Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

Started Oct 5, 2011 | Discussions
Keith Reeder Veteran Member • Posts: 3,725
Re: Ummm...

Vivid1 wrote:

I was rather hoping for marked improvements on the sensor design - something similar to what Sony/Nikon did with the d7000.

" Marked " improvements?

There's no evidence at all of that.

jpr2 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,554
re: which C. body has 17 points AF? (n/t)

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sparkling elk
sparkling elk Contributing Member • Posts: 829
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

tests between D3s and D3x show a better lowlight performance. means: better high iso IQ. i suspected that the pixel size is playing a major role, but with your remark about i am not sure that this is all. will check that.

i agree, 16mp is just a number and more resolution generally is better, but:

i dont need 3x mp at all and i cannot believe that you'll see better IQ on a 30mp sensor than on a 20mp sensor (technically same generation).

lets not forget the fact that the smaller the pixels, the more shake is amplified. true?

my 16mp vote was stupid. but i'd prefer a 20-24mp FF sensor with 2 crop modes (1.2 and 1.6).

bobn2 wrote:

sparkling elk wrote:

i'd prefer the simple advantage of larger pixels. example: the difference between D3s (12mp) and D3x (24mp).

The difference in pixel size between the D3s and D3X has nothing to do with the low light performance. that is brought about mainly by the higher quantum efficiency, which Nikon has also achieved with the small pixels of the 1 system sensor.

i'd prefer a D4s (16mp) with (at least) 1 stop better lowlight performance over a D4x (35mp).

If the 35MP camera is based on the 16MP DX Sony sensor, you will not have a stop better lowlight, it's quantum efficiency is already close to 50% and its read noise very low.

but i have to admit, that a good resolution is also something that manifests in IQ. the question is what is enough. to me, a 5D3 with improved 21mp would be interesting, but perfect with 16mp.

16 is just a number, no real reason why it should be better that 21 or 24. generally, more is better.
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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,881
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

sparkling elk wrote:

tests between D3s and D3x show a better lowlight performance. means: better high iso IQ. i suspected that the pixel size is playing a major role, but with your remark about i am not sure that this is all. will check that.

Unless Nikon and Sony give you access to their design information for the two sensors, or you spend a few thousand dollars on the chipworks reports, you're not going to find out for certain one way or the other. All you can do is look at the theory and the trends. Neither shows a reduction in low light performance as you go to smaller pixels.

i agree, 16mp is just a number and more resolution generally is better, but:

i dont need 3x mp at all and i cannot believe that you'll see better IQ on a 30mp sensor than on a 20mp sensor (technically same generation).

Well you will, in particular more detail, due mainly to the higher cut AA filter and also less shadow noise, due to the tendency of smaller pixels to have lower read noise.

lets not forget the fact that the smaller the pixels, the more shake is amplified. true?

Not true, amplification of shake depends on the magnification that you use to view the image, not the number or size of pixels.

my 16mp vote was stupid. but i'd prefer a 20-24mp FF sensor with 2 crop modes (1.2 and 1.6).

Crop modes are of limited worth also - if you have a good TC it's almost always a better bet than using a crop mode - the resolution enhancement from the extra pixels is generally more than any loss due to the TC.
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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,881
Re: Ummm...

Keith Reeder wrote:

Vivid1 wrote:

I was rather hoping for marked improvements on the sensor design - something similar to what Sony/Nikon did with the d7000.

" Marked " improvements?

There's no evidence at all of that.

If 'no evidence at all ' means 'rather a lot', you are right. The D7000 sensor has unprecedented DR and better efficiency than any Canon sensor.
--
Bob

MM1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,504
Re: My 17 AF points...

According to the threaded view this seems to be a reply to my posting, so I'll reply...

Keith Reeder wrote:

...Are better than the vast majority of the 45 AF points in any 1D prior to the Mk IV.

Well, given they're cross all the time, you're right. Although their L and T shapes aren't quite nice either.

You can't actually be so gullible as to automatically associate "more" with "better", can you?

No, I'm not. It's also what's behind the sensor. And the whole system. Sometimes even Canon stabs you in the back as non-1D user. For example, AF assist light works differently for the central sensor illumination on 1D and the rest of the cameras, giving 1D a better performance (tested 400D, 40D, 7D vs 1D2n).

We killed that notion when we were arguing about the 40D vs. the D300!

Added : Just looked at your website. One decent AF point would do you, so - please - just give it a rest...

My website? I'm not sure that I ever put a link in here. The search doesn't find it.

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rcower Senior Member • Posts: 1,393
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

Peter 13 wrote:

An exciting news. My hope is that Canon will have no choice but to follow suit.

Whatever the 5d3 is now is what it is, the design criteria of it were nailed down a long time ago.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,881
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

rcower wrote:

Peter 13 wrote:

An exciting news. My hope is that Canon will have no choice but to follow suit.

Whatever the 5d3 is now is what it is, the design criteria of it were nailed down a long time ago.

Yeah, but most likely Canon knew what Nikon was going to do a long time ago, and vice versa.
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Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,881
Re: My 17 AF points...

MM1 wrote:

According to the threaded view this seems to be a reply to my posting, so I'll reply...

Keith Reeder wrote:

...Are better than the vast majority of the 45 AF points in any 1D prior to the Mk IV.

Well, given they're cross all the time, you're right.

They just need to chill a little.
--
Bob

Peter 13 Veteran Member • Posts: 8,301
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

rcower wrote:

Peter 13 wrote:

An exciting news. My hope is that Canon will have no choice but to follow suit.

Whatever the 5d3 is now is what it is, the design criteria of it were nailed down a long time ago.

I am sure Canon knew what was cooking in Nikon's kitchen a long time ago.

Skip M Veteran Member • Posts: 7,174
Re: Ummm...

Vivid1 wrote:

Skip M wrote:

If Canon responds with a mkIII that doesn't do any more than it does now, but puts all the 7D and 60D improvements on board with a 32mp sensor, how does that come out worse than the D800?

I was rather hoping for marked improvements on the sensor design - something similar to what Sony/Nikon did with the d7000. Also, I think we expect better AF and more 1d-like body design - nothing less than what Nikon has done with the d700 and most certainly the d800. Remember this time around Canon might not have the 'high resolution boasting rights'.

I'm guessing that some major improvements need to be implemented to go beyond the current pixel counts. I'm also guessing we'll get better AF, Canon can't afford to have its junior flagship lag behind its crop sensor brethren. A lot of us don't want a 1D like body, the ergo of the smaller bodies suits us just fine, and if it looked like a 1D and acted like a 1D, it would be a 1D.

The new Sony/Nikon sensor is very cool, but I'm not sure that Canon can go there, what with patent protections and Canon has shown theirselves to be very reluctant to license technology from other sources. They will have to do something, however, just to keep their heads above technological water.
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OP Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 42,852
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

Skip M wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

The rumor is a 4FPS camera with a 36MP Sony Exmor FX sensor using the D7000 pixel design. I hope Canon will compete well with the 5D3, 'cause I can't afford to switch, I like my lenses, and that sensor is pretty much exactly what the doctor ordered (along with Nikon's famous AF).

What happens to you if Canon doesn't come up with an equivalent?

I'm thinking nothing will happen to me at all. Do you know something I don't?

Will your photos look worse than they do now?

Of course not. My photos will look the same. But, that's pretty much the point, isn't it? I want to take better photos in more exteme conditions.

Will your clients desert you in droves?

If I were a pro (which I'm not), and my competitors all had the same skills I had, but they had the better camera, then, sure, it could cost me.

Will your car blow up, your wife (if you have one) leave you and you'll become a statistic?

Not really connected to a camera, methinks.

In the greater scheme of things, it's not that important...

Well, sure. So, what am I doing with a 5D and L primes, then? My phone has a camera, after all. But, in the lesser scheme of things, I'd like to know that the company that makes cameras that my lenses will work on is aware that they do have competition.

amobi
amobi Veteran Member • Posts: 3,116
Re: Ummm...

I know it won't be long before you hijack this thread. All it takes is to mention 7D and you will hover like a vulture.

Keith Reeder wrote:

Vivid1 wrote:

I was rather hoping for marked improvements on the sensor design - something similar to what Sony/Nikon did with the d7000.

" Marked " improvements?

There's no evidence at all of that.

Skip M Veteran Member • Posts: 7,174
Re: Yikes! The rumored Nikon D800.

Great Bustard wrote:

Skip M wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

The rumor is a 4FPS camera with a 36MP Sony Exmor FX sensor using the D7000 pixel design. I hope Canon will compete well with the 5D3, 'cause I can't afford to switch, I like my lenses, and that sensor is pretty much exactly what the doctor ordered (along with Nikon's famous AF).

What happens to you if Canon doesn't come up with an equivalent?

I'm thinking nothing will happen to me at all. Do you know something I don't?

Will your photos look worse than they do now?

Of course not. My photos will look the same. But, that's pretty much the point, isn't it? I want to take better photos in more exteme conditions.

Will your clients desert you in droves?

If I were a pro (which I'm not), and my competitors all had the same skills I had, but they had the better camera, then, sure, it could cost me.

Will your car blow up, your wife (if you have one) leave you and you'll become a statistic?

Not really connected to a camera, methinks.

In the greater scheme of things, it's not that important...

Well, sure. So, what am I doing with a 5D and L primes, then? My phone has a camera, after all. But, in the lesser scheme of things, I'd like to know that the company that makes cameras that my lenses will work on is aware that they do have competition.

You do seem to have trouble spotting when someone is speaking tongue in cheek, but you were the one who said "I hope canon wil compete wel with the 5D3, 'cause I can't afford to switch." The implication is that keeping up with Nikon is paramount for you. Thus my question, "What happens to you if Canon doesn't..." If you're not a pro, and not going to switch, what difference does it make? In fact, if you are a pro, in the greater scheme of things, what difference does it make? I shoot weddings and portrats, my wife shoots boudoir/glamour in addition to that, and we have not lost a single client because we don't shoot with the latest and greatest. Our competitors have equal skills, or at least some of them, and some of them have newer cameras (notice I didn't say "greater") but none of the tout that fact and none of them have taken business from us, or anybody else as far as I know, on that basis.

You're probably doing the same thing with your 5D and L lenses that I am with mine, taking photos...
I'm quite sure that Canon is aware of Nikon's competition without your help...

Keith Reeder Veteran Member • Posts: 3,725
Doh! [nt]
n/t
OP Great Bustard Forum Pro • Posts: 42,852
Speaking styles.

Skip M wrote:

You do seem to have trouble spotting when someone is speaking tongue in cheek...

Sometimes, but not this time. I simply chose to answer your questions directly, in this case.

...but you were the one who said "I hope canon wil compete well with the 5D3, 'cause I can't afford to switch."

I did.

The implication is that keeping up with Nikon is paramount for you.

That was not the implication. The implication was that if the rumored Nikon D800 was as stated, then that was a camera I would want to have, and if Canon could not produce something similar, I wouldn't be able to get the camera I wanted.

Thus my question, "What happens to you if Canon doesn't..." If you're not a pro, and not going to switch, what difference does it make?

The answer is simple: Nikon will be making a camera I want, and Canon would not.

In fact, if you are a pro, in the greater scheme of things, what difference does it make? I shoot weddings and portrats, my wife shoots boudoir/glamour in addition to that, and we have not lost a single client because we don't shoot with the latest and greatest. Our competitors have equal skills, or at least some of them, and some of them have newer cameras (notice I didn't say "greater") but none of the tout that fact and none of them have taken business from us, or anybody else as far as I know, on that basis.

That's excellent for you, as you can continue to use your current equipment and not lose business. For me, I'm a hobbiest. I want to get better photos than I'm currently getting and to be able to expand the range of circumstances where I can capture a photo.

Of course, this is not to say that my 5Dc doesn't provide in spades for me most of the time. But it is to say that there are enough times that it doesn't, that I want something more.

The 5D2 is better than the 5Dc, but not "enough better" that I felt a "need" to upgrade. The rumored D800 is not only "enough better", but I dare say, so much better that I don't think I would have the skills to make use of anything better still.

That is, the rumored D800 appears to be what I've been waiting for, and, after that, it would no longer be a matter of the equipment, but a matter of the photographer. That's not to say that I couldn't do better still with the 5Dc, but rather to say there are plenty of times it's my equipment, as opposed to myself, that is the limiting factor. With a camera like the rumored D800, I would only have myself to blame.

You're probably doing the same thing with your 5D and L lenses that I am with mine, taking photos...

I've been assured that the build quality is not sufficient to do anything else with it.

I'm quite sure that Canon is aware of Nikon's competition without your help...

You know, I really have my doubts, unless it's a new awareness that they are no longer on top. The 1D3 AF fiasco which helped Nikon leap in front of Canon with their D3 is a key point to support my position.

All this said, I really like my 5Dc and lenses, and really hope that Canon has an "acceptable" answer to the rumored D800. But, I really have my doubts. I'm thinking the 5D4 might be the camera I'm waiting for, not the 5D3.

In other words, instead of waiting a few months for the system I've been waiting for since before the 5D2 even came out, waiting a few more years. Bummer, really, but, as you note, there's more to life than taking a few pictures.

Skip M Veteran Member • Posts: 7,174
Careful, Part II

amobi wrote:

These Fanboys are already begging Canon to put 7D AF on the next 5DIII. What a shame.

MM1 wrote:

thelensmeister wrote:

id love nikon to release this cause then surely Canon would HAVE to put the AF techonlogy of the 1d series into the 5d successor (or give us a 3D).

Or maybe they won't HAVE to. I'm afraid they will try to get away with including 7D AF (which has unlikely roots in 1D AF technology), and the fanboys will still jump with joy and rave about it. 13+ years after 45pt AF was designed.

I am not a fanboy, but I do recognize reality. The AF of the 7D would be a major improvement on the 5D, (heck, the AF of the 60D would be an improvement!) and, frankly, if Canon were to put everything you guys want in a 5D mkIII, you'd have a 1D mkIV. There's no way Canon will do that, since it would pirate sales from a much higher priced camera or they will have to charge as much for a 5D as they do a 1Ds. You wouldn't like the latter, would you? I mean, if they put the same sensor, the same AF and the same environmental sealing (the things I've read demanded here on this forum) what's the diferentiation? A smaller body? So, you want all of the top level stuff in a package that's not as big, leaving less room in which to stuff circuitry. Ya'll don't want much, do you?

The EOS3 of film days was an abberation, and I don't think that Canon is keen to repeat it. A camera with a higher frame rate, the same AF, eye controlled focus (which the 1v didn't have) in a body sealed to the levels of the 1v's predecessor, the 1n must surely have cut into the 1v sales in a major way. Why buy a 1v? For the downloadable file info? A few more custom functions? The EOS3 was far closer in spec to the 1 series of the day than any of its progenitors, like the A2/E/EOS5 or EOS10s were to the 1n and 1, respectively. On the other hand, the EOS5/A2/E and the 3 debuted the AF of the succeeding 1 series. So, who really knows.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 60,881
There are more ways to skin a cat...

Skip M wrote:

The new Sony/Nikon sensor is very cool, but I'm not sure that Canon can go there, what with patent protections and Canon has shown theirselves to be very reluctant to license technology from other sources. They will have to do something, however, just to keep their heads above technological water.

Canon has its own column ADC patent
http://www.google.com/patents?id=NeYRAQAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA6#v=onepage&q&f=false

This was filed 6 years ago. I suspect the problem is a different one, this mixed circuit technology is something Canon has never productionised before, and it may not be that their fab has a fine enough geometry for these digital circuits. At least some of Sony's lines are adapted processor lines that they bought from Toshiba, which can handle that kind of thing quite easily.
--
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Vibrio Veteran Member • Posts: 4,004
do you really care what nikon do

I don't even care what canon do - I get along pretty well with the equipment I have so I can't see what any new camera is going to offer me.

Great Bustard wrote:

The rumor is a 4FPS camera with a 36MP Sony Exmor FX sensor using the D7000 pixel design. I hope Canon will compete well with the 5D3, 'cause I can't afford to switch, I like my lenses, and that sensor is pretty much exactly what the doctor ordered (along with Nikon's famous AF).

joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 5,159
Re: Speaking styles.

Great Bustard wrote:

I want to get better photos than I'm currently getting and to be able to expand the range of circumstances where I can capture a photo.

so your equipment is taking the pictures and not you

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