Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Started Oct 31, 2011 | Discussions
millsart Senior Member • Posts: 2,771
Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

I've really confused by some of the threads and comments I've been seeing regradig the X10.

Do some people not realize this is a point and shoot camera and think its going to replace their Leica, DSLR, X100, m4/3 gear etc ??

All these complaints about noise levels, lack of resolution etc. Its a small sensor point and shoot, what do people expect ??

Its "bigger" 2/3 sensor is really only about 10% or so bigger than than of the LX5, G12 and all the other premium compact.

Thats not going to make a huge difference in performance, nor DoF. Its still a small sensor and isn't going to come close to even APS-C, nor should anyone expect it to.

All this camera is is a very cool retro styled point and shoot with some really nice ergonomic direct controls, good (for a p&s) image quality, and a pretty nice fast zoom and an OVF thats usable, but nothing better than sticking an external finder on a LX5 or other cameras, aside from that it zooms, which is cool.

Thats is, its not going to replace a Leica, or be a poor man's Leica, or even a poor man X100 or any other camera.

All its going to be is a fun little point and shoot that handles really well and can take pictures that are good for a point and shoot.

Not going to a low light machine, not going to be a pro wedding shooters camera, not going to produce fine art 20X30" prints etc.

Its going to do the same roles you'd carry a G12, LX5, P7000 etc for, but with a bit more style and a nice interface.

I think its awesome for what it is, I handled one, loved it and have mine on order, but lets just have some sense of perspective here folks.

Remember, its just a point and shoot, treat it like one and you'll be happy. Think its going to allow you to sell off all your other gear, have a better sensor than a NEX5n or K5 etc is just silly.

noobdprseller Regular Member • Posts: 437
Canon 1DX & Nikon D3s = glorified p&s

What i really liked about X10 (apart from the usual) is that i could set up the menu just as i liked and trust it to deliver, just i would if i set up 1DX & D3s .

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Glen Barrington
Glen Barrington Forum Pro • Posts: 20,020
So it's a rich man's G12?

That's good enough for me. . .
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Daniel Lauring
Daniel Lauring Veteran Member • Posts: 9,342
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Isn't there a Leica that is based on the 10.1Mp LX5? Sure it's built more ruggedly, but just like the LX5 could be considered a poor man's Leica, so could the X10.

millsart wrote:

Thats is, its not going to replace a Leica, or be a poor man's Leica,

BillCPA Regular Member • Posts: 264
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

I have no intentions on having the X10 'replace' my DSLR (Nikon D700) but supplement it. I don't care what it is called 'Point and shoot', 'enthusiasts camera', all I know is it fits exactly what I am looking for.
Bill

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Joel Stern
Joel Stern Forum Pro • Posts: 10,926
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

It is a bit more than a Point and Shoot, but yes, it is close. It is a camera for the professional to be able to carry around everywhere. It can shoot RAW, manual, Aperture Priority, Shutter priority in addition to the traditional point and shoot scene modes and the program mode...it is a tool like an LX3,4,5 etc, Canon G's, Canon S90 and up. It is not a Fuji F30, F200, etc. It is not a Ricoh CX, it is more. It is also a bit large for a point and shoot, you have to be willing accept this compromise, like with the above and the Oly XZ1..... You can coax more from it than you can some others cameras (at least I hope so)...... is this a point and shoot, if so that is fine, but I have a feeling it is a bit more.

desertpullout Junior Member • Posts: 34
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Totally agree on all points, although for Leicaphiles like myself the X10 will be a fun alternative.

I do not think this is a professional camera at all, although I'm guessing it will be used that way with decent results.

jonrobertp Forum Pro • Posts: 12,875
OP-- you're right. With a touch of icing on top. And nice lens. nt
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Jon Schick Veteran Member • Posts: 4,405
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

I agree - although to be honest I think that most decent photographers can coax decent images out of most half-decent cameras nowadays, even those which are "only" a point and shoot.

Sure, the X10 is not going to be capable of stunning poster-size prints, and images may look grotty at 100% viewing size too. But for viewing on the web (which is probably what most people do with their images), printing at sizes most of us can afford, or making into photobooks and the like, it ought to be quite capable in all but the more demanding circumstances.

Clearly you're never going to be able to control depth of field like a larger sensor camera, and there's a limit to what you can expect with noise too - but other than that, it should be reasonably capable. And in terms of noise, my first impressions are that it is rather better than my Olympus E-1 SLR - which was perfectly adequate for many professionals only a few years ago - times and standards move on....

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caissam Contributing Member • Posts: 793
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

Its a cam which is sold for the same price of a dslr 1000D, Nikon D3100, Sony NEX 5 or GF2 , PL1 or PEN p2.
So it is their competition and could be compared if U want decide between them.

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Mark H
Mark H Veteran Member • Posts: 3,742
It's no more a 'P&S' than any DSLR is a also 'P&S'...

millsart wrote:

I've really confused by some of the threads and comments I've been seeing regradig the X10.

Do some people not realize this is a point and shoot camera...

I think you (and many others) misuse the term "point and shoot".

The very words/definition refer to a camera designed for ' simple operation ' so that people can simply 'point it' and 'shoot it'.

In that respect the X10, and similar cameras, are no more/no less 'point and shoot' than most DSLRs etc.

Virtually all DSLRs can be used as 'point and shoot' (in full 'Auto' modes) - and I've no doubt many consumers use them that way too.

Similarly, many cameras like the X10 also have full 'Manual' and all the other non-advanced control modes, like PASM etc, that DSLRs have too.

In some ways the X10 is even more complex than most DSLRs with all the extra (confusing to many) 'EXR' modes on top of the usual 'PASM' etc.

All these complaints about noise levels, lack of resolution etc. Its a small sensor point and shoot, what do people expect ??

Its "bigger" 2/3 sensor is really only about 10% or so bigger than than of the LX5, G12 and all the other premium compact.

Its actually about +20% bigger linearly, or +40% by area.

Thats not going to make a huge difference in performance, nor DoF. Its still a small sensor and isn't going to come close to even APS-C, nor should anyone expect it to.

That's not entirely true.

Theoretically, the faster lens of the X10 versus a slower kit-lens of a m4/3 or APS-C cameras - this makes them all about equal in most respects.

The big difference only comes if you buy better/costlier lenses for the larger sensor interchangeable lens cameras.

All this camera is is a very cool retro styled point and shoot with some really nice ergonomic direct controls, good (for a p&s) image quality, and a pretty nice fast zoom and an OVF thats usable, but nothing better than sticking an external finder on a LX5 or other cameras, aside from that it zooms, which is cool.

Thats is, its not going to replace a Leica, or be a poor man's Leica, or even a poor man X100 or any other camera.

Whilst the image quality may not be as good - many would say the 4x zoom of the X10 makes the X10 far better overall - it just depends on what one's priorities/requirements are.

All its going to be is a fun little point and shoot that handles really well and can take pictures that are good for a point and shoot.

I think you are now just sounding denigrating, and patronising.

The camera can be, and is a lot more than just "...a fun little point and shoot.." .

It's a great 'compact - all rounder'.

Not going to a low light machine, not going to be a pro wedding shooters camera, not going to produce fine art 20X30" prints etc.

Its going to do the same roles you'd carry a G12, LX5, P7000 etc for, but with a bit more style and a nice interface.

I'd agree with that - although the "...more style..." is a subjective thing - I'm sure that there are some people for whom the X10 is just plain ugly and boring looking to them.

I think its awesome for what it is, I handled one, loved it and have mine on order, but lets just have some sense of perspective here folks.

Remember, its just a point and shoot, treat it like one and you'll be happy.

Not any more so, nor any less so, than any DSLR, etc are also a 'point and shoot'.

It just depends how you use them.

OP millsart Senior Member • Posts: 2,771
Mine you I'm not suggesting P&S are bad either, I even love my iPhone camera

Mine you with this post that I'm not trying to say point and shoots are bad either, but simply that they are what they are. Used within the realms of what they can and can't do, they can be fantastic tools and many times a better choice than other cameras with far superior specs.

I actually even love my iPhone. In fact, I probably have taken more pictures with it than any camera I've owned (short of my work DSLR) Doesn't produce technically great pictures, but it works great for the type of shots I use it for, and taking photos to share with friends, post to the web etc.

I got to handle the X10 briefly and didn't have my own SD so didn't get to shoot my own images, but from just the handling, its really nice and should just be a really fun camera to toss in my carry on bag, jacket pocket etc.

I'll hopefully have mine soon, but I'm certainly not going to pull out the D3 and shoot them both at ISO3200, just as I've never once bothered to shoot newspapers on the wall with my iPhone.

I haven't a clue if my iPhone camera has soft corners because I don't use it in a way where that would matter, just as with my X10, I'm not going to use it in that respect but just like with the iPhone, I know its a point and shoot camera.

I'm a bigger fan of ergonomics and handling than IQ overall as well, so for me, I'm thinking the X10 is going to be the best p&s I've owned in fact.

OP millsart Senior Member • Posts: 2,771
Price doesn't mean much when it comes to cameras

Does anyone pick a camera just on price though ?

Would someone equally consider a D3100 or a GF2, to use examples you gave, and pick one or the other based on price ? If one went on sale $20 cheaper it would be a no brainer which they'd buy ?

Of course not, price is a limitation, and precludes many choices, but as with most products, it narrows the field some but its a minor variable.

If you had $30k to spend on a new car would you equally consider a full size pickup truck a 4 door sedan and a 2 seat sports car ??

All cost the same, but would someone wanting a huge truck find equal use out of a 2 seat sports car ?

Would someone wanting a compact car for good milage really be happy with a 14mpg full size Ford pickup ?

Of course not, just as someone who's reason for looking a compact camera ins't going to find a large DSLR a good choice for them even if it does cost the same.

If I want a pocket camera, I want a pocket camera. Doesn't matter if the big DSLR is cheaper, takes better photos etc. I want something small

caissam wrote:

Its a cam which is sold for the same price of a dslr 1000D, Nikon D3100, Sony NEX 5 or GF2 , PL1 or PEN p2.
So it is their competition and could be compared if U want decide between them.

OP millsart Senior Member • Posts: 2,771
I suppose small sensor compact would be more correct, you are right

I use the term p&s, not in its operation, though it certainly will largely be used for more casual quick shooting overall I'd say, though thats neither here nor there.

You are right the correct term is probably small sensor compact, though I think largely when one says p&s most know the type of camera, and more so, the type of performance to expect.

Even if a FF dslr has a green box mode, full auto mode or whatever the given brand calls it, most wouldn't call it a p&s, and certainly not refer to its output as looking like a p&s

Rather in my mind, a P&S look is deep DoF, limited DR, noiser etc than what we see from larger sensors.

In some ways it could be said "inferior" and if we are talking about trying to make fine art large landscape prints, no, it wouldn't be an ideal tool, but its also not the size/cost etc of a larger camera.

Its a trade off, as are most things in photography, or even life

Back to the point though, the X10, be it a p&s or small sensor compact, is what it is.

Its a stylish, funcuntional, perhaps slight step up from a LX5, G12 etc and thats it.

Reason enough to buy one in my book, and I did so already, but just as no one is taking their G12 and comparing it to their 7D, people shouldn't expect more from the X10 either.

Just kinda crazy and silly to take a "small sensor compact" and pixel peep over resolution, noise etc.

If you care about those things to that extend, go for a NEX5n etc. Tons of great choices if IQ is that important.

If you want a small fun camera for just $599 that will take perfectly good photos for the web, Facebook, to carry in your jacket on trips etc, I think its the best choice going
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HeavyDuty Senior Member • Posts: 1,831
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

What does it matter when even a lowly "point and shoot" can produce results technically superior in almost every way to what was state of the art for 35mm film only a few short years ago? I'm going to be using my new X10 like I use my Leica RF gear - and it'll likely blow the pants off BW400CN, my usual film. I'll probably have to add grain in post to get some character back!
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Peter Nelson Veteran Member • Posts: 6,890
Older Leica D-Lux 2, 8mp camera

The IQ at ISO 80 comming out of my 5 year old 8mp Leica D-Lux 2 is very good. Good enough for 13" x 19" Landscapes. The colors are very good! Eight Million Mega-Pixels is a lot of detail so this camera is usefull in different styles of photography.

However the shot to shot speed is slow compared to these newer generation p&s cameras. So my Leica D-Lux 2 is acceptable but slow. This new X10 is a lot faster and with better IQ I would say. So what's not to like?

Well it is a lot bigger, and that is significant as far as pocketability. If I get the X10 I am thinking it could fit in my pants pocket as does my Canon G10. The D-Lux 2 fit's in ANY pocket in all my clothes. But I still think the X10 can be carried everyday with no problems in the pants pocket, or jacket pocket.

My opinion on pixel-peepers is this X10 was not designed to stand up against the very best digital camera that money can afford. So do not compare them on that level. It is however without question good enough in IQ for excellent casual photography. That's something I think we can all appreciate and be thankfull about. -Peter
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iforum Forum Member • Posts: 95
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

The pixel peeping technorats need to compare sensors and possible/probable results as it is what keeps their nests alive.

glutamodo Forum Member • Posts: 96
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

While I never became a great photgrapher, I do like having cameras and taking photos. Back in spring of 2005, when I decided to get into digital cameras, I wanted a quality point and shoot. And after a lot of research I chose the Fuji E550, which I still find to be a good camera. I find the X10 to be similar in a few ways, 4x zoom, mechanical viewfinder, PSAM/full manual control, etc. If my E550 died, and if I wanted another P+S to replace it, I'd consider the X10 as something of an "equivalent" with massive upgrades. But with the price tag and the features... no I don't consider it "just" a P+S by any means. I also wouldn't consider it a replacement for my S100FS either. It's a little of both I guess... and I certainly don't consider it a DSLR! More like a P+S on steroids.

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Humboldt Jim Senior Member • Posts: 1,071
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ?? Math?

You may define categories any way that you think proves your point. However, you are wrong with regard to relative sensor sizes. Any way you compare 2/3 to 1.1/7, 2/3 is not "only about 10% larger."

A 2/3 sensor compared to a 1/1.7 has 34% more area and a 15.7% longer diagonal. Each of these measurements apply to different photographic attributes.

Add a lens that is 2 to 3x faster than many typical P & S compacts and you have low light capability that goes well beyond even your trivialized differences in sensor size.

HJ

Midwest Forum Pro • Posts: 18,309
Re: Do some people not realize the X10 is a point and shoot ??

caissam wrote:

Its a cam which is sold for the same price of a dslr 1000D, Nikon D3100, Sony NEX 5 or GF2 , PL1 or PEN p2. So it is their competition and could be compared if U want decide between them.

Suppose a trip to Antarctica costs $5000, and a trip to Paris and Rome costs $5000. Are the trips equally worthy of your consideration because they cost the same? Or maybe, just maybe, is the primary factor what they ARE, and not what they COST?

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