Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

Started Oct 5, 2011 | Discussions
bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,574
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

sparkling elk wrote:

the AA filter and reduced shadow noise @ higher resolution i can buy. but does it mean that 3x mp on FF will become a necessary standard?

i have seen the images from my (sold) 21mp-5D2 and from my brother's 12mp-D3s. shadow noise of the nikon is better. shadow noise on my 1D4 files is also better.

simply the fact that the pixel pitch of the D3s is much bigger than on the D3x sensor makes the 12mp D3s a much better low light camera. thats what i want...

It is not ' the fact that the pixel pitch of the D3s is much bigger than on the D3x sensor' that 'makes the 12mp D3s a much better low light camera'. It is the fact that the D3s has a much higher quantum efficiency.

thank you for your comment. it makes me understand that there is more than just pixel size. lets see if there will be futur cameras with a special spec for low light and how much resolution they will have.

the D3s already has such a spec.
who would like such a thing from canon (lets say with 16 or 20mp) ?

If this D800 sensor has D7000 pixels it will be very nearly as good as the D3s in low light, with 36MP. I expect the D4 to have D3s levels of low light performance or better and 24MP. With the pixel they have designed for the J1 and V1 Nikon could make a camera with D3s levels of low light performance and 72MP.

Canon have to up their game to match even the D7000 pixel, let alone the D3s and J1 pixels.

-- hide signature --

Bob

Scott Larson Veteran Member • Posts: 5,998
Re: Careful, Part II Well

Skip M wrote:

I wonder how many D3 sales Nikon loses to their own cameras? They end up competing with themselves.

I've been wondering about that. Lately I've seen more D700's with battery grips at games than D3's. In fact they're getting kind of rare.

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,574
Re: Careful, Part II Well

Scott Larson wrote:

Skip M wrote:

I wonder how many D3 sales Nikon loses to their own cameras? They end up competing with themselves.

I've been wondering about that. Lately I've seen more D700's with battery grips at games than D3's. In fact they're getting kind of rare.

I think Nikon's FX product lineup is a recovery strategy based on what they could do with the resources they had, and I think it's worked rather well, in the end. Ideally, they should have had more differentiation between the D3 and D700, but that would have meant developing two camera platforms at the same time. Instead, they developed just one and permed it three ways - D3, D700 and D3x. Freed from having to develop two sensors (by using the existing Sony one in the D3X) their sensor group had the resources to develop the huge increase in quantum efficiency that they put in the D3s sensor, which in turn was enough to turn a warmed over D3 into a 1DIV spoiler. Yes, they have cannibalised their own cameras, but I think you'll find that nonetheless the D3 outsold the 1DIII, the D3s outsold the 1DIV and the D3X outsold the 1DsIII. I'd guess that the 5DII rather heavily outsold the D700, and returned Canon more margin per unit, and I'd think that is what Nikon is trying to redress now. The remarkable technology in the J1 and V1 rather suggests that Canon will have to be batting above their average to even come close to the D4, too.

Edit: Regarding 'Lately I've seen more D700's with battery grips at games than D3's', or course, that isn't all bad for Nikon either. A D700 with battery grip isn't too far off a D3 in cash returned to Nikon, and each one of those you see isn't a 1D.
--
Bob

OP Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 39,908
A few favorites:
6

joger wrote:

I want to get better photos than I'm currently getting and to be able to expand the range of circumstances where I can capture a photo.

so your equipment is taking the pictures and not you

Absolutely.

just a quick one

Sure -- I'm all for quickies.

you can either climb a mountain (which I don't do because I am deeply unfit) or you can drive with your car to the top and have a cappuccino instead

doe it make a difference - of course!! One time you do it with a good pair of shoes and one time you do it with a good set of tires

I agree with the lenses - for the rest I am lost - please post some of your best images and give me an idea which quality level we are talking about?

Tough to choose, but here are a few favorites:

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/1.2, 1/10, ISO 3200 (minor crop)

Canon 5D + 100 / 2 + CPL @ f/5.6, 1/125, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 15 / 2.8 FE @ f/8, 1/2000, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 24 / 1.4L @ f/2.8, 1/15, ISO 400

Canon 5D + 24 / 1.4L + CPL @ f/8, 1/60, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 200 / 2.8L + CPL @ f/2.8, 1/2000, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 15 / 2.8 FE @ f / 16, 1/8, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 24 / 1.4L @ f/5.6, 1/8, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 24 / 1.4L @ f / 8, 1/800, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 24 / 1.4L @ f / 1.4, 1/80, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/8, 1/1600, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/1.2, 1/160, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/1.2, 1/60, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/1.2, 1/250, ISO 1600

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/8, 1/250, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/1.2, 1/60, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/2.8, 1/125, ISO 800

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/1.2, 1/200, ISO 1600

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f / 1.2, 1/8000, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L + 580EX II @ f / 1.2, 1/200, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f / 2, 1/800, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f / 1.2, 1/125, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f / 1.2, 1/60, ISO 800

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f / 1.2, 1/125, ISO 400

Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/2.8, 1/60, ISO 400

Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/4, 1/500, ISO 100

Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/2.8, 1/200, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 100 / 2 @ f / 2, 1/250, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 100mm / 2 @ f / 2, 1/250, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 100 / 2 @ f / 2, 1/250, ISO 100

Canon 5D + Sigma 150 / 2.8 macro & 580EXII @ f / 4, 1/200, ISO 100

Canon 5D + Sigma 150 / 2.8 macro @ f/5.6, 1/8000, ISO 100

Canon 5D + Sigma 150 / 2.8 macro @ f / 2.8, 1/2000, ISO 100

Canon 5D + Sigma 150mm / 2.8 macro @ f / 5.6, 1/320, ISO 100

Canon 5D + Sigma 150mm / 2.8 Macro @ f / 5.6, 1/125, ISO 400

Canon 5D + 200 / 2.8L @ f/2.8, 1/640, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 200mm / 2.8L @ f / 5.6, 1/800, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.4 @ f / 1.4, 1/125, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.4 @ f / 1.4, 1/6400, ISO 50 (moderate crop)

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.4 @ f / 1.4, 1/20, ISO 400

Canon 5D + 50mm / 1.4 @ f / 1.4, 1/25, ISO 3200

OP Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 39,908
Re: Doesn't that out-resolve many lenses?

Dylthedog wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

The rumor is a 4FPS camera with a 36MP Sony Exmor FX sensor using the D7000 pixel design. I hope Canon will compete well with the 5D3, 'cause I can't afford to switch, I like my lenses, and that sensor is pretty much exactly what the doctor ordered (along with Nikon's famous AF).

That's quite a jump in MP - won't that stretch the glass in use whether it's the (rumoured) Nikon or a new Canon?

If it does it will be interesting to see where things go next, the MP will finally be over

More pixels will always resolve more detail, but the Law of Diminsihing returns will affect different lenses differently.

Getting right to the point, a FF version of the 7D sensor would be 46 MP. So, however well FF lenses fare on the 7D is how well they'd fare on a 46 MP FF sensor.

J A K Forum Pro • Posts: 15,833
Re: Well, I've lusted over Nikon's 14-24 but was never keen ...

mattr wrote:

J A K wrote:

about the idea of purchasing an adapter for a Canon body. If your source is correct then this might be the time to consider a Nikon body and then pick up the 14-24 for those occasional very wide angle landscapes.

Yes, this is a lens Canon seems to be unable to match. And don't forget that Nikon offers some updated normal primes while Canon refuses to do so. I would immediately order the Nikon AF-S 50/1.8 together with a full frame Nikon body.

One year ago I lost my 5D2 and all lenses. I decided to get a 60D with a few lenses and wait for the next full frame model before replacing the 5D2. If a 36 MP D800 materializes and Canon has no good answer, I will likely buy the Nikon. I could sell my Canon 24mm TS-E II to pay for the Nikon 14-24...

Honestly, I think when push comes to shove you will not let go of the 24mm TS-E II. I would "think" (though I always reserve the right to be wrong) the "go with the new Nikon" decision is (or should be) decoupled from that particular Canon T/S lens, YMMV.

I don't own the 24mm TS-E II but like Nikon's 14-24 my lust level has always been high. The issue is many of my shots require a zoom for best composition; the T/S lens can't zoom and I can't foot-zoom at the edge of a cliff or when backed into the side of a canyon wall.

Regards,

Joe Kurkjian

Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/jkurkjia

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SEARCHING FOR A BETTER SELF PORTRAIT

joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 4,150
Re: A few favorites:

Great Bustard wrote:

joger wrote:

I want to get better photos than I'm currently getting and to be able to expand the range of circumstances where I can capture a photo.

so your equipment is taking the pictures and not you

Absolutely.

just a quick one

Sure -- I'm all for quickies.

you can either climb a mountain (which I don't do because I am deeply unfit) or you can drive with your car to the top and have a cappuccino instead

doe it make a difference - of course!! One time you do it with a good pair of shoes and one time you do it with a good set of tires

I agree with the lenses - for the rest I am lost - please post some of your best images and give me an idea which quality level we are talking about?

Tough to choose, but here are a few favorites:

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/1.2, 1/10, ISO 3200 (minor crop)

Canon 5D + 100 / 2 + CPL @ f/5.6, 1/125, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 15 / 2.8 FE @ f/8, 1/2000, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 24 / 1.4L @ f/2.8, 1/15, ISO 400

Canon 5D + 200 / 2.8L + CPL @ f/2.8, 1/2000, ISO 100

Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/2.8, 1/60, ISO 400

Canon 5D + Sigma 150 / 2.8 macro & 580EXII @ f / 4, 1/200, ISO 100

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.4 @ f / 1.4, 1/20, ISO 400

nice lenses!!

(seems like buying equipment is really your passion)

btw - I like the image too

-- hide signature --

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

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orpheo Forum Member • Posts: 81
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

Hm, interesting.

Now I wonder:

  • Why would Nikon not put more of these more efficient pixels on the D3s' sensor two years ago - or lately the D7000's sensor - if pixel size doesn't matter, resolution is so utterly important and/or sells so well?

  • And only two years after the D3s it's supposedly possible to triple the pixel-count without losses?

I know, you didn't actually say that, but the way you argue, that seems to be the conclusion to me.

Propably you do have access to more information and/or know better how to interpret it, but all I can see so far is, that comparing raw-files of roughly the same generation of equally sized sensors, better low-light performance always goes along with bigger pixels.

Based on that, my conclusion is, a 36MP-FF-Sensor the likes of the one used in the D7000 wouldn't even come close to the low-light-performance of a D3s. So how much progress is possible in one year with basicly the same sensor type? My optimistic guess would be: 24MP max to keep the level of the D700.

mattr Veteran Member • Posts: 3,505
Re: Well, I've lusted over Nikon's 14-24 but was never keen ...

J A K wrote:

I don't own the 24mm TS-E II but like Nikon's 14-24 my lust level has always been high. The issue is many of my shots require a zoom for best composition; the T/S lens can't zoom and I can't foot-zoom at the edge of a cliff or when backed into the side of a canyon wall.

I used the 24TSE quite often as a substitute for a zoom, both on the 5D2 and now on the 60D. With a tripod it is easy to obtain a 17mm field of view by shifting (countershifting the camera) and stitching. No resampling is required (in contrast to normal panorama shots) and resolution is very high. Simply by cropping, all compositions between 17 and 24mm can be obtained with a resolution at least as high as the full sensor resolution. In this way the TSE can be used as a 17-24mm zoom. Obviously a real zoom like the Nikon 14-24 has big advantages (e.g. 14-17mm range, autofocus, no tripod required to go wider than 24mm), but of course it's not a tilt-shift...

RedFox88 Forum Pro • Posts: 27,309
Re: Doesn't that out-resolve many lenses?

Dylthedog wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

The rumor is a 4FPS camera with a 36MP Sony Exmor FX sensor using the D7000 pixel design. I hope Canon will compete well with the 5D3, 'cause I can't afford to switch, I like my lenses, and that sensor is pretty much exactly what the doctor ordered (along with Nikon's famous AF).

That's quite a jump in MP - won't that stretch the glass in use whether it's the (rumoured) Nikon or a new Canon?

About 2 or 3 years ago Canon produced a prototype 52 MP aps-h b+w image sensor and Summer 2010 they made a press release about a 120 MP aps-h sensor. 'nuff said.

OP Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 39,908
Re: A few favorites:

joger wrote:

I agree with the lenses - for the rest I am lost - please post some of your best images and give me an idea which quality level we are talking about?

Tough to choose, but here are a few favorites:

Canon 5D + 50 / 1.2L @ f/1.2, 1/10, ISO 3200 (minor crop)
Canon 5D + 100 / 2 + CPL @ f/5.6, 1/125, ISO 100
Canon 5D + 15 / 2.8 FE @ f/8, 1/2000, ISO 100
Canon 5D + 24 / 1.4L @ f/2.8, 1/15, ISO 400
Canon 5D + 200 / 2.8L + CPL @ f/2.8, 1/2000, ISO 100
Canon 5D + Sigma 70 / 2.8 macro @ f/2.8, 1/60, ISO 400
Canon 5D + Sigma 150 / 2.8 macro & 580EXII @ f / 4, 1/200, ISO 100
Canon 5D + 50 / 1.4 @ f / 1.4, 1/20, ISO 400

nice lenses!!

(seems like buying equipment is really your passion)

I currently own six lenses:

15 / 2.8 FE, 24 / 1.4L, 50 / 1.2L, 70 / 2.8 macro, 100 / 2, and 200 / 2.8L.

Of those, the only ones I purchased new were the 50 / 1.2L and 70 / 2.8 macro. So my entire collection is worth the same as a 24-70 / 2.8L + 70-200 / 2.8L IS II. Not too extravagant, methinks.

btw - I like the image too

Kind of you to say. I was thinking that someone might comment on the 50 / 1.2L pics not being any "better" than the 50 / 1.4 pics -- ergo, what do I want from a 5D3 that the 5Dc doesn't give me?

Well, the answer is that I get more keepers with the 50 / 1.2L than the 50 / 1.4, and that, on average, the pics from the 50 / 1.2L do have higher IQ (but I fully admit that the best from the 50 / 1.4 compare quite well with the best from the 50 / 1.2L).

Since the 50 / 1.2L is my most used lens (closely followed by the 24 / 1.4L), it made sense to me to have the best 50mm prime I could afford. Likewise, it makes sense to have the best body I can afford to make the most out of my lenses.

The 5D2 is most certainly better than my 5Dc, but, for some reason, it just didn't seem "enough" better to get me to part with my money to get it. However, if the 5D3 were as good as the rumored D800, then, for sure, it would be a "worthwhile" upgrade for me.

So worthwhile, in fact, that, at that point, I really don't think I have the skills to make use of camera that was even better still in terms of IQ -- there's still a lot I would like in terms of operation (ISOless UI with new AE modes to support it, sensor IS, auto-bracketing and merging with a single press of the shutter release, etc., etc., etc.).

canes Regular Member • Posts: 389
Re: A few favorites:

Could you possibly post 50 more pictures? I didnt get get quite annoyed enough scrolling through all those...

joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 4,150
Re: A few favorites:

Great Bustard wrote:

there's still a lot I would like in terms of operation (ISOless UI with new AE modes to support it, sensor IS, auto-bracketing and merging with a single press of the shutter release, etc., etc., etc.).

we talked about image quality (and in my case printability) and not about operation and the position of this or that button - or did we?

Of course many buttons and functions could get an overhauling for better ergonomic usability and some companies show that exactly these aspects can be the USP. BUT in terms of cameras I am used to get it in some way (switched from Nikon to Canon three years ago) and had the fear that I will be lost in searching for the right handling being used to the other brand - in fact I am doing the same things but only better compare to Nikon

Since the aperture ring was skipped by Nikon I really see no handling advantage at Nikon just a different way of handling with no advantage for one brand over the other - having said that - I'd like to get more the feeling of my large format equipment and less AF (or none) and more manual operation

For images like these:

all done from tripod with MLU and remote firing plus TS-E 17 fully shift and stitched with 5D II resulting in some 35 MPixel final size
--
isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

 joger's gear list:joger's gear list
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Skip M Veteran Member • Posts: 7,174
Re: Careful, Part II Well

bobn2 wrote:

Edit: Regarding 'Lately I've seen more D700's with battery grips at games than D3's', or course, that isn't all bad for Nikon either. A D700 with battery grip isn't too far off a D3 in cash returned to Nikon, and each one of those you see isn't a 1D.
--
Bob

I think, there, you've hit the nail on the proverbial head. Using a shotgunnish approach, while possibly causing some internal competition, also has the desirable effect of taking sales away from Canon, by overwhelming the specs and/or price on everything Canon builds. Kind of like, "So what if we sold XXXX D700s instead of D3s, at least there's that many 1D/1Ds/5Ds that didn't sell!"
--
Skip M
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willyhill Regular Member • Posts: 277
iPhone5=iPhone4S so D800=D700S

that's neat

sparkling elk
sparkling elk Contributing Member • Posts: 829
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

there you talk about the quality of pixels. i agree that there is an improvement over the last years. however, IQ is more subtile than just high iso performance. finally, it should be all together (colors, contrasts, sharpness and DR).

my only experience with cameras concerning larger pixels and smaller pixels is the change between the 30D to 50D (8mp to 15mp) and 1D3 to 1D4 (10mp to 16mp). for both cases i confirm even better high iso (well, the 50D IQ did not satisfy me, while the 30D was more "lovely", to be unclear).

5D2 was something different. i'd tax it's IQ (5D pixels are larger) below the 1D4, also because of the way how it exposes in certain light situations.

to make it short: (supposed to talk about same sensor technology and not needing an extremely high resolution application-wise)

isn't there really no advantage of larger pixels over smaller ones concerning realisation of best IQ from lowest to highest iso ?
what the hell i should do with rawfiles of 40MP and and original jpegs of 25MP ?
or rawfiles > 50MP ?
honestely, i dont see this need now.

maybe in 5 years, when i will be able to work on a XXLcore computer, high capacity SSD disks and home-NAS, i could deal with this resolution. (not to forget superfast 64GB CF and SD cards ... and: maybe you'll need the latest EF L-lens versions to keep pace with extreme resolutions... ).

canon's APSH became as good as FF some years ago. APSC might get as good soon (refering to D7000 discussion). will i need high end FF (replacing MF at a similar performance) ?

i would be happy with a 2x mp sensor and best possible DR, let it be 1.2, 1.3 or FF, but with best ergonomics bodywise and some innovations mentioned here (like stabilised sensor).

bobn2 wrote:

sparkling elk wrote:

simply the fact that the pixel pitch of the D3s is much bigger than on the D3x sensor makes the 12mp D3s a much better low light camera. thats what i want...

It is not ' the fact that the pixel pitch of the D3s is much bigger than on the D3x sensor' that 'makes the 12mp D3s a much better low light camera'. It is the fact that the D3s has a much higher quantum efficiency.

the D3s already has such a spec.
who would like such a thing from canon (lets say with 16 or 20mp) ?

If this D800 sensor has D7000 pixels it will be very nearly as good as the D3s in low light, with 36MP. I expect the D4 to have D3s levels of low light performance or better and 24MP. With the pixel they have designed for the J1 and V1 Nikon could make a camera with D3s levels of low light performance and 72MP.

Canon have to up their game to match even the D7000 pixel, let alone the D3s and J1 pixels.

-- hide signature --

Bob

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Senior Member • Posts: 2,795
re: 6fps only in DX mode

May need claficiation from the real specs when and if this camera comes out....

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Senior Member • Posts: 2,795
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

Just interested in which Nikon lenses are behind the Canon ?.

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Senior Member • Posts: 2,795
Re: Careful, Part II Well

Only couple more of F/4's for Nikon to finally update / introduce which they may do soon

  • Nikon 300 AFS -> add in VR

  • Nikon 70-200 F/4 AFS VR - equivalent to Canon's excellent model.

Hope they can bang out :-
400 F5.6 AFS VR

and somehow update this slow dog....

  • 80-400 AF VR

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 53,574
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

sparkling elk wrote:

there you talk about the quality of pixels. i agree that there is an improvement over the last years. however, IQ is more subtile than just high iso performance. finally, it should be all together (colors, contrasts, sharpness and DR).

my only experience with cameras concerning larger pixels and smaller pixels is the change between the 30D to 50D (8mp to 15mp) and 1D3 to 1D4 (10mp to 16mp). for both cases i confirm even better high iso (well, the 50D IQ did not satisfy me, while the 30D was more "lovely", to be unclear).

5D2 was something different. i'd tax it's IQ (5D pixels are larger) below the 1D4, also because of the way how it exposes in certain light situations.

to make it short: (supposed to talk about same sensor technology and not needing an extremely high resolution application-wise)

isn't there really no advantage of larger pixels over smaller ones concerning realisation of best IQ from lowest to highest iso ?

Not really. Of course, you need to talk not only about pixel size and number of pixels, or equivalently sensor size and number of pixels. Generally, for the same size sensor the more pixels the better, until you get to really tiny pixel dimensions.

what the hell i should do with rawfiles of 40MP and and original jpegs of 25MP ?
or rawfiles > 50MP ?
honestely, i dont see this need now.

maybe in 5 years, when i will be able to work on a XXLcore computer, high capacity SSD disks and home-NAS, i could deal with this resolution. (not to forget superfast 64GB CF and SD cards ... and: maybe you'll need the latest EF L-lens versions to keep pace with extreme resolutions... ).

These cameras can do in-camera raw processing, that is you can get the camera to do your raw conversion according to your requirements and then dump it out to your computer, if your computer isn't fast enough.

canon's APSH became as good as FF some years ago. APSC might get as good soon (refering to D7000 discussion). will i need high end FF (replacing MF at a similar performance) ?

i would be happy with a 2x mp sensor and best possible DR, let it be 1.2, 1.3 or FF, but with best ergonomics bodywise and some innovations mentioned here (like stabilised sensor).

The best possible DR comes from having many small pixels, so by and large if you want a sensor with 2xMP and more DR, the easiest way to get it is give it 3x or 4x the number of pixels. Each 4x pixel size increase will give you a stop more sensor DR, if everything else is equal. Usually it is the ADC method that is the limit on DR.
--
Bob

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