Embarssment: The dpreview "hands on" Nikon 1

Started Sep 22, 2011 | Discussions
003tvd Contributing Member • Posts: 935
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

For me (a camera retailer) the question is; "who is the target market?" and "does it hit that market's needs?". Will the P&S market embrace them as a "step-up" format for their next purchase? Is it different enough from a "bridge or super-zoom " fixed-lens model to sway purchasers from the class (including Nikon's own models)? Will those wanting interchangeable lenses without the size and myriad controls of a true SLR make the leap? Might the 4/3rds-leaning consumer see the Nikon name as their comfort zone, forsaking Samsung, Panasonic, Olympus et al? Life in the marketplace should reveal the answers once the product hits the shelves. As I don't see where the cameras fit into the current pecking order of "camera hierarchy", I'll decide to stock, or not, based on industry feedback, not hype.

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zackiedawg
zackiedawg Forum Pro • Posts: 28,592
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

mike_2008 wrote:

Someone else already has. Casio p&s from 2008 had these fps and fujifilm x100 has the dual AF system.

BTW Mike - I believe the Fuji X100 has a conventional contrast-detect AF system, not a dual system - there is no phase detect on the X100. You may be thinking of one of Fuji's compacts from a year or two ago that introduced on-sensor PDAF, unfortunately not as impressive in exocution or function as it sounded on paper, and DOA.

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CharlieDIY
CharlieDIY Veteran Member • Posts: 7,120
Re: Pathetic

Harold66 wrote:

wb2trf wrote:

The dpreview of the Nikon 1 is just an embarrassment. This is such a "drinking the koolaide" piece, it is just disgusting.

so you said . I find this smearing comments of yours uncalled for

Here is the truth.

Aaaahh aren 't we lucky to have someone on this forum who is going to give us the truth ?
pathetic really

Meanwhile this particular line makes no sense. It is the Nikon version of the Kodak disk camera, a marketing response to an engineering challenge.

this is another example of self centered comments . Because the concept is not interesting to you and me and maybe most people on these forums does not make a WRONG move

please stop watching at your belly button and you will see that not everything revolves around you and what YOU need or want

He hasn't got through the first layer of lint yet. He has to keep looking!

I've got no use for the tiny Nikons, nor for the Pentax Q, nor for the other versions that are sure to follow, but doesn't mean others don't have. In fact, they're probably in a larger group than those of us here using DSLRs of one brand or another. These people, though, follow my wife's idea: she doesn't like photos over 4x6, unless...they are framed, matted and hanging on the wall. We have a small house so an awful lot of shots are from her Canon A350.

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CharlieDIY
CharlieDIY Veteran Member • Posts: 7,120
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

Diopter wrote:

wb2trf wrote:

If Nikon doesn't incorporate this type of new focus technology and frame rates into their top of the line cameras, someone else will.

That's the theory of the free market.

In practice we have to deal with the soft versions of the market fixing scams difficult to prove. Please note, that the cameras such as today's S-95, LX5, or TL500 and another models based on 1/1.7 CCD had been suppressed by the entire industry for 5 - 6 years.

Ignoring the needs for the privacy protection of the recorded data is another example of the obvious industry-wide sub-standards.
(-)

Sounds a lot like the bushwah in the auto industry back in the late '40s, early '50s about a "100 MPG" carburetor. According to that conspiracy theory, the auto makers got together to buy out the inventor. Of course, it was incredible 100% BS, as are almost 100% of conspiracy theories.

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Andrew Westlake Senior Member • Posts: 2,928
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

mike_2008 wrote:

fujifilm x100 has the dual AF system.

I suspect X100 owners would love to have the hybrid AF that's in the F300EXR.

What is genuinely new about the Nikon 1 cameras, though, is the combination of fast on-sensor PDAF that covers a wide area (the Fuji system is centre of frame only) with fast full-resolution shooting. No other small camera can promise 10fps with continuous AF, or fast continuous AF in movie mode.

Of course, the sceptics are questioning who might need this. Which is subtly the wrong question - however those who might benefit from this capability are casual users who want to get decent, in-focus pictures of their kids running around without having to learn anything about camera operation.

If the Nikon system genuinely works (and we don't know yet), and if it ends up selling at a price these users are willing to pay, it may just find a market after all. Just not necessarily with the typical enthusiast photographers on these forums.

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Andy Westlake
dpreview.com

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zackiedawg
zackiedawg Forum Pro • Posts: 28,592
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

Andy Westlake wrote:

No other small camera can promise 10fps with continuous AF, or fast continuous AF in movie mode.

Probably best to word it 'no other compact mirrorless camera'...the Sony A33/55/35 are 'small' and can do 10fps with continuous AF - but obviously they're not truly 'compact' cameras.

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Diopter
Diopter Senior Member • Posts: 2,830
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

CharlieDIY wrote:

According to that conspiracy theory, the auto makers got together to buy out the inventor. Of course, it was incredible 100% BS, as are almost 100% of conspiracy theories.

Do you think Tesla is needed to privacy of your pictures and to lock the camera operations?

CharlieDIY
CharlieDIY Veteran Member • Posts: 7,120
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

Diopter wrote:

CharlieDIY wrote:

According to that conspiracy theory, the auto makers got together to buy out the inventor. Of course, it was incredible 100% BS, as are almost 100% of conspiracy theories.

Do you think Tesla is needed to privacy of your pictures and to lock the camera operations?

Try constructing a coherent sentence, on subject, and I'll try to answer.

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rocklobster Senior Member • Posts: 1,408
Imaging Resource has full set of studio test images

They also include RAW files that look incredibly noise free at higher ISO.

Cheers

Deleted1929 Forum Pro • Posts: 13,050
Technique and kids photos

I would point out that, from a technique point of view, firing off shots at 10 fps is not going to get you any more in-focus shots of your kids racing around the garden ( or even sitting still ). If the first shot was out of focus the odds are the rest are too.

Also, most so called out of focus shots are really shots with too much motion blur and/or shake. Faster shooting won't help that - it could even make it worse.

While good continuous AF sounds great, I think that if the makers used hyperfocal distances ( or at least wide depth of field settings ) we'd get more in-focus with these compacts than a fast AF system would.

And I've no issue at all with your Nikon J1 material that the OP seems to find so objectionable.

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StephenG

Pangloss
Pangloss Senior Member • Posts: 2,298
LOL! Exactly!

Excellent, Jay!

Jay Turberville wrote:

Why would a teenage girl with a pink fluorescent camera wish to shoot 10 fps of a motocross competition?

Because her boyfriend is a rider and she has a facebook account.

Any more questions?

:^)

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Andrew
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Pierre Daigneault Regular Member • Posts: 164
Exciting times

We are indeed living in interesting times.

We have Canon and Panasonic continuing to push the limits of 1/2.33" technology with longer zooms (thankfully they have called off the megapixel race and are now releasing lower Mp models), while we have Nikon releasing a new format and Sony finally releasing a full featured compact interchangeable lens camera with a built in EFV.

Whilst different camera will always suit different people, I agree with one other poster who mentioned that once you have to carry a kit bag, then the size of the camera becomes secondary. I have handled and tried many of the small, interchangeable lens cameras and really find them too small for comfort....like a matchbox with a can of beans on the front of it. Also most do not have an EFV and I hate waving the camera in front of me like a fly swat. Once I need more lenses and a separate flash, then give me the full size deal.

Kudos to Sony for putting a full featured compact with a built in EFV and APS-C sensor. Others have feared erosion of their flagship lines but have gone and done it (mind you at the price I don't think that it will affect their SLT sales).

I think that larger sensor superzooms must now be just around the corner (in my opinion, that is what the 1" system should have been).

As an aside is there any rational to the sensor size definitions? My understanding was that the dimension quoted was supposed to be the diagonal dimension of the sensor but in actual fact it is nowhere near it....what does the number actually mean??

Just my $0.02 worth.....

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PicOne
PicOne Veteran Member • Posts: 6,931
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

zackiedawg wrote:

Andy Westlake wrote:

No other small camera can promise 10fps with continuous AF, or fast continuous AF in movie mode.

Probably best to word it 'no other compact mirrorless camera'...the Sony A33/55/35 are 'small' and can do 10fps with continuous AF - but obviously they're not truly 'compact' cameras.

The question would seem to me to be how accurate does AF really need to be for small sensor compacts... the degree of AF accuracy needed for shooting a 35mm sensor 10fps at f/2.8 must be significantly higher than for small sensor compacts at f2.8, right?

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joyclick
joyclick Veteran Member • Posts: 3,028
Re: Exciting times

"I think that larger sensor superzooms must now be just around the corner (in my opinion, that is what the 1" system should have been"

This exactly is what I argued a day ago in another post.The 1" sensor is fit for a super-zoom,not an ILC.

It is a pathetic response from Nikon to the onslaught of the mirrorless brigade,aimed more at warding off the inevitable erosion of their bastion than making a sincere and worthy contribution to the format.

Gajanan
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Diopter
Diopter Senior Member • Posts: 2,830
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

It is not necessary.

Anytime when you try to contribute to a topic, they degrade the entire thread to the "Open Garbage".
Cheers!

Mike Ronesia
Mike Ronesia Veteran Member • Posts: 3,034
Re: Embarassment: "hands on" sub-standards

I have 2 concerns with the this new Nikon CSC (compact system camera).

First is the size of the lenses. If you look at the Nex which has the biggest CSC sensor, it also has the biggest lenses. Then you step down sensor size to M4/3's and you get much smaller lenses and then you step down again to "the 1" with an even smaller senor and you have lenses that seem just as big and in some cases heaver then comparable M4/3's lenses. My feeling is that the whole point of the smaller sensor is to give you smaller lenses and at least at this point, with the current offerings "The 1" fails in the system size category.

Secondly, and this may rub people the wrong way, but that 10MP is not enough for me. I am not a photographer by trade and as much as it might offend you pro's, I crop photo's when my lens is not long enough. My 16MP sensor gives me room to digitally zoom (in PP) and still keep my pixel density up high enough for good IQ. This is a common practice with us amateurs and the 10MP senor doesn't leave me as much room for this as I would like.

Other then those 2 things, I think this looks to be a very well thought out system and with Nikon's marketing skills might sell very well even if there are better systems in the same price/size/quality range.

I do think they are going to have to do some major selling to their target market to convince them that having 4 or 5 lenses to cover the same range as their current P&S is a plus. I went to a flow rider competition yesterday and because I didn't know how far away I would be I have to bring 4 lenses to insure I have the right FL and a lot of people don't want to mess with that sort of thing.
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Camp Freddy
Camp Freddy Senior Member • Posts: 1,719
Well said Andy, But....

I think you summate the impressions of the camera so far, pretty well, and although the troller who started this ( - light blue touch paper, run away never to return the blazing firework-) is over the mark , there is some feedback to be had from the less emotional here:

1) Your test gallery of street shots was really very poor. I would say the same for the NEX7 reveiw gallery. It makes it very hard for us to qualify the camera and easy, and I fell for that , to criticise when in fact we should level crtique at simple issues like choice of subject for the light conditions, composition and exposure ie photographer error.

2) some of the language used in the preview did seem to be very copy-paste from a Nikon source.

Nikon have perhaps rushed out a camera based upon real leap forward in fps and mirrorless AF. Reviewers should not rush about with such volume of images and chalk.
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Jay Turberville Forum Pro • Posts: 12,917
Re: Exciting times

I think that larger sensor superzooms must now be just around the corner (in my opinion, that is what the 1" system should have been).

Actually, I'm pretty sure the larger sensors make the superzoom more difficult to achieve - especially in a compact package. Take a look at the superzooms and you find that few have the larger 1.7" variety of sensors.

As an aside is there any rational to the sensor size definitions? My understanding was that the dimension quoted was supposed to be the diagonal dimension of the sensor but in actual fact it is nowhere near it....what does the number actually mean??

Yes. It is a system based on the sensor size you get from the equivalent Vidicon tube diameter. Basically, you divide the diagonal by 16 to the the "inch" reference. So the Nikon is approximately 16mm on the diagonal (16 16 = 1) and is hence a "one inch" sensor.

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Jay Turberville Forum Pro • Posts: 12,917
Re: Exciting times

This exactly is what I argued a day ago in another post.The 1" sensor is fit for a super-zoom,not an ILC.

Over six years ago I argued that a 1" sensor would be a very good base for a compact "EVIL" system. I guess we get to sit back and see who was right.

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Pierre Daigneault Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Exciting times

Thanks for the lesson Jay.....I appreciate someone making sense of the sensor dimensions for me.

I understand that larger sensor superzooms are more difficult but Fuji has managed with some intermediate size ones quite nicely. I mean we don't need 35x type zooms. Just > 12x say, and this should be possible with a reasonable size factor....maybe similar to a small SLR. I would really go for something like that......might even go for the Fuji as the best sensor for the current superzoom pack....but would prefer if Panny or one of the others had an offering.

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