No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

Started Oct 10, 2011 | Discussions
aman74 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,002
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

SQLGuy wrote:

If the only point of turning it off on a tripod was that it was not needed anyhow, then it wouldn't cause problems (except maybe overheating or shortening battery life) to leave it on.

You misread me.

The other poster said it causes image quality issues.

I was questions this and saying that the only time I know of that it indeed does cause problems is on a tripod. I never said the only point in turning it off was because it's not needed.

Dennis Forum Pro • Posts: 20,068
Re: Stupid? No. Worse.....

idlecynic wrote:

There's no sugar-coating it, Sony's non-inclusion of SSS/IBIS in NEX is an indisputable fail from a stills shooter's point of view... It's been one of Alpha System's strongest selling points and to have it omitted is a real head-scratcher.

And yet, the vast majority of still shooters do NOT shoot cameras with IBIS. It may be an indisputable failure from some still shooters POV.

  • Dennis

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This is not a real name Contributing Member • Posts: 741
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

The way I see it is that Sony sacrificed IBIS to reduce the size of the body (at the expense of making the lenses larger) knowing that the size comparison is normally done between bodies and not lenses.

Carlgo Contributing Member • Posts: 532
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

The cynical view is that people would not buy Sony lenses.

But, probably not a factor because 90% of owners would never mess around with adapters and old lenses in any case.

People here discuss the holes in the middle of the emount line-up, but there are also no stabilized long lenses and that is an interesting and important part of photography.

I have tried to use an old Nikon 300mm on an unstabilized D40 and it isn't easy unless you are a tripod person.

pixelmess Forum Member • Posts: 66
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

I doubt that's the main reason. If Olympus can cram IS on their E-PM1, Sony can certainly do the same.

I think Sony omitted the feature to keep the cost down while offering a reasonable price for the consumer.

As for the e-mount lens cost (w/ IBIS)... well, that's where Sony gets you to spend more. That's the trade off.

That's business.

SteveGJ Senior Member • Posts: 1,422
Re: Is this the real reason for no IBIS??? source...

The degree of sensor movement is nothing to do with the register - it's simply down to the amount of movement and the focal length. If you have a 50mm lens on an A77 and the same on an NEX the sensor would have to move exactly the same distance for the same level of camera rotation. Note that with a 500mm lens the sensor would have to move 10 times the distance for the same camera rotation. However, we tend to use shorter exposures with longer lenses so the effects roughly cancel out.

It's certainly true the image circle has to be slightly larger than the sensor diagonal. I did some measurements once, and I found the degree of movement required for a 200mm lens was a maximum of about 1mm in any one direction (just photograph a very small specular highlight with a longish-exposure many times and examine the pixel-level detail to see how much the trail has "wandered").

It's a bit different if you want a stabilised viewfinder image though - in that case, you aren't compensating for hand shake over a period of tenths or hundredths of a second, but seconds. Then you have to deal with much larger accumulated movements and the greater capability of OS lenses comes to the fore.

Nell27
Nell27 Senior Member • Posts: 2,708
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

I think one of the problems many people have with how these cameras are designed is that most people on this forum seem to be compact camera upgraders.

There's nothing wrong with that but when you go from a fixed lens camera to an interchangable lens camera several design features will be different.

To my knowledge (limited) only Pentax and Olympus have in body image stabilization on their cameras.

Nikon, Canon, Sigma, Panasonic and Sony all use the lens system.

Not 100% sure of the reason but over the years I've been told that the lens system is a little more reliable than the in-camera system.

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal.

pabloman Regular Member • Posts: 255
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

NO IFs and BUTs !

IBIS is a great feature. Shooting pictures gives you much better outcomes, no matter the ISO. Besides that. High ISO good or bad, stabilized ISO 100 or 200 is always better to be used than ISO 800 or 1600. So don't argue on this.

In lowlight, the stuff, I can shoot with my EP-1 on low ISO, is much better than that "good high ISO" of the NEX, the fanboys here proll so much about.

I love my NEX 3 and 5N very much. They are great for the bright part of the day. However, they still can't match the antique, high noise output of my EP-1 when I use it with IBIS and the 20/1.7 lens...

So I have only the option to use the NEX for when there is enough light and the m4/3 for lowlight. Kind of dumb, when I don't want to lug two cameras around, don't you think?

As the argument of "good high ISO" in combination with fast lenses ie. 1.2 and the like, is still stupid, because you would get also much better output with the same lenses on the NEX if you would have IBIS!!!

And finally.

The NEX cameras are targeted primarily towards PHOTO SHOOTERS ! ! ! NOT VIDEO shooters. So I don't care about that stupid advantage of OSS used when shooting video. I want to make good photos with all lenses. IBIS is the best way to achieve it. OSS makes the lenses bigger (WHICH NOBODY WANTS) and also more expensive.

I LOVE IBIS. And I find it very stupid of SONY not implementing it into the NEX.

Howgh.

pabloman Regular Member • Posts: 255
Re: Stupid? No. Worse.....

Yet, the vast majority of stills shooters are just typical herd-type ignorants, who go with the crowd without using their brain. They just don't care about paying more money for the larger stabilized lenses.

Because its just the way it is... 85-90% of people do not create their own opinion, they just take that from the majority.

Thats why anybody shoots Canikon. They just don't think.

Thank god for Pentax Olympus and SONY for putting IBIS into their cameras!

Just a big pity and fail, that they omitted it on the NEX !

Dennis Forum Pro • Posts: 20,068
Re: Stupid? No. Worse.....

pabloman wrote:

Yet, the vast majority of stills shooters are just typical herd-type ignorants, who go with the crowd without using their brain. They just don't care about paying more money for the larger stabilized lenses.

Nikon 16-85 for $650 versus CZ 16-80 for $850 ...

Nikon 70-200 II for $2180 versus Sony 70-200 for $2000 and the Nikon is sharper, faster, with amazing VR.

It's insulting to suggest that the vast majority of photographers are stupid just because they haven't chosen the rebel path. Until recently, Sony had few affordable primes that made IBIS beneficial (versus ILIS which is commonly available in the competitions lineups). Until the SLT came along, you didn't get a stabilized VF image with IBIS. Now that those benefits are here, you have IBIS which causes sensor heating resulting in video shutdowns, so new cameras offer electronic IS, and some Alpha users are choosing Sigma OS lenses for video recording.

I've been using Maxxum for 20 years; I appreciate IBIS, but I can't say I would choose Sony if buying from scratch today.

Thank god for Pentax Olympus and SONY for putting IBIS into their cameras!

And yet Sony opted against IBIS for NEX. They have IBIS for Alpha because KM had IBIS for Maxxum and they had IBIS for Maxxum because they went years without any IS and saw an opportunity with digital. Ditto Pentax.

Just a big pity and fail, that they omitted it on the NEX !

It may be disappointing to some - I'd be happy if it had IBIS. But that doesn't make it a failure.

  • Dennis

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markpsf Senior Member • Posts: 2,732
From Someone with a Slight Hand Tremor

I prefer image stabilization.
It helps me with my slight hand tremor.

I'm still buying the NEX-7.

As long as the lens is fast and the lens in the wide angle territory, I find that I don't need it.

I think it is also overrated as a correction for slight hand movement.

I've been using a Panasonic GH2 and with small fast lenses it is no problem.

Other lenses have built in IS and are very very effective, more so than in camera stabilization I've had in other cameras.

With the kit lens having stabilization and the 55-210 as well, I see no problem.

I also plan to use the very fast 25mm and given the speed of that lens, also expect no problem.

Last point. Every forum seems to get into personal or almost personal emotional attacking and defending. I don't get it. I'm sure there are good reasons to disagree with my choice and I will respect that.

I also know that some people use these forums very unprofessionally.

As a newcomer to this forum...I can still hope the tone will be better. I do have some degree of naive optimism!

Mark

odobo Contributing Member • Posts: 692
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

stupid? hardly.

1 of the main reason why 5N gets so much attention is the high iso performance. Adding IBIS = more heat, more noise and eliminate the advantage you get from the sensor that the competitor couldnt match.

when there is another solution for the same problem (OSS), why would any engineer decide to erase the advantage (ISO performance) and implement something that can be achieve by something equal or better (OSS)?

Its probably more stupid to cry for something without even thinking if it is truly beneficial or not.

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Nell27
Nell27 Senior Member • Posts: 2,708
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

Nell27 wrote:

I think one of the problems many people have with how these cameras are designed is that most people on this forum seem to be compact camera upgraders.

There's nothing wrong with that but when you go from a fixed lens camera to an interchangable lens camera several design features will be different.

To my knowledge (limited) only Pentax and Olympus have in body image stabilization on their cameras.

Nikon, Canon, Sigma, Panasonic and Sony all use the lens system.

Not 100% sure of the reason but over the years I've been told that the lens system is a little more reliable than the in-camera system.

Anyway, I don't think it's a big deal.

Looks like I was wrong here because others have indicated Sony DSLRs also use in-camera image stabilization.

Never owned a Sony until I bought the 5n. Always had Canon SLR/DSLRs and to be honest, I only owned one image stabilized lens.

gfrensen Veteran Member • Posts: 3,627
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex But In lens stabilization!

I've thought a long time if I would react on thios poast. I don't like the tone of the OP andI surtanly don't like the tone of some answers to that post.
I will give my two cents to this thread:

I own both an A700 with IBIS and a Nex5 without IBIS.
Both stabilisation systems have their advantages and disadvantages.:

IBIS is great, it gives stabilisation with ALL A-mount lenses, that is great! It is one of the reasons I bought My Minolta 7D and later the A700!

But IBIS is not always as great as it sounds. It has to be put off when on a tripod, It is consumming extra battery power (not important when you can shoot 1000 pictures on one nbattery load, but when it comes down to 300-400 it might be a problem. The IBIS system can go wrong andbreak downs (there ar post to proof it). IBIS need to know the FL of your lens or it will be not effective, but can easely ruin your shots. So it only works on adapted lenses when you can tell your camera at what FL you are shooting, a problem with adapted zoom lenses....

ILS systems have some strong points over IBIS: like the the IS can be tailor made to the FL of the lens, it don't use as much battery power, it will not heat up the sensor during video, it can have the IS specialy made for video (like on the 18-200mm zoom lens)

Would I like to have IBIS on the Nex? YES!

Is it wrong from Sony to switch to ILS? NO (look at the many threads at the Minolta and Sony DSLR forum when people have to defend the IBIS system. The only reason Minolta, Sony, Pentax and Olympus went IBIS was for the lack of ILS lenses... Accespting the downsites of the system and advertising the upsites of it.

When you think you NEED IBIS then you have to go for a different camera and start shooting, If you want to go with the Nex, accept the downsides of the ILS system and go shooting.
I don't care with what camera: GO SHOOTING!

aman74 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,002
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

pabloman wrote:

NO IFs and BUTs !

IBIS is a great feature. Shooting pictures gives you much better outcomes

Actually, there's no effect at high shutter speeds.

OP Woland65 Regular Member • Posts: 438
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex But In lens stabilization!

Hm, just realized that the zeiss 24mm does not have IS. Had missed that completely. I will probably get an aplha. Even with fast lenses I find that shutter speeds are often long enough indoors to blur the pictures (with my not-so-stable hands).

I am borrowing a 5D mkII for two weeks to make up my mind if I really need IBIS and have to go for an aplha instead of the nex 7. Leaning towards alpha now. In that case I am keeping my nex 5 with kit lens as a bring along camera.

aman74 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,002
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex But In lens stabilization!

gfrensen wrote:

But IBIS is not always as great as it sounds. It has to be put off when on a tripod,

It is consumming extra battery power (not important when you can shoot 1000 pictures on one nbattery load, but when it comes down to 300-400 it might be a problem. The IBIS system can go wrong andbreak downs (there ar post to proof it). IBIS need to know the FL of your lens or it will be not effective, but can easely ruin your shots. So it only works on adapted lenses when you can tell your camera at what FL you are shooting, a problem with adapted zoom lenses....

OS also has to be turned off when on a tripod.

OS also uses battery power.

OS can break.

IBIS will know the focal length when lens is attached or you type it in if it's a manual lens. Even if it didn't how is that a knock against it since having it for a lens that would normally have nothing only puts you ahead. That adapted zoom lens would have nothing, so something is better than nothing no?

So you just rattled off a bunch of points that don't really say anything at all. I think I need a break from this place...not even thought before people post.

And no, I'm not a proponent of one over the other. I just prefer discussing the differences factually and not making things up to support some irrational belief.

People tell themselves things to support a belief instead of believing things based on evidence. There's a fancy word for it that I can't recall...but man, this whole forum should be named after it.

tomtom50 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,244
NEX was conceived as P&S Upgrade

The controls and marketing for the original NEX clearly aimed at P&S upgraders. The extensive firmware Sony later released shows Sony re-calibrated based on market response. It turned out that enthusiasts also wanted mirrorless, and they were choosing NEX for IQ even though the Panasonic and Olympus offerings had more lenses and controls better to enthusiast taste.

Ironically both Sony and m43 adjusted; new Nexes are more pro-ish and newer low-end m43 cameras are dumbed down.

This means Sony made their initial in-body vs. optical IS decision before they realized significant numbers would use adapters to mount SLR primes and before they realized that prime lenses would be important in the market. Who knows if they would have made the same decision had they known how events would unfold?

Another point; in-body IS is a huge advantage for Alpha, but A mount has tons of legacy and current lenses that can use it, and when it was introduced KM had and needed a killer sales point. NEX has no legacy base. Sony has less of a sales edge offering it for NEX.

Yes, Sony could include it in a future NEX. Does that seem like something they would actually do? Me neither. The only path I see is if the LA-EA2 is a big seller and high-end people with a lot of Alpha lenses embrace high-end NEXes. Since these are Sony lenses Sony would have an incentive to please these customers.

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Sosua
Sosua Senior Member • Posts: 2,342
Depends if you want / need it

I mean I only find it handy very occasionally so don't care too much.

I'm either shooting at proper shutter speeds with good technique or in low light off a tripod. IBIS will never offer what a tripod does and appears to limit maximum quality if you just leave it on all the time.

It is much more desirable for telephoto but most teles have OSS which is better.

I'd be fine if it was thrown in but it's nothing like a deal breaker.

Some may disagree but only Olympus offers this in mirrorless currently. To them it's the most important feature in the world of course but I would suggest that is more to do with that being it's only point of difference.
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SQLGuy
SQLGuy Forum Pro • Posts: 10,395
Re: No in-body stabilization in Nex. Stupid!(?)

Don't ever tell me not to argue.

If I don't want motion blur (from a moving subject), and my 1600 ISO is good, a fast shutter speed and a high ISO is going to be better than a slow shutter speed and a low ISO.

pabloman wrote:

IBIS is a great feature. Shooting pictures gives you much better outcomes, no matter the ISO. Besides that. High ISO good or bad, stabilized ISO 100 or 200 is always better to be used than ISO 800 or 1600. So don't argue on this.

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