-C etc.

m4/3 for example is about 3.4x times the area of 2/3 sensor if I'm not mistaken.

34% increase in surface area over 1/1.7 sensor by comparison is pretty trivial.

Don't get me wrong, I'll take! I'll take a 1mm larger over 1mm smaller sensor any day, but original point being, its not going to really change things.

Its not a big enough difference to give a dramatic increase in DoF, nor is it going to allow it vastly better high ISO etc.

Thats the point I was trying to make.

I see comments from people complaining its too noisy at ISO800, and its like, hello, its a tiny little sensor still.

It would be nice if its "oversized" sensor really did do wonders, and break the laws of physics, but thats not going to happen (at least in this dimension)

Its not going to give shallow DOF except at very close subject to camera macro distance or at full zoom, and even then, its still pretty mild.

But again, its better than nothing, and if you want that type of look, its the wrong camera. Get a big sensor, throw a fast 50 on it and your in business.

But great photos really aren't made jsut based on shallow DoF alone, despite what many interet forums where wide open fast glass shots get oooh and ahhs because people are more interested in focus transitions and render style than subject matter (not there theres anything wrong with that)

Humboldt Jim wrote:

Point being that those who can't or won't do basic photographic arithmetic should not be throwing around bad numbers.

I suspect there are a few 8 to 12 year olds (or so it seems)on this forum who don't know squat about basic photographic principles. I am not among them. I leaned on a Rolliflex and have used an SLR for years. Let's not waste our time on those who think that because it resembles a leica that it will produce the same results.

I'm with you on the "It is what it is" concept. For me, the X10 appears to mach my needs very well. If I were a pro it might be another story. Meanwhile, a fully controllable compact will do fine.

HJ
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Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 18,309
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

meanwhile wrote:

Suppose a trip to Antarctica costs $5000, and a trip to Paris and Rome costs $5000. Are the trips equally worthy of your consideration because they cost the same? Or maybe, just maybe, is the primary factor what they ARE, and not what they COST?

Paris and Rome have too much noise, and Antarctica blows the highlights and has a low dynamic range.

LOL!
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